Lies point us to the truth

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David Rogers

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I wonder if they could tell if she was strangled a different way and the ligature fashioned with the paintbrush added later.
 

UKGuy

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I wonder if they could tell if she was strangled a different way and the ligature fashioned with the paintbrush added later.

David Rogers,
Not 100%. The complicating factor is the head blow, as it accentuates JonBenet's oxygen deprivation.

If JonBenet's assailant had placed a hand over her mouth to prevent her calling out, thereby leading to unconciousness and possible coma, this might not be apparent?


Even a Choke Hold using a forearm might not leave any signs.

I've always assumed in any RDI that this is what might have happened, as asphyxiating JonBenet as a form of staging does not match either the crime-scene or the abduction scenario.

If the parents are ignorant regarding the head blow, as it was only discovered during the autopsy, i.e. this applies to JDI or PDI also, why not seek medical attention for JonBenet, why ligature asphyxiate her?

There is also the possibility that the Coroner and associated investigators, do suspect prior strangulation, but it supports their legal position to play it down?

This is similar to the foreign birefringence material found inside JonBenet.

The Coroner can obviously identify the material as he has the lab results which returned the DR (Double Refraction) value, yet he does not state what the material actually is?

Another example is whether JonBenet was sexually assaulted? Is the Coroner just following the rule book, or was it a tactic to minimize evidential information?

The parents might have simply been rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, e.g. initially JonBenet may have been partially ligature asphyxiated and staged as such.

As I've alluded to before they might simply have added the paintbrush handle to the ligature and tightened it to JonBenet's neck, asphyxiating her, knowingly or not?

Consider the possibility of a prior staging, located in the basement, that the parents revised?

This is what I think explains the amateurish aspects to the final WC staging?

.
 

SweaterGirl

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The avg. weight of a 10 year old boy is between 40 and 60 pounds. The avg. weight of a 6 year old girl is between 36 and 60 pounds. Both of these kids were on the light side of those numbers. BR was slight, gangly and not the athletic-build type.
The idea that BR lifted and carried JBR to the basement would require him to lift a minimum of 1/2 his body weight, and more likely 2/3 to 100% of his own weight. Not only too heavy for him, but asleep or unconscious, even heavier to carry. I just can't buy this.
 

UKGuy

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The avg. weight of a 10 year old boy is between 40 and 60 pounds. The avg. weight of a 6 year old girl is between 36 and 60 pounds. Both of these kids were on the light side of those numbers. BR was slight, gangly and not the athletic-build type.
The idea that BR lifted and carried JBR to the basement would require him to lift a minimum of 1/2 his body weight, and more likely 2/3 to 100% of his own weight. Not only too heavy for him, but asleep or unconscious, even heavier to carry. I just can't buy this.

SweaterGirl,
Well, in the years since the case made the headlines I also ruled out BDI, surely that is a non-starter?

Similarly for PDI, that does not make sense. I could not imagine a mother killing her own daughter.

The case had to be JDI, as surely it's a sex case, I thought. BR is prepurbertal far too young to be engaged in such behaviour?

Yet, as time rolled by the current forensic evidence does not support either JDI or PDI.

BDI offers a consistent explanation for the majority, if not all of the evidence.

There might be unpublished forensic evidence yet to see the light of day that shows the case is actually PDI or JDI, in it's absence I'm in favor of BDI.

As far as BR carrying JonBenet, who knows what he was capable of.

I'm only suggesting he carried her down, so to make the BDI consistent with BR fabricating an initial staging down in the basement, i.e. not the wine-cellar.

It could be, as some have suggested, that JonBenet was initially assaulted down in the basement, so no carrying was needed?

.
 

