Lion Air Flight JT610 plane crashes in Indonesia, 29 Oct 2018

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by margarita25, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    The father of passenger Dr. Rio Nanda Pratama filed the lawsuit on Wednesday in the Circuit Court of Cook County in Chicago, Illinois - where Boeing is headquartered.

    He claims the aviation giant did not adequately warn Lion Air or its pilots of an unsafe design condition in its 737 MAX 8 aircraft.

    Lion Air Flight 610 crashed into the Java Sea shortly after take-off from Jakarta on October 29, killing all 189 people on board.

    Father of doctor killed in Lion Air plane crash sues Boeing, says design fault caused son's death | Daily Mail Online
     
  2. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    JMO
    Im shocked too with that article. So many things made my jaw drop.

    First there is this.

    "The automated system is designed to help pilots avoid raising the plane's nose too high, which can cause the plane to stall. It automatically pushes the nose of the plane down."

    Can you imagine being a pilot and not aware of that feature. Its no wonder the pilots on the previous flight were going down and up like a roller coaster.

    And I can just imagine how frustrating it must have been for the pilots. Plane taking an automatic dive and them not knowing why it happened. And when they tried to go back up and the plane probably prevented them from raising the nose as much as they wanted too. They were probably yelling WTF is going on?

    And then there is this

    ""It is something we did not have before in any of our training. It wasn't in our books. American didn't have it," said Dennis Tajer, a 737 pilot and spokesman for the pilots union at American Airlines. "Now I have to wonder what else is there?""

    "Southwest spokeswoman Brandy King said the new automated maneuvering system was not included in the operations manual for MAX models."


    I agree with him and also wonder what other new features they may not be aware of.

    And finally what struck me in the article is the "temporary fix" that pilots can do if they experience the issue. Turn it off.

    "They have increased pilot awareness, they have reminded them of the proper procedure to disable (the automatic nose-down action), which stops the problem.""


    I still say ground these planes until they figure out why the sensor failed. Or maybe permanently disable that feature on all the planes. Right now its a feature that can kill people.

    Remember the maintenance they originally did was because there was a problem in the first place so I cant put blame on maintenance crews

    'We're p--sed': Pilots say Boeing didn't disclose 737's new control feature
     
  3. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    7213F6B2-1E47-4F58-BA1E-ABC9F10859EC.jpeg

    Investigators and experts are uncertain why Lion Air Flight 610 plummeted into the Java Sea last month, killing all 189 people on board. But they are focusing on an automatic system designed to keep the plane, a Boeing 737 Max 8, from going into a “stall” condition.

    A stall can occur when the plane’s nose points upward at too great an angle, robbing the craft of the aerodynamic lift that allows it to stay aloft. But if the 737 receives incorrect data on the angle – as the same plane did on the flight just before the crash – the system designed to save the plane can instead force the nose down, potentially sending it into a fatal dive.

    What the Lion Air Pilots May Have Needed to Do to Avoid a Crash
     
  4. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Boeing Co. is trying to assuage 737 Max customers concerned about a little-known anti-stall feature that has emerged as a focus of investigators probing a crash in Indonesia last month that killed 189 people.

    Southwest Airlines, the largest 737 Max operator, American Airlines and United Airlines are among the carriers globally pressing Boeing for details of the formerly obscure system, representatives of the airlines say. The aircraft manufacturer first disclosed the possible link to the Lion Air crashon November 7 and has been working with the Federal Aviation Administration to figure out the appropriate remedies, from updating software to improving pilot training.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....mp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=googleamp
     
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  5. PrairieWind

    PrairieWind Verified Attorney

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    JeJu Airlines just placed an order with Boeing for 40 737 Max planes.
     
  6. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Boeing’s chairman and chief executive Dennis Muilenburg has vigorously defended the company saying that it no way hid a new flight control system called the Manoeuvring Characteristic Augmentation System (MACS) from pilots on its 737 Max airliner.

    In an internal company message cited by the industry website The Air Current, Mr Muilenburg disputed that Boeing had “intentionally withheld” information from airlines on the stall recovery system which is has come in for scrutiny after the crash of a Lion Air 737 Max 8on October 29 killing all 189 aboard.

    “That is simply untrue,” Muilenburg told employees in the memo. “The relevant function [of MCAS] is described in the Flight Crew Operations Manual and we routinely engage with customers about how to operate our airplane safely”.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....7-max-after-lion-air-crash-ng-b881027072z.amp
     
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  7. MsFacetious

    MsFacetious What a Kerfuffle...

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    It's just so Air France 447 all over again. I hate it.
     
  8. PrairieWind

    PrairieWind Verified Attorney

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    Its still very early in the investigation, but I agree that is starting sound a little like AF 447 in that an incorrect reading from a pitot tube caused the computer to take incorrect actions and the pilots were too confused to take corrective action.
     
  9. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    The Lion Air pilots were battling multiple malfunctions almost as soon as the doomed flight began, according to a trove of new data released by Indonesian investigators.

    They faced a cacophony of warnings that started seconds after takeoff and continued for the remaining 11 minutes before the crash.

