Lies point us to the truth

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Rain on my Parade

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I do not understand why PR is referred to as being a Southerner. West Virginia may be south of the Mason Dixon line, but it is usually grouped as a Mid-Atlantic state. West Virginia became a state because it did not want to be part of the Confederacy, and separated from Virginia. JR isn't a Southerner either. Before the RN, I had never heard the phrase about the well-known common sense of Southerners.

proust20,
It is my understanding that this language/referral comes from the Paugh family. Just like fat cats.
 

icedtea4me

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Rain on my Parade,
Yes I think the pink pajama bottoms went the same way as the size-12's and JonBenet's worn size-6 underwear.

Patsy has no explanation for the pink pajama bottoms not being on JonBenet's bed along with her pink pajama top, just that the absence is why she dressed JonBenet in Burke's long johns.

If you think about it there was a lot of clothing which played some kind of role, e.g. soiled black pants in bathroom, fecally stained pajama bottoms left on JonBenet's bedroom floor, pink pajama bottoms, pink barbie nightgown, white gap top, etc.

.

The fact that the pink pajama pants JonBenet wore the previous night are missing makes me think that she was originally dressed for bed in the same thing she wore on Christmas Eve.
 

Rain on my Parade

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The fact that the pink pajama pants JonBenet wore the previous night are missing makes me think that she was originally dressed for bed in the same thing she wore on Christmas Eve.

icedtea4me,
It could be a possibility. What stands out to me here (if this is the case); is the Barbie nightgown. UKGuy, maybe correct in his assumption that the crime took place in her bedroom. The presence of the purple carryon (found in her room) would make sense in this instance. Yet, in the beginning it was noted that dark fibers were found on JB shirt, inside the body bag, on the blanket that came from the duvet. It looks as though something sexual was going on that night. And I’m referring to playtime here not the actual murder and sexual torture device.
 

UKGuy

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The fact that the pink pajama pants JonBenet wore the previous night are missing makes me think that she was originally dressed for bed in the same thing she wore on Christmas Eve.

icedtea4me,
Sure, I've suggested this before. This is how I reason there might have been more than one staging event?

JonBenet ends up wearing Burke Ramsey's long johns but we think she started out with the pink pajama bottoms, so what role might the barbie nightgown play?

Looks like the intention was to redress JonBenet in the nightgown, but for whatever reason that never happened?

.
 
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I think you're missing out on quite a bit by not having at least a used copy of DoI with you. In the chapter in which Patsy writes about JonBenet's birth, she states one of the names she was considering was Colette.

Origin of the name Colette:
Short form of Nicolette, which is a diminutive form of Nicole, a feminine form of Nicolas (victory of the people).

Colette Name Meaning & Origin

This ties in to the note.

IcedTea4me you just blew my mind!!! Nice find w the Collette ref. Agreed DOI is worth the read, as is John’s second book, where he writes that he told B he was a “good son” before tucking him into bed that night...
 
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Yeah Nedra and that bizarre and innaprop penis comment. It’s a shame we didn’t get more from her No Filter Tour in the books. As far as I recall, she barely mentions anything of interest besides toileting issues/“dirtying” when talking to Detective Stevie T? She was not about to air ANY other family dirty laundry...
 

Rain on my Parade

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icedtea4me,
Sure, I've suggested this before. This is how I reason there might have been more than one staging event?

JonBenet ends up wearing Burke Ramsey's long johns but we think she started out with the pink pajama bottoms, so what role might the barbie nightgown play?

Looks like the intention was to redress JonBenet in the nightgown, but for whatever reason that never happened?

.

UKGuy,
I wonder how the nightgown ties in with the Christmas 1996 Barbie found next to her in the wine cellar. In its original packaging?

Part of the stage?
Who would do that do you suppose?

How much do you believe JB had to do with the crime scene; as found? Obviously she took part in the consumption of pineapple from their fridge. Somethings can’t be covered up. Things were over looked. Or is that brushed under the rug?
 

UKGuy

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UKGuy,
I wonder how the nightgown ties in with the Christmas 1996 Barbie found next to her in the wine cellar. In its original packaging?

Part of the stage?
Who would do that do you suppose?

