Lies point us to the truth #2

peanutJelly

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If BR had made a childish attempt at staging before you as a parent found out what he had done, given the personal trauma, chaos and internal conflict you would feel at the time, do you really know how you would behave?!
Instinct is to protect both yourself and your(remaining) child. Would you really notice for exam if wrong size pants were used?! Seems like too much focus on how to avoid scrutiny. Afterall how long would it seriously take you to fake a ransom note to protect your living child while still reeling from the emotions of your youngest being deceased?! I’d deffo need all night to do this amongst my pets grief. I think we need to be thinking less in terms of black and white reactions and delving into the grey areas that most of us wouldn’t be able to guarantee how we would react unless we were in that situation
 

887sMtreme

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Why would John have left his flashlight with Burke?

Yes, even more to the point, why would JR have needed to use a flashlight to put BR to bed? There was no reason not to flip on light switches en route as needed, and flip them off. I’ve never understood that suggestion.
 

icedtea4me

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Yes, even more to the point, why would JR have needed to use a flashlight to put BR to bed? There was no reason not to flip on light switches en route as needed, and flip them off. I’ve never understood that suggestion.

This is what was written in the first chapter of LHP's "book":

Patsy confided to me that she did not enjoy having sexual relations (especially oral sex) with John.

After beating around the bush, Patsy finally asked me for help. Did I have any suggestions? She wanted to enjoy sex with John, but she just couldn't bring herself to do it.

Especially not oral sex.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRa..._hoffmanpugh_started_to_write_a_book_here_is/

The circumference of the flashlight is nearly identical to that of an adult male erect penis. I'd willingly bet everything I own that John was caught by Patsy using the flashlight on JonBenet to simulate such an act.
 

UKGuy

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Yes, even more to the point, why would JR have needed to use a flashlight to put BR to bed? There was no reason not to flip on light switches en route as needed, and flip them off. I’ve never understood that suggestion.

887sMtreme,
You know that, BPD know that, JR knows that, so why bother telling everyone he used the flashlight to put Burke to bed?


Can only be he is actively giving someone an alibi wrt the flashlight.

Is it himself, Burke or Patsy?

JR allegedly told this version of events to Dr. Phil as broadcast material, i.e it looks to me as if it is a postmortem revision of events.

Most likely because prelease material from the unaired CBS Documentary had uncovered a link between Burke Ramsey and the Flashlight.

This must be a verifiable forensic link otherwise JR would never attempt to preemp it using Dr. Phil's TV series.

Linking the flashlight directly to JR would surprise nobody, as it is his anyway, also Patsy is deceased, so who is left to protect?

.
 

UKGuy

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This is what was written in the first chapter of LHP's "book":

Patsy confided to me that she did not enjoy having sexual relations (especially oral sex) with John.

After beating around the bush, Patsy finally asked me for help. Did I have any suggestions? She wanted to enjoy sex with John, but she just couldn't bring herself to do it.

Especially not oral sex.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRa..._hoffmanpugh_started_to_write_a_book_here_is/

The circumference of the flashlight is nearly identical to that of an adult male erect penis. I'd willingly bet everything I own that John was caught by Patsy using the flashlight on JonBenet to simulate such an act.

icedtea4me,
Nope, that does not make any sense at all. John was that fixated on fellatio he transferred his desires onto JonBenet substituting a flashlight for his unknown circumference?

Some nasty stuff might have been happening to JonBenet but swallowing a flashlight is way down on my list of options.

Here is a better explanation:
As per Patsy, the bedroom ceiling light in JonBenet's bedroom was not working, so she normally used the bedside lamp (new from Bloomingdale's).

Knowing JonBenet's bedroom would be in darkness initially, Burke Ramsey used the flashlight to navigate JonBenet's bedroom, after consuming pineapple and drinking tea, etc.

When the parents or Burke were cleaning the crime-scene up they simply used the flashlight to move about the basement then left in the kitchen?

.
 

Rain on my Parade

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it does happen, but rarely, if ever, in homicide cases.

Usually the crime-scene is sealed and that's that.

Patently one of the red flags in this case, it tells us it's not a simple IDI, open and shut case.

UKGuy,
Any cases you can think of (for reference) where a police car was filled to the brim with items removed from a homicide case by a family remember and then taken to a fast food restaurant (drive thru) and the cops paid for the meal? And of course there was no Intruder. We both know that as fact. If there was anyone else involved they were invited in.

