Lies point us to the truth #2

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icedtea4me,
Well as you can guess PDI is at the bottom of my suspect list.

She is never ruled out, but her forensic moves, e.g. not changing into clean clothing, etc demonstrates what her intention was and it was not aimed at herself.

Patsy as a mother was definitely dysfunctional, she hid everything with JR's money. Spending on the Paugh's via the Pageant budget, etc.

I reckon she married far too far above her class. She was never acquainted with wealth and all the cultural signals that you need to send, via particular high value purchases such as antiques, jewellry, art works, etc.

I cannot remember seeing Patsy carrying say a Chanel purse, or dressed in a designer suit, or casually remarking how she just purchased a nice Van Briggle ceramic piece, Patsy's taste had been heavily influenced by the pageant circuit, and it showed.

.
I was hoping to see Patsy carrying a quilted classic Chanel purse in her Jackie O outfit at the memorial service and funeral, but it actually might be a Coco Canal dupe or something that resembles the real deal.
patsy ramsey memorial service - Google Search

It’s interesting to watch this video again, now that I’m slightly more familiar with the players.

Burke chewing gum and grinning. Either Anthony or Doug looking very tiny and concerned. The Ramseys being physically and emotionally supported by the Fernies. I think I see Fleet? And I assume that’s Rol at the door?
But yeah. Not an authentic Chanel I don’t think. Not even a Coach.
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_Ch...Double-Flap-Bag-Small-Gold-Hardware-1991-1994
 

icedtea4me

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<snip>It is possible that he had train tracks in his bedroom to poke JB with. If the assault happened in BR bedroom then it could be considered deflection. The house was such a mess, those train tracks could have been anywhere.<snip>

I do trust you will be able to provide proof that all of the train tracks were collected into evidence.
 

Rain on my Parade

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I do trust you will be able to provide proof that all of the train tracks were collected into evidence.

Icedtea4me,
No train tracks were collected.

Yet, that didn’t stop Kolar in FF.
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRa...olars_train_track_theory_an_experiment_and_a/

Crime scene photos can be found by clicking on the here link:
Footage shows HO-scale two-rail train tracks on the basement floor. HO-scale tracks have different width rails that do not align with the abrasions.

The track pieces seen on the floor between the 00:24-00:31 marks in this video do appear to be HO-scale tracks, or some kind of two-rail tracks, though I'm not certain what exactly they are.

The train tracks on the table in the basement train room are Lionel o-gauge model. Crime scene video also shows what appears to be Lionel o-gauge tracks on the floor of Burke's bedroom, stills of which can be seen here.
 
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icedtea4me

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I was hoping to see Patsy carrying a quilted classic Chanel purse in her Jackie O outfit at the memorial service and funeral, but it actually might be a Coco Canal dupe or something that resembles the real deal.<snip>

Jackie Kennedy was married to John F Kennedy, who had an affair with Marilyn Monroe.




Burke chewing gum and grinning. <snip>

That was after a regular Sunday service at St John's Episcopal Church in Boulder on Sunday 5 Jan 97.
 

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UKGuy

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I do trust you will be able to provide proof that all of the train tracks were collected into evidence.

icedtea4me,
We do not need the train tracks to be collected.

That is only required for legal discovery if there is trial. Evidently if the case is BDI that will never happen.

Not unless he goes off the rails, could not resist the pun, and has to appear in court, for anything really.

There are photographs and eye-witness accounts available regarding the train-tracks, so its not as if anyone can claim they never existed so you cannot reference them.

Then there is Fleet White, remember him? What did he observe while he hung about Burke's bedroom?

So once again in this case, a particular theory, e.g. Stun-Gun, is ousted in favor of the Train Tracks.

It does not prove anything, its not a smoking gun, but it's 100% consistent with any BDI theory.

Its similar to saying the case is IDI because a stun-gun was used, and look the marks match this stun-gun model.

IMO, the Train-Tracks as an assault weapon are a non-starter in a PDI or JDI theory.

I also reckon Kolar could not expand upon his BDI Track Theory due his fears of direct litigation.