How much do you believe JB had to do with the crime scene; as found? Obviously she took part in the consumption of pineapple from their fridge. Somethings can’t be covered up. Things were over looked. Or is that brushed under the rug?

Rain on my Parade,
IMO what you get in the wine-cellar is all staging, even BR's birthday gifts.

It's the outcome of dismantling a prior staging, this is why there are bloodstains on the nightgown.

If there actually was a barbie doll left in the wine-cellar, then it would seem like abandoned staging, since it would not really represent an actual crime-scene, only that of one fabricated to hide evidence.

If it is on the BPD evidence list or somebody credible can testify to its existence then rather than simply representing staging it might be a critical part of the case?

i.e. Did Burke Ramsey return back down stairs once everyone was in their bedroom and retreive a Barbie Doll intended as a supplemental Christmas gift during the upcoming vacation?

I reckon folks are looking in all the wrong places for clues. The breakfast bar was ignored by the Ramsey's, note the plural, as they all forgot about it, it meant nothing to them, evidentially it was irrelevant.

We know different of course, as the pineapple demonstrates JonBenet was awake after returning from the White's.

So along with JonBenet's two ponytails, the above assumptions, her missing pink pajama bottoms, which Patsy claimed were not on her bed when she put JonBenet to bed, we can assume JonBenet made it to her bed, wearing her pink pajama set.

Otherwise you have to suggest there was a prior staging that incorporated the two ponytails?

Things were overlooked, we know as nobody from BPD bagged the fecally soiled pajamas for inclusion on the evidence list, then there is JonBenet's candy-box smeared with fecal matter, again was this bagged and stored in an evidence cage? If yes, were there any dna lab test ran on the fecal matter?

It's as if the investigators know not to go there, as cross-referencing any dna-results with that of the Ramsey's might yield an unwanted match?

I keep returning to my original theory that there were multiple staging events, how else to explain the forensic complexity ?

They might go something like this:

Staging event 1: The basement.

Staging event 2 : JonBenet's bedroom.

Staging event 3 : The Wine-Cellar.

IMO the GJ should have leveled a First Degree Homicide True Bill against Patsy as there is enough forensic evidence to not only place her at the alleged crime-scene, but also on the ligature/device that killed JonBenet.

Why do I cite 1, 2 and 3? As there is forensic evidence linking all three locations, e.g. pink pajama bottoms missing from 2. Along with the barbie nightgown appearing in 3. And of course the blue samsonite suitcase along with other miscellaneous items pop up in varying places in 1.

The entirety of the forensic evidence does not match the Ramsey version of events. This can demonstrate that the Ramsey's colluded post-mortem.

Also if the holiday barbie doll is verified then it's possible it played a role in a staging setup by Patsy, using the doll and nightgown in a staged crime-scene?

How much do you believe JB had to do with the crime scene; as found?
Depends on what you think took place, e.g. JonBenet dressing up in barbie nightgown, etc for another family member, or did JonBenet join Burke down in the basement to fetch the size-12's, the doll or both, with it all tragically going wrong?

As the Ramsey's ignored the kitchen we can rule it out, leaving the basement and JonBenet's bedroom as the focus for investigation.

.
 

Rain on my Parade

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Rain on my Parade,
IMO what you get in the wine-cellar is all staging, even BR's birthday gifts.

It's the outcome of dismantling a prior staging, this is why there are bloodstains on the nightgown.

If there actually was a barbie doll left in the wine-cellar, then it would seem like abandoned staging, since it would not really represent an actual crime-scene, only that of one fabricated to hide evidence.

If it is on the BPD evidence list or somebody credible can testify to its existence then rather than simply representing staging it might be a critical part of the case?

i.e. Did Burke Ramsey return back down stairs once everyone was in their bedroom and retreive a Barbie Doll intended as a supplemental Christmas gift during the upcoming vacation?

I reckon folks are looking in all the wrong places for clues. The breakfast bar was ignored by the Ramsey's, note the plural, as they all forgot about it, it meant nothing to them, evidentially it was irrelevant.

We know different of course, as the pineapple demonstrates JonBenet was awake after returning from the White's.