I doubt that. More likely a room upstairs. If Burke dragged JonBenet on any carpeted part of the basement this might inflict abrasions?

My money is on a room upstairs. JonBenet's bedroom is a mess, is this because it's the original crime-scene or a variant staging?

Not as messy as the basement floor!
If the crime started upstairs … That would make for a lot of carpet burns! The mark below her ear looks like a burn to me, not a bruise. As the precise edges of the blood pool on the left side below her throat looks like a knuckle choke hold impression not an abrasion, MOO. I also question the stun gun theory. Didn’t Kolar state they matched the train tracks? That would have probably taken place in the basement. So would that be considered staging?

Well Kolar states there are multiple partial dna profiles in the underwear bloodstain. so everything is on the table.

To move forward you have to rule out dna environmental deposition.

This will be difficult as all the dna lab results have not been published.

There is something to hide and remains hidden in those size 12 bloomies.

What role does the scarf play in the staging or JonBenet's homicide, i.e. what is the percentage?

Well let’s see: Your 6 year old daughter has just been brutally murdered and SA in your home. You find her. Why would your last parting gift to her be; a scarf? If the scarf had special meaning between them I wonder if JB also gave her father one as a Christmas gift? To answer your question further it may not have been part of the staging but used as the initial choking of JB.

JR never knew that Fleet White had visited the basement before he did that morning, this was revealed in one of JR's BPD interviews.

Or, so he said. This doesn’t make it truth.
I believe some of the things the Ramsey’s reported were part of the crime scene and others were completely fabricated and then there is the Ramnesia.
Considering BR, his lack of remorse for JB, I have often wondered if he didn’t receive an electric shock procedure to erase his memory e.g. ‘One flew over the Cuckoo's nest’. Nope, instead he was excited in thinking that the media was seeking his presence at school via his friends. He was happy, not sad! Besides, he knew nothing not even his presence during the 911 call?

Fleet White searched about the basement moving some items as he looked, he would be able to confirm to BPD any claims made by JR. To date Fleet White's BPD interview has never been released, suggesting he is a police witness?

Also Fleet White attended Burke Ramsey's bedroom, helping him by making his bed and generally tidying up. Later he assisted in moving Burke out of the house ASAP at JR's request.

So Fleet White saw a lot, more than some police officers.

He returned to the wine-cellar directly after JR lifted JonBenet upstairs, searching, observing patently looking for answers.

IMO, Fleet White knows who killed JonBenet!

This is why JR unleashed a media campaign against him, labelling him a suspect.

Absolute reasons for the riff displayed in Atlanta.

Self evidently because the case is BDI. Meaning Burke is protected by Colorado Statute.

I believe we have had this discussion before and you stated that BR could be held accountable with his lawsuits and Dr. Phil statements should new light be shined upon the circumstances. So, probably not completely protected since he was 2 weeks shy from being held accountable.
 

icedtea4me

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icedtea4me,
Nope, that does not make any sense at all. John was that fixated on fellatio he transferred his desires onto JonBenet substituting a flashlight for his unknown circumference?

Some nasty stuff might have been happening to JonBenet but swallowing a flashlight is way down on my list of options.

Here is a better explanation:
As per Patsy, the bedroom ceiling light in JonBenet's bedroom was not working, so she normally used the bedside lamp (new from Bloomingdale's).

Knowing JonBenet's bedroom would be in darkness initially, Burke Ramsey used the flashlight to navigate JonBenet's bedroom, after consuming pineapple and drinking tea, etc.

When the parents or Burke were cleaning the crime-scene up they simply used the flashlight to move about the basement then left in the kitchen?

.

0024

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out

2 or done something and the light was on here.

3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light

4 was on here?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.

6 Yes. I was working there.

7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it

8 on?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

10 That could have been one that was left on, I

11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.

12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).

14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall

15 that morning coming down into the dark or --

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your

18 recollection, it was on, you think?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either

20 that light was on or there were also some

21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were

22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,

23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort

24 of lighting area.

There would've been no need for Burke to have needed to use a flashlight to see in JonBenet's room.

(You know, unlike you, I'm willing to bet everything I own on Patsy catching John and JonBenet together.)
 

Rain on my Parade

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The circumference of the flashlight is nearly identical to that of an adult male erect penis. I'd willingly bet everything I own that John was caught by Patsy using the flashlight on JonBenet to simulate such an act.

icedtea4me,
Please, I ignored the above quote in the beginning but you and UK Guy’s conversation had me intrigued. You failed to enter IMOO.

icedtea4me,
Nope, that does not make any sense at all. John was that fixated on fellatio he transferred his desires onto JonBenet substituting a flashlight for his unknown circumference?