SweaterGirl

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UK Guy,
I know you are BDI. I am PDI but I was just reacting to the carrying down to the basement idea, not the whole case for BDI.
I still think JBR may have been lured to the basement, going willingly on her own, with the bait being her promised "secret visit" from Santa. This may explain also why there were presents down there, and even possibly why they were partially opened. Perhaps JBR was assaulted for the first time as she attempted to open presents. All of these ideas tend to make me believe PDI, and with predetermination. I say the motive was either self-preservation against the impending "mega JBR" intervention by her friends, or in sacrificial repayment she believed (and her Bible influenced her to believe) that she owed to God for his cancer-remitting "miracle."
I know, I know, no one here agrees with me on that. But the date of Christmas, the purple Christmas decor, the talk of JBR's twin doll looking like it was in a coffin, the Biblical passages about binding up the sacrifice...combined with PR's dramatic delusions...to me, strongly imply a premeditated effort. I wouldn't even be so sure that the RN and the practice RN were even written that day. I would expect them to have been written, and rewritten, in advance. Just MOO (my very unpopular opinion) and my personal thoughts.
 

claudicici

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UK Guy,
I know you are BDI. I am PDI but I was just reacting to the carrying down to the basement idea, not the whole case for BDI.
I still think JBR may have been lured to the basement, going willingly on her own, with the bait being her promised "secret visit" from Santa. This may explain also why there were presents down there, and even possibly why they were partially opened. Perhaps JBR was assaulted for the first time as she attempted to open presents. All of these ideas tend to make me believe PDI, and with predetermination. I say the motive was either self-preservation against the impending "mega JBR" intervention by her friends, or in sacrificial repayment she believed (and her Bible influenced her to believe) that she owed to God for his cancer-remitting "miracle."
I know, I know, no one here agrees with me on that. But the date of Christmas, the purple Christmas decor, the talk of JBR's twin doll looking like it was in a coffin, the Biblical passages about binding up the sacrifice...combined with PR's dramatic delusions...to me, strongly imply a premeditated effort. I wouldn't even be so sure that the RN and the practice RN were even written that day. I would expect them to have been written, and rewritten, in advance. Just MOO (my very unpopular opinion) and my personal thoughts.
I completely agree That has always been my theory as well
 

UKGuy

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UK Guy,
I know you are BDI. I am PDI but I was just reacting to the carrying down to the basement idea, not the whole case for BDI.
I still think JBR may have been lured to the basement, going willingly on her own, with the bait being her promised "secret visit" from Santa. This may explain also why there were presents down there, and even possibly why they were partially opened. Perhaps JBR was assaulted for the first time as she attempted to open presents. All of these ideas tend to make me believe PDI, and with predetermination. I say the motive was either self-preservation against the impending "mega JBR" intervention by her friends, or in sacrificial repayment she believed (and her Bible influenced her to believe) that she owed to God for his cancer-remitting "miracle."
I know, I know, no one here agrees with me on that. But the date of Christmas, the purple Christmas decor, the talk of JBR's twin doll looking like it was in a coffin, the Biblical passages about binding up the sacrifice...combined with PR's dramatic delusions...to me, strongly imply a premeditated effort. I wouldn't even be so sure that the RN and the practice RN were even written that day. I would expect them to have been written, and rewritten, in advance. Just MOO (my very unpopular opinion) and my personal thoughts.

SweaterGirl,
I still think JBR may have been lured to the basement, going willingly on her own, with the bait being her promised "secret visit" from Santa.
Sure she could have been lured to the basement, but why, there are nice, warm bedrooms upstairs?

I reckon Christmas definitely played a big role in the case, so everything is on the table here.

The thing about Patsy and all the bible theories is that she never seemed to come across that way in public, i.e. zealous or pious.

Maybe she was indulging in prescription pills, drank too much and took it out on JonBenet, but went too far?

the talk of JBR's twin doll looking like it was in a coffin
Sure, what about the doll ordered via, was it access graphics, JR's company? Something going on here, I'm going to guess BR trashed one of JonBenet's dolls, and the order was a replacement?