So along with JonBenet's two ponytails, the above assumptions, her missing pink pajama bottoms, which Patsy claimed were not on her bed when she put JonBenet to bed, we can assume JonBenet made it to her bed, wearing her pink pajama set.

Otherwise you have to suggest there was a prior staging that incorporated the two ponytails?

Things were overlooked, we know as nobody from BPD bagged the fecally soiled pajamas for inclusion on the evidence list, then there is JonBenet's candy-box smeared with fecal matter, again was this bagged and stored in an evidence cage? If yes, were there any dna lab test ran on the fecal matter?

It's as if the investigators know not to go there, as cross-referencing any dna-results with that of the Ramsey's might yield an unwanted match?

I keep returning to my original theory that there were multiple staging events, how else to explain the forensic complexity ?

They might go something like this:

Staging event 1: The basement.

Staging event 2 : JonBenet's bedroom.

Staging event 3 : The Wine-Cellar.

IMO the GJ should have leveled a First Degree Homicide True Bill against Patsy as there is enough forensic evidence to not only place her at the alleged crime-scene, but also on the ligature/device that killed JonBenet.

Why do I cite 1, 2 and 3? As there is forensic evidence linking all three locations, e.g. pink pajama bottoms missing from 2. Along with the barbie nightgown appearing in 3. And of course the blue samsonite suitcase along with other miscellaneous items pop up in varying places in 1.

The entirety of the forensic evidence does not match the Ramsey version of events. This can demonstrate that the Ramsey's colluded post-mortem.

Also if the holiday barbie doll is verified then it's possible it played a role in a staging setup by Patsy, using the doll and nightgown in a staged crime-scene?


Depends on what you think took place, e.g. JonBenet dressing up in barbie nightgown, etc for another family member, or did JonBenet join Burke down in the basement to fetch the size-12's, the doll or both, with it all tragically going wrong?

As the Ramsey's ignored the kitchen we can rule it out, leaving the basement and JonBenet's bedroom as the focus for investigation.

.

UKGuy,
It appears that what most people were thinking was a doll was actually the FAO Swartz gift wrapping found by her body. Which leaves me to this ... what about the Swiss Army knife said to be found in the wine cellar via the Bonita papers?

As for the pink pajamas bottoms that are missing. Perhaps JB wet the bed and redressed herself in the Barbie nightgown. Nedra stated per the Bonita papers that JB would either change her cloths or climb in bed with BR. The sheets are said to reek of urine; although they were dry. PR could have just thrown those wet sheets in the dryer that night. PR did say she stopped off there to fiddle with the red outfit? The staging here could merely have been, the gap top and BR long johns. I suppose the Barbie nightgown got blood on it when JB was struck over the head. And deposited with her as a catch all stage.

I just watched Tricia w/Cynic and Cynthia. Cynthia stated that it is probable that JB would have lived a normal life from the head blow if she had been taken to the emergency room. When I was young, I was jumping on the bed, fell and busted my head open. They sewed my head wound up (w/out any pain killers) and my grandparents had to keep me awake. The injury also, cracked my skull. I still have a whole in the back of my head and the crack is still there. You can feel them both. I lived. Just saying.

What jumped out at me during this broadcast was the comments about the RN. I believe they stated that there were something like 284 similarities in the RN and PR penmanship. PR wrote her q like the letter 8. The number of times and style of the letter “a” before and the change after. Retrained mind. The Bonita papers also go into detail about PR’s personality. Bottom line was: PR wrote the note. So I wouldn’t say the kitchen was ignored because nothing took place there or wasn’t a part of the staging. There was the pen that wrote the note in the cup holder and then there is the infamous flashlight (no fingerprints on the batteries, how does that happen)? left on the counter and in the dining room there was pineapple. Step out immediately to your right of the kitchen and there is the notepad, attaché and a scarf. There was a question poised about PR purse. She walked out of her home that fateful morning with it on her arm. I remember observing that on the live news and in her fur coat. What mother thinks about their fur coat and purse at a time like this?