Yet he offered hints at other points in his book, as to how the Train Tracks played into his inferred theory.

One point of interpretation is the possibility of extended postmortem assault?

Consider how some think there was a lag between JonBenet being whacked on the head and her passing away?

Another clue is how JR supplies BR with an alibi by helping him construct some toy on returning from the White's, then again on the Dr. Phil show, JR says he used the flashlight to put BR to bed. Both of these claims appear dubious?

One aspect against the train-tracks is similar to that of the use of the paintbrush, i.e. BR would have to run down stairs and fetch them.

Which is why knowing BR had a neat collection of train tracks and locomotives stashed in his bedroom helps give the Train Track Theory legs.

.
 

icedtea4me

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icedtea4me,
We do not need the train tracks to be collected.<snip>

The train tracks would need to have been collected to determine if JonBenet's blood had been on any of them. The autopsy report stated that the wounds on her back were dried, rust-colored abrasions.

1. Dried = previously wet blood.
2. Rust colored = the color of blood which has been oxidized.
3. If there has been any blood on any of the tracks, it would've dripped onto the floor.
 

danablue1

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When I first heard about JBR I thought PDI during a toileting rage. The problem I have with that is why wouldn't she call 911 and just say she fell and hit her head in order to save her child.
If you believe BDI then the same applies, any parent would call 911 and deal with the other child later.
If JR was sexually abusing JB did PR catch him in the act. Did she go looking for JB with a flashlight and find JR on top of JB in the windowless room and meant to hit JR but hit JB by accident because he turned his head to see who was there. The coverup was done by both as a "I won't tell if you won't tell." Any thoughts?
I think it was an accident that couldn't easily be explained in case you need another reason for the cover-up
 

Gigiky

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Does anyone know if there was any sort of security in the neighborhood the Ramsey's lived in?
 

Rain on my Parade

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Does anyone know if there was any sort of security in the neighborhood the Ramsey's lived in?

Gigiky,
Not to my knowledge. Boulder is a very laid back town. The Ramsey’s had a security system in their home but they didn’t use it.
 

Rain on my Parade

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When I first heard about JBR I thought PDI during a toileting rage. The problem I have with that is why wouldn't she call 911 and just say she fell and hit her head in order to save her child.
If you believe BDI then the same applies, any parent would call 911 and deal with the other child later.
If JR was sexually abusing JB did PR catch him in the act. Did she go looking for JB with a flashlight and find JR on top of JB in the windowless room and meant to hit JR but hit JB by accident because he turned his head to see who was there. The coverup was done by both as a "I won't tell if you won't tell." Any thoughts?
I think it was an accident that couldn't easily be explained in case you need another reason for the cover-up

danablue1,
Sounds reasonable yet it doesn’t account for BR presence found in the wine cellar, or his knowledge of what took place that fateful night.
 

UKGuy

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When I first heard about JBR I thought PDI during a toileting rage. The problem I have with that is why wouldn't she call 911 and just say she fell and hit her head in order to save her child.
If you believe BDI then the same applies, any parent would call 911 and deal with the other child later.
If JR was sexually abusing JB did PR catch him in the act. Did she go looking for JB with a flashlight and find JR on top of JB in the windowless room and meant to hit JR but hit JB by accident because he turned his head to see who was there. The coverup was done by both as a "I won't tell if you won't tell." Any thoughts?
I think it was an accident that couldn't easily be explained in case you need another reason for the cover-up

danablue1,
Steve Thomas suggested a Toilet Rage too, yet it never seemed to add up, once you took a close look at it, e.g. size-12 underwear how come, or why all the redressing if it's just a bed-wetting incident?

Then there is Patsy herself, instead of staging herself out of a PDI she appears to stage herself into a PDI by leaving her fibers and touch-dna all over artifacts that are particular to the wine-cellar scenario.

Why would Patsy need a flashlight, she knew her way about the wine-cellar lighted or not?

Was JR using a flashlight or did he just flip a switch, there was one in the wine-cellar?