Some nasty stuff might have been happening to JonBenet but swallowing a flashlight is way down on my list of options.

UKGuy,
Smiling.

Here is a better explanation:
As per Patsy, the bedroom ceiling light in JonBenet's bedroom was not working, so she normally used the bedside lamp (new from Bloomingdale's).

Knowing JonBenet's bedroom would be in darkness initially, Burke Ramsey used the flashlight to navigate JonBenet's bedroom, after consuming pineapple and drinking tea, etc.

When the parents or Burke were cleaning the crime-scene up they simply used the flashlight to move about the basement then left in the kitchen?

Conclusion: the logical explanation.

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out

2 or done something and the light was on here.

3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light

4 was on here?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.

6 Yes. I was working there.

7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it

8 on?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

10 That could have been one that was left on, I

11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.

12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).

14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall

15 that morning coming down into the dark or --

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your

18 recollection, it was on, you think?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either

20 that light was on or there were also some

21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were

22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,

23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort

24 of lighting area.

icedtea4me,
You do realize that we can not believe everything that came out of the mouths of JR or PR, right? Doesn’t it sound more like PR escape/explanation= cover for the light being left on in JB bedroom? Sure the sconces were always on. They helped PR and JR navigate their way from their bedroom to their separate bathrooms on the third floor.

There would've been no need for Burke to have needed to use a flashlight to see in JonBenet's room.

(You know, unlike you, I'm willing to bet everything I own on Patsy catching John and JonBenet together.)

He may have a need. He was a boy and sneaking around with a flashlight seems like a play amongst children; IMO. There was no overhead light in JB bedroom. Perhaps, it happened that way; although, I doubt it. Why would PR use a flashlight to navigate to JB bedroom or her basement? Off subject, but I wonder whose prints were found on BR knife?

icedtea4me,
How much do you own?

My apologies for quipping in.
 
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icedtea4me,
Please, I ignored the above quote in the beginning but you and UK Guy’s conversation had me intrigued. You failed to enter IMOO.



UKGuy,
Smiling.



Conclusion: the logical explanation.



icedtea4me,
You do realize that we can not believe everything that came out of the mouths of JR or PR, right? Doesn’t it sound more like PR escape/explanation= cover for the light being left on in JB bedroom? Sure the sconces were always on. They helped PR and JR navigate their way from their bedroom to their separate bathrooms on the third floor.



He may have a need. He was a boy and sneaking around with a flashlight seems like a play amongst children; IMO. There was no overhead light in JB bedroom. Perhaps, it happened that way; although, I doubt it. Why would PR use a flashlight to navigate to JB bedroom or her basement? Off subject, but I wonder whose prints were found on BR knife?

icedtea4me,
How much do you own?

My apologies for quipping in.

Re: Prints on the knife. So many questions.

Prints on the sheet metal. Prints on the wrapping paper and floor safe that was allegedly drilled out of the floor and taken into evidence. Prints on the cigar box. Prints on the cutesy photo. I can’t find the cutesy photo in any docu or publication. It’s only the one taken of JonBenet from the floor of the White home. Prints on the photos found in Charlevoix. Was the tripod a thing? Mentioned in transcripts? Prints on the basement toilet. Boot print on the toilet top by the crawlspace. Prints on the window sill. Someone must have touched it, I don’t believe there were no prints by the broken window.
Did they find anything when they drained the toilet. What was the soapy liquid residue in the vaginal vault, was it Tide? Were the Barbies naked or clothed? Naked like the life size Barbie in the playroom? What was in the tree outside JonBenet’s window mentioned by Jeff Shapiro?
The bare footprints in the wine cellar (where JonBenet last stood?), prints on the boiler tank, the boot prints in addition to the HiTec print. Also- I like how in the CBS documentary, the unaging and refreshingly straight forward Agent Walker is like, I came into the room and stayed over here (gestures to the wall) because the child had been deposited here for some time. I feel like he’s maybe saying, FYI, it wasn’t my HiTec print. Wondering if maybe some prints were from Mason’s boots though? 3:44 The Case of JonBenét Ramsey (2016) | WatchDocumentaries.com

What did BPD find in John’s golf bag? It’s not a stretch to go from playing “Introductions” - “Introducing, from Boulder, CO, JonBenet Ramsey!”, to doctor, to dance recital, to a Randy Simmons inspired photo shoot. I don’t know.
I feel like Kai or Big Luke were spotted by Joe Barnhill on Christmas.
 