And yes, the Ramsey’s version of events do not match up to the forensic evidence. If as you say staging event number 2 = missing pajama bottoms. Then perhaps you are correct. They were found and disposed of along with the extra 13 pages of practice RN papers. Cynthia on the podcast stated that JB underwear was said to have been thrown behind a chair in JB bedroom. There was no chair in her bedroom, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t found. Interesting indeed. Evidence locker come forth!
 

proust20

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It does seem that the staging was a work in progress that encompassed changes in direction. The Rs had about five hours or so to arrange things, including writing the lengthy RN. This had to have been a desperate, frantic period. Given what happened to JB that night, one wonders how to access the rationality of decisions which were being made. Someone that night had already demonstrated a complete lack of control, which, in fact, necessitated the staging from the outset. Attempting to assign a clear, thought-out mental process to people who are acting out irrationally is difficult.

Obviously, the point of the staging was to cover up what had occurred. The Rs were successful in this in part due to the impossible jumble created within their home. However, the most important thing was to create a motive which would explain JB's disappearance. Thus, there is the RN. The motive stated for the kidnapping in the RN is greed, and, perhaps, revenge. And yet, nothing about the staging suggests a kidnapping gone wrong. There are no signs of a struggle anywhere. The Rs could not have asserted reasonably that they all had slept through any disturbance.

There were things connected to the staging that were unknown to the Rs. They did not understand the significance of the pineapple. Whoever dealt the blow to the head, could not have known that there would be no bloody wound. No one knew that several hours would elapse without BPD finding the body. The Rs did not know that they wouldn't be searched leaving the house on the 26th.
 

UKGuy

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UKGuy,
It appears that what most people were thinking was a doll was actually the FAO Swartz gift wrapping found by her body. Which leaves me to this ... what about the Swiss Army knife said to be found in the wine cellar via the Bonita papers?

As for the pink pajamas bottoms that are missing. Perhaps JB wet the bed and redressed herself in the Barbie nightgown. Nedra stated per the Bonita papers that JB would either change her cloths or climb in bed with BR. The sheets are said to reek of urine; although they were dry. PR could have just thrown those wet sheets in the dryer that night. PR did say she stopped off there to fiddle with the red outfit? The staging here could merely have been, the gap top and BR long johns. I suppose the Barbie nightgown got blood on it when JB was struck over the head. And deposited with her as a catch all stage.

I just watched Tricia w/Cynic and Cynthia. Cynthia stated that it is probable that JB would have lived a normal life from the head blow if she had been taken to the emergency room. When I was young, I was jumping on the bed, fell and busted my head open. They sewed my head wound up (w/out any pain killers) and my grandparents had to keep me awake. The injury also, cracked my skull. I still have a whole in the back of my head and the crack is still there. You can feel them both. I lived. Just saying.

What jumped out at me during this broadcast was the comments about the RN. I believe they stated that there were something like 284 similarities in the RN and PR penmanship. PR wrote her q like the letter 8. The number of times and style of the letter “a” before and the change after. Retrained mind. The Bonita papers also go into detail about PR’s personality. Bottom line was: PR wrote the note. So I wouldn’t say the kitchen was ignored because nothing took place there or wasn’t a part of the staging. There was the pen that wrote the note in the cup holder and then there is the infamous flashlight (no fingerprints on the batteries, how does that happen)? left on the counter and in the dining room there was pineapple. Step out immediately to your right of the kitchen and there is the notepad, attaché and a scarf. There was a question poised about PR purse. She walked out of her home that fateful morning with it on her arm. I remember observing that on the live news and in her fur coat. What mother thinks about their fur coat and purse at a time like this?

And yes, the Ramsey’s version of events do not match up to the forensic evidence. If as you say staging event number 2 = missing pajama bottoms. Then perhaps you are correct. They were found and disposed of along with the extra 13 pages of practice RN papers. Cynthia on the podcast stated that JB underwear was said to have been thrown behind a chair in JB bedroom. There was no chair in her bedroom, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t found. Interesting indeed. Evidence locker come forth!


Rain on my Parade,
what about the Swiss Army knife said to be found in the wine cellar via the Bonita papers?
Does it matter? On it's own probably not as anyone might have used it, but in combination with Burke Ramsey's footprint and his touch-dna on the nightgown, this suggests Burke Ramsey was involved in the staging, one of my RDI theories assumes this.