There are other rooms in the house where JonBenet could have been assaulted, e.g. any of the bedrooms which are warm, well lit, have inside door locks, as distinct to the basement which was dark, damp, and windy!

Why would you deny JonBenet medical attention if it was just an accident, regardless of how it happened?

If it was an accident, why was JonBenet sexually assaulted at the same time, there was evidence of prior abuse, so something other than an accident was taking place.

The staging does not suggest parental abuse as it is so amatuerish, i.e. Burke's long-johns, Patsy's niece's size-12 Bloomingdale's, ligature strangulation that was not needed, use of a broken paintbrush, why bother, the list is quite long?

The only theory that answers most of these questions is BDI, which also explains why Alex Hunter failed to file the True Bills leveled at the parents.

The parents should have appeared in court in their orange jumpsuits and leg-irons to answer as collusive suspects in the death of JonBenet, this is what the True Bills claimed, yet this never transpired. To this day JR tours the Media Studios saying he is looking for an intruder!

.
 

887sMtreme

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I was hoping to see Patsy carrying a quilted classic Chanel purse in her Jackie O outfit at the memorial service and funeral, but it actually might be a Coco Canal dupe or something that resembles the real deal.
patsy ramsey memorial service - Google Search

It’s interesting to watch this video again, now that I’m slightly more familiar with the players.

Burke chewing gum and grinning. Either Anthony or Doug looking very tiny and concerned. The Ramseys being physically and emotionally supported by the Fernies. I think I see Fleet? And I assume that’s Rol at the door?
But yeah. Not an authentic Chanel I don’t think. Not even a Coach.
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_Ch...Double-Flap-Bag-Small-Gold-Hardware-1991-1994


I am reminded of the comic put-down of the nouveau riche by “old money” people: “They’re the kind of people who have to buy their silver.”

Patsy was déclassé in every respect. Her pretensions would be laughable if they weren’t tied up in such a tragic turn of events. John isn’t much better, by the way.
 

Rain on my Parade

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I am reminded of the comic put-down of the nouveau riche by “old money” people: “They’re the kind of people who have to buy their silver.”

Patsy was déclassé in every respect. Her pretensions would be laughable if they weren’t tied up in such a tragic turn of events. John isn’t much better, by the way.


887sMtreme,
FYI …
The falling out of the Whites with the Westmorelands

According to the Ramseys, the dispute began when the Whites interpreted the southern hospitality of Ramsey friends "as a horrible display of opulence and ostentation." The Ramseys write that the Whites demeaned their friends.

From John's 1998 police interview:

20 JOHN RAMSEY: My brother
21 called, they were supposed to stay at the
22 Westmoreland's and they nearly got cross-wise, and
23 they're two of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
24 They wouldn't stay there.
25 They went and stayed at my brother's
0352

Patsy wrote in DOI:

After JonBenét’s murder, the Whites had arrived in Atlanta for JonBenét’s funeral the day after we did. They were scheduled to stay at Rod Westmoreland’s home. Each of our Atlanta friends had graciously adopted a family from Colorado to host during the funeral. As an unspoken courtesy, our closest friends in Atlanta were to host the Whites, our closest friends from Colorado. For some reason, shortly after the Whites arrived at the Westmorelands’, Priscilla got into a tiff with Rod’s wife, Kimberly, and refused to stay in the Westmorelands’ lovely home. The Whites said they would check into a hotel instead.

When I heard what had happened, I attributed the incident to the fact that everyone was distraught, tired, and easily upset. I assumed they must have had reason to be on edge, and I mistakenly thought everything would subside.

John also wrote in DOI:

As is customary in the South, the Westmorelands hosted a brunch in their home immediately following JonBenét’s funeral for family, friends, and children. Apparently the Whites interpreted this gracious act as a horrible display of opulence and ostentation. In the Whites’ view, the Westmorelands were acting totally in bad taste, a view which was not shared by any other friends in attendance.

It seems like even Jeff Ramsey didn't want the Whites staying at his house after that outburst.