There is no smoking gun, so the only difference between your theory and anyone else's is how faithful they are to explaining away all the evidence, some theories do better than others here.

.
 

SweaterGirl

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UK Guy wrote;

The thing about Patsy and all the bible theories is that she never seemed to come across that way in public, i.e. zealous or pious.

(Haven't explored how to quote yet, sorry all.)

Patsy was a different person, moo, after her cancer "miracle" than before. It was she who termed it a miracle. It was she who cried "help me jesus" during the 911 call. It was she who begged God to raise up her baby like Lazarus. She also said something along the lines of, God has big plans for JBR, she was meant to help people, or something. As if to suggest her death had been intended for a purpose. As if the divine, and her debt to God, were very much in the forefront of her post -cancer psyche.
 

proust20

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Why JB was killed is the most important question. The evidence and staging flow from it. BDI usually features BR acting impulsively out of anger. Though, after this psychotic break, he coolly realizes that the size 6s and night clothes will be incriminating. In redressing her, he had to put the removed articles somewhere. The staging involves obliteration as well as substitution. If BR didn't manage to destroy them without a trace at once, one or both parents had to clean it up before BPD arrived, which adds time to the staging.

ITA that the RN is a pointer to the WC. However, BR's conveying JB to the basement already laid the foundation for the crazed intruder, before someone else wrote the RN for his benefit. After fracturing his sister's skull on Christmas night, a 9yr old has enough aplomb to devise possible deflective scenarios? The raging moment fades but is replaced with a homicidal focus? Make sure she's dead? Grab one of mom's brushes and make a good knot? At some point, BR alerts his folks; but, does he tell them what really happened? Mom - did you see my knife? Somehow, the SA has its part in the tragic events.

IMO premeditation is not likely; although, it should not be ruled out. The duct tape and cord were purchased possibly soon before the killing. These items were never found. The 911 on the 23rd may have been a rehearsal. The RN could have been written at any time. Esoteric references do pop up. The staging may be purposeful containing a ritualistic meaning?

If the first in the sequence of violence were manual strangulation, then all the rest is staging. The simplicity of this theory is attractive.
 
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claudicici

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Some of the things that makes me think PDI and it was premeditated the pineapple (prime of Miss Brody) decorating JonBenets room with purple, the coffin doll and I will never believe the ransom note was written after they found their baby dead I always believe Patsy wrote that before she did what she did and it is full of hints that it is all John's fault IMO she turned her baby into an angel and planned on reuniting soon
 

icedtea4me

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<snip>
I know, I know, no one here agrees with me on that. But the date of Christmas, the purple Christmas decor, the talk of JBR's twin doll looking like it was in a coffin, the Biblical passages about binding up the sacrifice...combined with PR's dramatic delusions...to me, strongly imply a premeditated effort. I wouldn't even be so sure that the RN and the practice RN were even written that day. I would expect them to have been written, and rewritten, in advance. Just MOO (my very unpopular opinion) and my personal thoughts.

I don't think that it was an intentional premeditation on a conscious level, but rather on a subconscious level.
 

Rain on my Parade

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Patsy was a different person, moo, after her cancer "miracle" than before. It was she who termed it a miracle. It was she who cried "help me jesus" during the 911 call. It was she who begged God to raise up her baby like Lazarus. She also said something along the lines of, God has big plans for JBR, she was meant to help people, or something. As if to suggest her death had been intended for a purpose. As if the divine, and her debt to God, were very much in the forefront of her post -cancer psyche.

SweaterGirl,
In 1994, Patsy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and became deeply religious when the disease went into remission. Her mother says Patsy believed she was cured by divine healing. Okay, so there is that. PR faced her own mortality with her prognosis. So it’s only natural for her to get more in touch with her maker after ringing the bell.