As for the pink pajamas bottoms that are missing.
JonBenet's pajama bottoms never vanished because she wet the bed, consider the urine soaked long johns and the alleged smell of urine on her bed, e.g. inconsistent staging, so bedwetting as a trigger does not fly?

I just watched Tricia w/Cynic and Cynthia.
Yes, the human brain is extremely resilient. Anyone who doubts this should take a look at this heart-warming story that has a happy outcome:
Boy Of 9 Regains A Brain
'Miracle' boy born with 2% of his brain now dreaming of playing football
Noah Wall was born with just 2% of his brain

Check the Post Operative photograph of just born Noah to assess how serious he was, is that not a tear-jerker?

Also USA Link, but no photographs. Boy born ‘without brain’ defies odds to live

Yes, thanks for just saying I'll quote you on that if I ever author a book on the case.

Yup, Patsy wrote the RN, its a no-brainer. She even compounds the evidence by removing her writing samples and using her other hand, e.g. demonstrating forensic awareness.

So I wouldn’t say the kitchen was ignored because nothing took place there or wasn’t a part of the staging.
No, you miss the critical aspect, from it you can infer who was involved.

What mother thinks about their fur coat and purse at a time like this?
Well, upcoming socialite Patsy Ramsey does, she has her public to think about.

JB underwear was said to have been thrown behind a chair in JB bedroom.
Sure, I've heard this mentioned before but nobody has backed it up with any firm documentation, e.g. CSI report?

JonBenet's fecally stained underwear lying on her bathroom floor exemplify this practise. They were rich and flash, so the kids grew up assuming other folks looked after them, even to the point of picking up their soiled underwear, i.e. poor LHP.

.
 

UKGuy

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It does seem that the staging was a work in progress that encompassed changes in direction. The Rs had about five hours or so to arrange things, including writing the lengthy RN. This had to have been a desperate, frantic period. Given what happened to JB that night, one wonders how to access the rationality of decisions which were being made. Someone that night had already demonstrated a complete lack of control, which, in fact, necessitated the staging from the outset. Attempting to assign a clear, thought-out mental process to people who are acting out irrationally is difficult.

Obviously, the point of the staging was to cover up what had occurred. The Rs were successful in this in part due to the impossible jumble created within their home. However, the most important thing was to create a motive which would explain JB's disappearance. Thus, there is the RN. The motive stated for the kidnapping in the RN is greed, and, perhaps, revenge. And yet, nothing about the staging suggests a kidnapping gone wrong. There are no signs of a struggle anywhere. The Rs could not have asserted reasonably that they all had slept through any disturbance.

There were things connected to the staging that were unknown to the Rs. They did not understand the significance of the pineapple. Whoever dealt the blow to the head, could not have known that there would be no bloody wound. No one knew that several hours would elapse without BPD finding the body. The Rs did not know that they wouldn't be searched leaving the house on the 26th.

proust20,
There were things connected to the staging that were unknown to the Rs.
Yes, this is what sinks the Ramsey case big time. Consider the urine-soaked long johns, just what did the Ramsey's miss here, which is another clue to who did it?

Whoever dealt the blow to the head, could not have known that there would be no bloody wound.
Anyone think JonBenet was whacked on the head first then strangled? The internal bleeding suggests a timeline, its accuracy not withstanding?

The Rs did not know that they wouldn't be searched leaving the house on the 26th.
Which is why Pam Paugh did her supermarket sweep of the house on her sisters behalf. Hint, hint as sisters did they share what was going on? I reckon so, which is another lurid strand in one of my RDI theories, unpublished due to litigation issues.

Once the BPD start leaking the evidence files so they can all supplement their pensions, folks will realize that there is more, much more to the case than everyone assumed!
 

Rain on my Parade

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Yes, thanks for just saying I'll quote you on that if I ever author a book on the case.

UKGuy,
Then I insist you also note that the injury occurred in the
Occipital Lobe and that I’ve worn glasses since I was in the fourth grade. Also please note, that I have tested in the top 1 percentile in logistics.

Sure, I've heard this mentioned before but nobody has backed it up with any firm documentation, e.g. CSI report?