From Patsy's 1998 police interview:

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Jeff Ramsey said he did not want them
12 staying with them. I think John Ramsey and my
13 dad somehow got them to stay in a hotel or
14 something. There in Montreux (phonetic).
15 Then my dad said, you know, I don't
16 know what day this was, all these days were
17 running together. But then my father said that
18 Priscilla called, I guess they were on their way
19 back to Colorado, she called, my dad had just
20 reamed him out, said that she didn't like what
21 she saw in Atlanta one bit. She thought that
22 everything -- that all our friends were, you
23 know, hoity-toity, rich snobs and blah, blah,
24 blah. I mean, just like crazy things.
25 I mean, you know, here we are
0080
1 mourning the death of this child, for crying out
2 loud, and she goes off on this cultural
3 ventilation or something. You know, it just
4 didn't, it didn't make sense. And then so I
5 mean my dad -- (INAUDIBLE) -- so way that was
6 kind of a little incident.

7 TOM HANEY: Makes sense.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: And then so I mean
9 my dad is one (INAUDIBLE) so anyway, that was
10 kind of a little incident. But I think some
11 other things happened that I wasn't really privy
12 to. I think John may be more aware of.

The Whites gave a different version of their interactions with the Ramsey's Atlanta friends to their favoured journalist, Alan Prendergast who wrote in Westword:

The situation deteriorated further when the Whites flew to Atlanta for JonBenét's funeral. They were expected to stay at the home of Rod Westmoreland, John Ramsey's financial advisor, but the Whites felt ill at ease among the Ramseys' "Atlanta friends" and alarmed at the direction things seemed to be heading.

"I'd never been to the South before," Priscilla says. "It was very different from Colorado or California. Very pretentious. Maids. Everybody was drinking champagne. I finally looked at the woman who was supposed to be our hostess and said, 'We can't stay here. You don't know what we've just been through, and you're worried about whether we're using your Baccarat crystal glasses?' So all of a sudden, we were the crazy ones."
 

UKGuy

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I was hoping to see Patsy carrying a quilted classic Chanel purse in her Jackie O outfit at the memorial service and funeral, but it actually might be a Coco Canal dupe or something that resembles the real deal.
patsy ramsey memorial service - Google Search

It’s interesting to watch this video again, now that I’m slightly more familiar with the players.

Burke chewing gum and grinning. Either Anthony or Doug looking very tiny and concerned. The Ramseys being physically and emotionally supported by the Fernies. I think I see Fleet? And I assume that’s Rol at the door?
But yeah. Not an authentic Chanel I don’t think. Not even a Coach.
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_Ch...Double-Flap-Bag-Small-Gold-Hardware-1991-1994

Whatsunderthenighttable96,
Patsy was never at the races when it came to adopting a socialite role, not that she was inauthentic or passe, just that she never had a clue, but wanted to.

I was going to list a pair of designer shoes that Patsy might ever have worn, in my last post, but could not remember any.

With shoes you can hint accurately at someone's character, not sure what would apply: a Model shoe with a musem heel, or a Christian Louboutin red soled high heel, the ones the designer called "Follow Me" shoes as they leave a rosette imprint behind?

I think a pair appeared in a Sex In The City episode remember that?

Folks with too much money or assets usually refer to those without or noveau riche as "They buy their own furniture", an understated or polite way of saying "I inherited mine", which is shorthand for aristocratic pretensions?

.
 

UKGuy

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The train tracks would need to have been collected to determine if JonBenet's blood had been on any of them. The autopsy report stated that the wounds on her back were dried, rust-colored abrasions.

1. Dried = previously wet blood.
2. Rust colored = the color of blood which has been oxidized.
3. If there has been any blood on any of the tracks, it would've dripped onto the floor.

icedtea4me,
Finding those would be a Smoking Gun event. Yet if the case is BDI and Alex Hunter acted with this in mind, it's no wonder particular crime-scene pieces never made it into BPD depository.

.
 