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fr brown

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Much as I hate to interrupt the pornographic reveries, it was a common rumor--or maybe common knowledge--that John was having an affair with a highly-placed adult woman at Access Graphics (not the NYE invitation gal). Reading between the lines, this affair (if it was an affair) may have been of long standing. This is the more likely reason Patsy was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.
 
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UKGuy

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0024

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out

2 or done something and the light was on here.

3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light

4 was on here?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.

6 Yes. I was working there.

7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it

8 on?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

10 That could have been one that was left on, I

11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.

12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).

14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall

15 that morning coming down into the dark or --

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your

18 recollection, it was on, you think?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either

20 that light was on or there were also some

21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were

22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,

23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort

24 of lighting area.

There would've been no need for Burke to have needed to use a flashlight to see in JonBenet's room.

(You know, unlike you, I'm willing to bet everything I own on Patsy catching John and JonBenet together.)


icedtea4me,
Well I reckon you might be viewing way to many Penis Enlargement adverts?

(You know, unlike you, I'm willing to bet everything I own on Patsy catching John and JonBenet together.)
BBM: Nice to know you can read my mind, is that aspect not covered in someone's PDI theory?

If you are conservative your bet on your theory is only 50:50, not good odds, like IDI or RDI.

If you eliminate IDI and go for RDI then the odds are still 50:50, not good odds, i.e. Patsy or John.

If you allow for BDI then the odds reduce further to One in Three, 1/3, an even less inviting bet.

The latter bet is a alike being a contestant on 'Let’s Make A Deal' where you can win a goat or a car, so you pick a door numbered 1 to 3, then Monty Hall opens another door and asks if you want to switch?

Monty Hall opening a negative door for you, ( the goat) is a metaphor for us knowing the parents had True Bills levelled at them. i.e. it's imperfect information, but the odds say you should switch.

There would've been no need for Burke to have needed to use a flashlight to see in JonBenet's room.
Simply stating no need does not mean what you say is veridical.

It's Burke who decides if he needs a flashlight, i.e. JonBenet's bedroom ceiling light is broken, and guess what maybe he does not want the bedside lamp on, as Patsy might look in?

.
 

icedtea4me

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Much as I hate to interrupt the pornographic reveries, it was a common rumor--or maybe common knowledge--that John was having an affair with a highly-placed adult woman at Access Graphics (not the NYE invitation gal). Reading between the lines, this affair (if it was an affair) may have been of long standing. This is the more likely reason Patsy was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Yet, it was JonBenet who Patsy saw lying in a coffin when she took the lid off the box of the My Twinn doll on Christmas Eve night.
 

icedtea4me

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icedtea4me,
Well I reckon you might be viewing way to many Penis Enlargement adverts?


BBM: Nice to know you can read my mind, is that aspect not covered in someone's PDI theory?

If you are conservative your bet on your theory is only 50:50, not good odds, like IDI or RDI.

If you eliminate IDI and go for RDI then the odds are still 50:50, not good odds, i.e. Patsy or John.

If you allow for BDI then the odds reduce further to One in Three, 1/3, an even less inviting bet.

The latter bet is a alike being a contestant on 'Let’s Make A Deal' where you can win a goat or a car, so you pick a door numbered 1 to 3, then Monty Hall opens another door and asks if you want to switch?

Monty Hall opening a negative door for you, ( the goat) is a metaphor for us knowing the parents had True Bills levelled at them. i.e. it's imperfect information, but the odds say you should switch.


Simply stating no need does not mean what you say is veridical.

It's Burke who decides if he needs a flashlight, i.e. JonBenet's bedroom ceiling light is broken, and guess what maybe he does not want the bedside lamp on, as Patsy might look in?

.

At least the IDIs blame JonBenet's death on an adult. They don't have an insatiable desire to blame a 9-yr old boy.
 

UKGuy

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UKGuy,
Any cases you can think of (for reference) where a police car was filled to the brim with items removed from a homicide case by a family remember and then taken to a fast food restaurant (drive thru) and the cops paid for the meal? And of course there was no Intruder. We both know that as fact. If there was anyone else involved they were invited in.



Not as messy as the basement floor!
If the crime started upstairs … That would make for a lot of carpet burns! The mark below her ear looks like a burn to me, not a bruise. As the precise edges of the blood pool on the left side below her throat looks like a knuckle choke hold impression not an abrasion, MOO. I also question the stun gun theory. Didn’t Kolar state they matched the train tracks? That would have probably taken place in the basement. So would that be considered staging?