Are you privy to all CSI reports in this case?

No, you miss the critical aspect, from it you can infer who was involved.

I would work the one person out that is not tied to the kitchen/dining room CS evidence. PR wrote the note. BR states he used the flashlight to go back downstairs that night (to knock out his toy). Work the case out from there.
 

proust20

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IMO the blow to the head was part of the staging, which was meant to distract from the SA, which looms predominately over the murder. In its function as a catalyst of subsequent events, the RN is a main prop of the domestic theatrics. The RN makes it clear that the FF's main motive is money. There are no pedophile motives apparent in the RN. There seems a peculiar gap in the underdeveloped narrative thread between the RN and the WC. Just how and why did the greedy S.B.T.C of the FF wind up with JB in the WC; and do all that was revealed in her autopsy, without any struggle? "Victory!" implies that the RN was completed in the house at sometime before the murder. But still, it was left behind meaninglessly on the spiral staircase, after JB was dead, as a hand written, self-incriminating oversight?

Anyway, PR, in an understandable state of shock, never managed to get a handle on the dramatic voice of the supposed kidnapper(s), and was even uncertain as to whom to address the RN. The person(s) doing the staging and restaging in the basement, and elsewhere, may not have been keeping up with all that the author upstairs was concocting in the RN? How many practice RNs? There is no reason to assume that whatever the Rs were doing for hours all over their vast house was well coordinated. It must have been utter chaos. How aware was anyone about what they actually were doing, under not only the stress of the sudden violent death, but also, the pressure of the clock, as the scheduled time for the flight to MI was approaching, which in turn was one reason why the ill-conceived RN had to be written.

Without doubt, I am in the minority in leaning towards the strangling preceding the blow to the head. The garotte was connected to the SA, which suddenly went Code Red. The blow to the head meant to make it seem that a wild maniac was on the loose? Or to mean that the killing took place due to some error in an attempted kidnapping? The pink nightgown may have been meant as an element in the kidnap story line, that was abandoned? The blood on it may have made it seem a useful prop that linked up with the blood found on JB's pillow?
 

Rain on my Parade

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It does seem that the staging was a work in progress that encompassed changes in direction. The Rs had about five hours or so to arrange things, including writing the lengthy RN. This had to have been a desperate, frantic period. Given what happened to JB that night, one wonders how to access the rationality of decisions which were being made. Someone that night had already demonstrated a complete lack of control, which, in fact, necessitated the staging from the outset. Attempting to assign a clear, thought-out mental process to people who are acting out irrationally is difficult.

proust20,
Great points! I guess that JR served his purpose here well then.


Obviously, the point of the staging was to cover up what had occurred. The Rs were successful in this in part due to the impossible jumble created within their home. However, the most important thing was to create a motive which would explain JB's disappearance. Thus, there is the RN. The motive stated for the kidnapping in the RN is greed, and, perhaps, revenge. And yet, nothing about the staging suggests a kidnapping gone wrong. There are no signs of a struggle anywhere. The Rs could not have asserted reasonably that they all had slept through any disturbance.

This paints a picture of PR getting even with JR and perhaps her father.
There were several abrasions found on JB body, which could be signs of a struggle.
They didn’t sleep through the disturbance. Great point. I believe I recall PR stating she could hear BR if he was rummaging around the kitchen from her bedroom.

There were things connected to the staging that were unknown to the Rs. They did not understand the significance of the pineapple. Whoever dealt the blow to the head, could not have known that there would be no bloody wound. No one knew that several hours would elapse without BPD finding the body. The Rs did not know that they wouldn't be searched leaving the house on the 26th.

I doubt there was time to consider everything. Except I didn’t feed pineapple to that child. I wonder if there was actually a Tupperware bowl in JB bedroom? PR could have served up a late night snack for JB as well.
Perhaps, JR nervousness was because they had failed to find her and now that was up to him. He seemed to rush straight to her when directed.
As for the R’s not knowing they wouldn’t be searched leaving the house on the 26th ... it makes more sense if they had already started legal/medical counsel before the 911 call. They were in control before the cops ever got there that morning. As a mother myself, you would be dragging me out of that house crying to be left with my child before they came to take her away.
 
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