BPD Interview April 30, 1997
PR: Yes. I uh, there was some scholarship for winning Miss West Virginia. I can’t remember exactly how much and then at the Miss America pageant I won a non-finalist talent award and I think it was a $2,000 scholarship for that.
TT: I’ve got to ask which talent.
PR: (Laughter) “The Kiss of Death” dramatic dialog.
??: (Laugher)
ST: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.
PR: Your right.
TT; Was that, was that earlier?
PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.
In junior high school, she was also very active in the speech and debate team and participated regularly in that group.

Do you suppose she knew she would end up having a daughter of her own one day and that she would be forced into pageantry by her grandmother? Do you suppose she was SA when she was a child since her mother stated that all kids are a little abused? Do you believe PR was coming to terms with her own abusive past in the taking of her own daughters life?

Yes, the 911 call wasn’t genuine. Yes, she penned the RN. Yes, she called a house full of people over. Yes, everybody in the house rushed to see what was the commotion was when JB was found. While PR waited to be led to JB, leaning on her friends as in slow motion. She called the pastor. Why? Because she knew JB was dead. The RN tells us this. Yes, PR states she said the twinn doll looked like JB in a coffin but do you think this was a premonition or just a knowing? Or, do you believe she made it up and she never said it prior to the event?

Do you actually believe PR sacrificed her daughter as a lamb led to slaughter? It’s possible that she did; although I highly doubt it. There is to much evidence pointing to the remaining members of the family left in that house with her that night. PR did not act alone. Ask yourself what evidence points away from PR.
 

Rain on my Parade

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I wonder if they could tell if she was strangled a different way and the ligature fashioned with the paintbrush added later.

David Rogers,
I think this is a very good question. I believe it started out that way. There is the triangular bruise on the left side of her throat. Some say it was pooling. I have always seen it as grabbing JB by the shirt collar and twisting it; leaving knuckle impressions. It could also have been caused by the paintbrush prior to the SA.
 

UKGuy

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David Rogers,
I think this is a very good question. I believe it started out that way. There is the triangular bruise on the left side of her throat. Some say it was pooling. I have always seen it as grabbing JB by the shirt collar and twisting it; leaving knuckle impressions. It could also have been caused by the paintbrush prior to the SA.

Rain on my Parade,

An initial BDI could assume BR used a loose, unknotted ligature, with the parents adding the ligature to the paintbrush handle to mask it's original purpose?

If anyone can refute this, this would allow progress on the How aspect to JonBenet's death.

.
 

Rain on my Parade

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Rain on my Parade,

An initial BDI could assume BR used a loose, unknotted ligature, with the parents adding the ligature to the paintbrush handle to mask it's original purpose?

If anyone can refute this, this would allow progress on the How aspect to JonBenet's death.

.

UKGuy,
The parents could have added the paintbrush to the ligature but do we have evidence from the paintbrush that the parents added it to the ligature?
 

UKGuy

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UKGuy,
The parents could have added the paintbrush to the ligature but do we have evidence from the paintbrush that the parents added it to the ligature?

Rain on my Parade,

Well, Patsy's fibers are a good starting point.

Then there is the action of breaking the paintbrush.

I'm just assuming a naive BR staging event. So I do not see him needing to add knotting and break the paintbrush. His main concern might just be a ligature to explain away JonBenet's coma or unresponsiveness?

Whereas the parents have a need for a narrative, something they can recite to investigators?

I've always wondered when JR moved his focus from abduction to a general IDI, e.g. via Lou Smit?

It could be BR enacted his staging in JonBenet's bedroom, but the parents once aware of JonBenet's injuries decided to move her down to the basement?

The ligature/paintbrush is all staging it is just not required unless you have a narrative in mind. Not something I would ascribe to BR given his then age.

.
 

Rain on my Parade

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SweaterGirl,
In 1994, Patsy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and became deeply religious when the disease went into remission. Her mother says Patsy believed she was cured by divine healing. Okay, so there is that. PR faced her own mortality with her prognosis. So it’s only natural for her to get more in touch with her maker after ringing the bell.