887sMtreme

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887sMtreme,
FYI …
The falling out of the Whites with the Westmorelands

According to the Ramseys, the dispute began when the Whites interpreted the southern hospitality of Ramsey friends "as a horrible display of opulence and ostentation." The Ramseys write that the Whites demeaned their friends.

From John's 1998 police interview:

20 JOHN RAMSEY: My brother
21 called, they were supposed to stay at the
22 Westmoreland's and they nearly got cross-wise, and
23 they're two of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
24 They wouldn't stay there.
25 They went and stayed at my brother's
0352

Patsy wrote in DOI:

After JonBenét’s murder, the Whites had arrived in Atlanta for JonBenét’s funeral the day after we did. They were scheduled to stay at Rod Westmoreland’s home. Each of our Atlanta friends had graciously adopted a family from Colorado to host during the funeral. As an unspoken courtesy, our closest friends in Atlanta were to host the Whites, our closest friends from Colorado. For some reason, shortly after the Whites arrived at the Westmorelands’, Priscilla got into a tiff with Rod’s wife, Kimberly, and refused to stay in the Westmorelands’ lovely home. The Whites said they would check into a hotel instead.

When I heard what had happened, I attributed the incident to the fact that everyone was distraught, tired, and easily upset. I assumed they must have had reason to be on edge, and I mistakenly thought everything would subside.

John also wrote in DOI:

As is customary in the South, the Westmorelands hosted a brunch in their home immediately following JonBenét’s funeral for family, friends, and children. Apparently the Whites interpreted this gracious act as a horrible display of opulence and ostentation. In the Whites’ view, the Westmorelands were acting totally in bad taste, a view which was not shared by any other friends in attendance.

It seems like even Jeff Ramsey didn't want the Whites staying at his house after that outburst.

From Patsy's 1998 police interview:

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Jeff Ramsey said he did not want them
12 staying with them. I think John Ramsey and my
13 dad somehow got them to stay in a hotel or
14 something. There in Montreux (phonetic).
15 Then my dad said, you know, I don't
16 know what day this was, all these days were
17 running together. But then my father said that
18 Priscilla called, I guess they were on their way
19 back to Colorado, she called, my dad had just
20 reamed him out, said that she didn't like what
21 she saw in Atlanta one bit. She thought that
22 everything -- that all our friends were, you
23 know, hoity-toity, rich snobs and blah, blah,
24 blah. I mean, just like crazy things.
25 I mean, you know, here we are
0080
1 mourning the death of this child, for crying out
2 loud, and she goes off on this cultural
3 ventilation or something. You know, it just
4 didn't, it didn't make sense. And then so I
5 mean my dad -- (INAUDIBLE) -- so way that was
6 kind of a little incident.

7 TOM HANEY: Makes sense.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: And then so I mean
9 my dad is one (INAUDIBLE) so anyway, that was
10 kind of a little incident. But I think some
11 other things happened that I wasn't really privy
12 to. I think John may be more aware of.

The Whites gave a different version of their interactions with the Ramsey's Atlanta friends to their favoured journalist, Alan Prendergast who wrote in Westword:

The situation deteriorated further when the Whites flew to Atlanta for JonBenét's funeral. They were expected to stay at the home of Rod Westmoreland, John Ramsey's financial advisor, but the Whites felt ill at ease among the Ramseys' "Atlanta friends" and alarmed at the direction things seemed to be heading.

"I'd never been to the South before," Priscilla says. "It was very different from Colorado or California. Very pretentious. Maids. Everybody was drinking champagne. I finally looked at the woman who was supposed to be our hostess and said, 'We can't stay here. You don't know what we've just been through, and you're worried about whether we're using your Baccarat crystal glasses?' So all of a sudden, we were the crazy ones."

I rest my case — you made it for me perfectly! Thanks. I remember those interviews. Fascinating, no?