There is something to hide and remains hidden in those size 12 bloomies.



Well let’s see: Your 6 year old daughter has just been brutally murdered and SA in your home. You find her. Why would your last parting gift to her be; a scarf? If the scarf had special meaning between them I wonder if JB also gave her father one as a Christmas gift? To answer your question further it may not have been part of the staging but used as the initial choking of JB.



Or, so he said. This doesn’t make it truth.
I believe some of the things the Ramsey’s reported were part of the crime scene and others were completely fabricated and then there is the Ramnesia.
Considering BR, his lack of remorse for JB, I have often wondered if he didn’t receive an electric shock procedure to erase his memory e.g. ‘One flew over the Cuckoo's nest’. Nope, instead he was excited in thinking that the media was seeking his presence at school via his friends. He was happy, not sad! Besides, he knew nothing not even his presence during the 911 call?



Absolute reasons for the riff displayed in Atlanta.



I believe we have had this discussion before and you stated that BR could be held accountable with his lawsuits and Dr. Phil statements should new light be shined upon the circumstances. So, probably not completely protected since he was 2 weeks shy from being held accountable.

Rain on my Parade,
Any cases you can think of (for reference) where a police car was filled to the brim with items removed from a homicide case by a family remember and then taken to a fast food restaurant (drive thru) and the cops paid for the meal? And of course there was no Intruder. We both know that as fact. If there was anyone else involved they were invited in.
Not offhand. Patently the R's were given the soft-glove treatment.

Obviously a reminder that JR or his attorney contacted BPD for clearance.

A case can be made for JonBenet sustaining her injuries anywhere in the house. The basement only if it would compel Burke and JonBenet to visit there Christmas night?
Didn’t Kolar state they matched the train tracks? That would have probably taken place in the basement. So would that be considered staging?
Ah, but what folks are missing is that Burke had train locomotives and layouts stored in his bedroom, not everything was in the basement.

Well it's only staging if it's meant to deflect attention elsewhere, somehow that does not seem to be the case?

There is something to hide and remains hidden in those size 12 bloomies.
Sure, this is why they kept back some dna lab results, just releasing whatever suits their agenda.

To answer your question further it may not have been part of the staging but used as the initial choking of JB.
You suggesting JR should be the prime suspect?

Any fabric material could have been used to choke JonBenet, from the red turtleneck to the assailants shirt-sleeve.

I believe some of the things the Ramsey’s reported were part of the crime scene and others were completely fabricated and then there is the Ramnesia.
Sure but JR's and FW's accounts regarding where stuff was located might have varied, with FW saying he moved some stuff about.

Basically JR did not know what FW knew, more so as he interacted with Burke, relocating him away from the house, etc.

Nope, instead he was excited in thinking that the media was seeking his presence at school via his friends. He was happy, not sad! Besides, he knew nothing not even his presence during the 911 call?
Sure, much better to view Burke through the lens of a bad actor who is trying hard to impress, remember his question to a Police Officer, something along the lines: Is that a Rolex?

Basically Burke made a bad job of faking it. Look at his performance on the Dr. Phil show. So bad Dr Phil had to schedule another episode to explain away Burke's behavour!

I believe we have had this discussion before and you stated that BR could be held accountable with his lawsuits and Dr. Phil statements should new light be shined upon the circumstances. So, probably not completely protected since he was 2 weeks shy from being held accountable.
Absolutely. BR will not want any publicity after JR passes, especially litigation over his reputation, etc.

Any subsequent legal discovery process might unearth evidence of alleged perjury and catapult the Ramsey's into litigation recovery lawsuits.

This would cost loads $$ to defend never mind what would happen if he lost.

It would put BR on the stand answering some difficult questions.

Like Were you present or not when your mother made the 911 phone call?

This is why eventually it will be open season on the Ramsey case.

.
 

UKGuy

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At least the IDIs blame JonBenet's death on an adult. They don't have an insatiable desire to blame a 9-yr old boy.


icedtea4me,
Publish your theory, outline how it is more compelling than any BDI.

I've yet to see a consistent PDI , JDI or some combination thereof that explains away all the evidence and anomalies?

The good news we will find out one day who killed JonBenet, by then the case will be beyond cold case status.

Can you see BR popping upon the talk shows and doing his Ramsey Consultant on documentaries, alike JR?


.
 

Rain on my Parade

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