BPD Interview April 30, 1997
PR: Yes. I uh, there was some scholarship for winning Miss West Virginia. I can’t remember exactly how much and then at the Miss America pageant I won a non-finalist talent award and I think it was a $2,000 scholarship for that.
TT: I’ve got to ask which talent.
PR: (Laughter) “The Kiss of Death” dramatic dialog.
??: (Laugher)
ST: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.
PR: Your right.
TT; Was that, was that earlier?
PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.
In junior high school, she was also very active in the speech and debate team and participated regularly in that group.

Do you suppose she knew she would end up having a daughter of her own one day and that she would be forced into pageantry by her grandmother? Do you suppose she was SA when she was a child since her mother stated that all kids are a little abused? Do you believe PR was coming to terms with her own abusive past in the taking of her own daughters life?

Yes, the 911 call wasn’t genuine. Yes, she penned the RN. Yes, she called a house full of people over. Yes, everybody in the house rushed to see what was the commotion was when JB was found. While PR waited to be led to JB, leaning on her friends as in slow motion. She called the pastor. Why? Because she knew JB was dead. The RN tells us this. Yes, PR states she said the twinn doll looked like JB in a coffin but do you think this was a premonition or just a knowing? Or, do you believe she made it up and she never said it prior to the event?

Do you actually believe PR sacrificed her daughter as a lamb led to slaughter? It’s possible that she did; although I highly doubt it. There is to much evidence pointing to the remaining members of the family left in that house with her that night. PR did not act alone. Ask yourself what evidence points away from PR.


Patsy was a different person, moo, after her cancer "miracle" than before. It was she who termed it a miracle. It was she who cried "help me jesus" during the 911 call. It was she who begged God to raise up her baby like Lazarus. She also said something along the lines of, God has big plans for JBR, she was meant to help people, or something. As if to suggest her death had been intended for a purpose. As if the divine, and her debt to God, were very much in the forefront of her post -cancer psyche.

SweaterGirl,
I feel like I owe you an apology for this post. The more I think about it, the more I realize you could very well be right. It could have been a case of PDI, with JR having to coverup his SA’s, and BR just happening to walk into the middle of this situation in the basement. PR enlisting Burke’s help in the coverup. As another member pointed out: throwing him under the bus. It’s all very tragic. The secrets hidden behind those doors. And the consequences.
 

SweaterGirl

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Rain on My Parade,
no apology needed! No worries!!! We are all just trying out hypotheses here.

Yes, I do think it's possible PR set up a sacrifice or mock-sacrifice tableau, with the cords and the bindings. She may or may not have meant to kill JBR, but I believe that was her intention and purpose.
As for the SA, I still contend that PR may well have been responsible for that as well. Cyril Wecht says the birefringent material found inside JBR "strongly suggests talcum powder" which to me is associated with prior cleansing rituals by PR, which could easily have been conducted with no small amount of incidental violence, given PR's frustration with the bedwetting.
I do also think it could also be that PR was reenacting memories of her own childhood victimization, if such existed, in myriad ways through, against, and around JBR.
I've always thought that BR stumbled upon the body, poked it with his train tracks, and seeing no response, either notified a parent or didn't. I don't believe BR performed the head bash, as I simply feel the force required would have had to be made possible and amplified by rage, fear, or some other type of adrenaline rush, and not that of a young preteen, or at least not this one.
Thank you for your thoughtful reading and reply to my post, Rain on My Parade, and please know I took zero offense of any kind. I enjoy the engagement of different ideas and so I am grateful for your earlier reply.
 

Rain on my Parade

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Thank you for your thoughtful reading and reply to my post, Rain on My Parade, and please know I took zero offense of any kind. I enjoy the engagement of different ideas and so I am grateful for your earlier reply.

SweaterGirl,
Your are most welcome. I also enjoy the different ideas. I have watched this case since day one. It is interesting how it has unfolded. I so wish for justice for JonBenét!
 
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