The very idea of staging (!) a Champagne brunch for friends after the funeral of a murdered little girl is unthinkable to me. No wonder the Ramseys’ friends were appalled. Yes, some kind of little buffet after a funeral is common in the South, but it’s low-key even when we’re just reminiscing about the long life of a belovéd auntie. For something like the JBR tragedy, it would be solemn, just dear friends helping each other grieve with a little something to eat so no one passes out from starvation. If catered, it would be done modestly. There would be tea and coffee, not booze — unless the local fox hunters are mourning the passing of their Master of Hounds, when a toast with good whiskey or hot toddies would be in exactly the right spirit.
 
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887sMtreme

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Whatsunderthenighttable96,
Patsy was never at the races when it came to adopting a socialite role, not that she was inauthentic or passe, just that she never had a clue, but wanted to.

I was going to list a pair of designer shoes that Patsy might ever have worn, in my last post, but could not remember any.

With shoes you can hint accurately at someone's character, not sure what would apply: a Model shoe with a musem heel, or a Christian Louboutin red soled high heel, the ones the designer called "Follow Me" shoes as they leave a rosette imprint behind?

I think a pair appeared in a Sex In The City episode remember that?

Folks with too much money or assets usually refer to those without or noveau riche as "They buy their own furniture", an understated or polite way of saying "I inherited mine", which is shorthand for aristocratic pretensions?

.
That’s funny — “They buy their furniture” — very close in principle to buying their own silver, which is what I’ve always heard. But to clarify, really fine old families don’t talk that way. We just imagine they do, for comic relief. I know you know that. Just setting the record straight for visitors who might not.

The wealthiest people I know here in Virginia fox-hunting country (and some are freaking billionaires with huge parks and wings of museums named after them), have old, often ragged, things, and are quite frugal except on what really matters to them. They spend like crazy on their horses and good liquor, but lunch at their homes is likely to involve canned soup and a peanut-butter sandwich on stale bread. It’s odd. Most of them are very nice, soft-spoken. Their graciousness is real.

They’d have bored Patsy Ramsey to tears.
 
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Rain on my Parade

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I rest my case — you made it for me perfectly! Thanks. I remember those interviews. Fascinating, no?

The very idea of staging (!) a Champagne brunch for friends after the funeral of a murdered little girl is unthinkable to me. No wonder the Ramseys’ friends were appalled. Yes, some kind of little buffet after a funeral is common in the South, but it’s low-key even when we’re just reminiscing about the long life of a belovéd auntie. For something like the JBR tragedy, it would be solemn, just dear friends helping each other grieve with a little something to eat so no one passes out from starvation. If catered, it would be done modestly. There would be tea and coffee, not booze — unless the local fox hunters are mourning the passing of their Master of Hounds, when a toast with good whiskey or hot toddies would be in exactly the right spirit.

887smtreme,
Your welcome. I couldn’t agree more. Champagne is for a celebration not a bereavement event. Coffee or tea is more befitting Jonbenet’s funeral.
 

887sMtreme

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887smtreme,
Your welcome. I couldn’t agree more. Champagne is for a celebration not a bereavement event. Coffee or tea is more befitting Jonbenet’s funeral.

Absolutely. I should have mentioned iced tea, too. Anyway, this all possibly traces us back to what might have set PR off if, indeed, (as some of us think) it was she who caused at least the head trauma the night of JBR’s death. Was it some infraction of her bourgeois ideation of how her little beauty queen should behave? I could see that. Of course, it’s all speculation but that may be all we’re left with in the end.
 

Rain on my Parade

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Absolutely. I should have mentioned iced tea, too. Anyway, this all possibly traces us back to what might have set PR off if, indeed, (as some of us think) it was she who caused at least the head trauma the night of JBR’s death. Was it some infraction of her bourgeois ideation of how her little beauty queen should behave? I could see that. Of course, it’s all speculation but that may be all we’re left with in the end.

887sMtreme,

Since PR fiber evidence is all wrapped up in the ligature and deposited in/around the paint tote; I would surmise her participation here. Also, since the RN was written in feminine style, with her pad and sharpie (put back in it’s rightful place); I would say she has left evidence here as well.

Seeings how JB was SA on a “regular basis” I lean more towards a man/boy in the family smashing her head. After all this was the whole reason for the cover up.
 
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