    The alerts included a so-called stick shaker -- a loud device that makes a thumping noise and vibrates the control column to warn pilots they're in danger of losing lift on the wings -- and instruments that registered different readings for the captain and copilot, according to data presented to a panel of lawmakers.

    The data also showed that in the final seconds, the pilots were pulling back on the control column with a force of as much as 100 pounds of pressure.

    However, the data indicated that the plane was controllable -- the pilots had kept it under control for about 10 minutes before the final plunge -- and records from the previous flight of the same jet showed another set of pilots had an identical set of failures and landed safely.

    Lion Air Pilots Battled Confusing Malfunctions Before Crash
     
  10. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    Great article. Finally some technical data as to what was going on.
     
  11. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Breaking News

    A Lion Air jet that plunged into the sea, killing all 189 people onboard, was NOT airworthy on a flight the day before it crashed, investigators have found.

    The Boeing 737 had experienced similar technical issues on an October 28 flight from Bali to Jakarta, a day before the fatal incident en route to Pangkal Pinang from the Indonesian capital.

    The pilot of the October 28 flight chose to press on to Jakarta after shutting down the plane's anti-stall system, Nurcahyo Utomo, head of Indonesia's national transport safety committee (KNKT), said.

    "This is the basis of our recommendation to Lion Air. In our view, the plane was not airworthy," he told a news conference in Jakarta.

    Lion Air plane was 'not airworthy' the day before doomed flight plunged into sea
     
  12. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    This story made national TV news last night. I cant remember what channel I was watching but I believe it was on one of the major three networks on their national news.
     
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  13. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    Indonesian investigators have said the Lion Air plane that crashed last month killing 189 people was not airworthy and should have been grounded.

    The preliminary report details what is known by authorities about the short time the plane was in the air, but investigators said it did not give a definitive cause for the accident.

    Nurcahyo Utomo, aviation head at the National Transport Safety Committee, said it was "too early to conclude" whether the anti-stall system had contributed to the crash. "In our opinion, the plane was no longer airworthy and it should not have continued," he said. The committee's report itself, though, does not spell out that conclusion.

    The report said that Lion Air's safety culture should be improved and the airline should ensure the operations manual is followed "in order to improve the safety culture".

    Lion Air crash plane 'not airworthy'
     
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  14. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    It looks like many things need to be considered:

    Did the airline properly train their pilots as to how the very advanced auto pilot works?

    • Did the pilots have enough over all training to compensate for an auto pilot “on the blink”?

    • How skilled were the technicians making previous adjustments to critical sensors? Did they correctly identify a problem? Or did they dangerously “repair” something that did not need to be repaired at all?

    • Did the manufacturer fully inform customers of how the added autopilot features work?

    • Is there an inherent defect with the airplane?

    This could support a cascade of events such as:

    Airline with a limited budget for training (flight crew and ground maintenance) buys a very complex plane. Information on new systems is buried deep in technical manuals from the manufacturer. The airline informs their pilots to a minimal level of the new auto pilot features, but no comprehensive simulator training is given. Having trouble with auto pilot, a flight crew reports real or apparent faults.

    Inadequately trained technicians start “adjusting” critical sensors based on incomplete information provided by the crew. The plane is returned to service without a comprehensive check. A flight crew with minimal training on the new auto pilot takes the plane up with sensors that may, or may not be calibrated. Things go from bad to worse…. .
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  15. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    "Lion Air has threatened to sue Indonesia’s lead air crash investigator for saying the airline’s Boeing 737 Max aircraft that crashed into the Java Sea last month, killing all 189 people on board, was not airworthy on its second-last flight and should have returned to base.

    National Transport Safety Committee chief investigator Nurcahyo Utomo made the comments on Wednesday after releasing the preliminary report into the country’s worst aviation disaster in decades."

    Nocookies
     
  16. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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  17. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    Personally speaking, I wouldn't fly on one of these planes if it was owned and operated by a budget airline in any country. I'd choose something else until the issues arising from this crash have been fully resolved.
    Having said that, sometimes you don't have a choice.
     
  18. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t get on one of these planes either on any airline. There is a saying in aviation “If it’s not Boeing I’m not going” I would prefer to fly on an Airbus plane at the moment.
     
  19. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    Very good point. The disaster could well be the result of an airline with a history of safety issues buying "too much airplane".

    The result is pilots reporting what they think are faults to ground technicians who then make dangerous "adjustments" to very critical flight sensors. The next flight crew is then flying a plane whose auto pilot they don't fully understand and whose sensors have been "adjusted".

    Airlines are supposed to have a "help desk" staffed 24 hours by an expert pilot and an expert mechanic / technician with all the manuals a click away. In case of trouble in the air or on the ground, ground controllers contact the help desk and they talk the crew through the problem or give expert repair advise on the ground.

    I suspect Lion Air does not have such a "desk". This put the technicians alone when making the adjustments and the pilots completely on their own when trouble started.

    Unmanned help desks are not limited to foreign budget airlines. When ground controllers attempted to contact the help desk of a US airline facing an in air disaster, the desk was either completely unmanned, or staffed by a records clerk.
     
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  20. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    Lion Air’s co-founder says the giant low-cost carrier may cancel orders for more than 200 Boeing planes as relations between the two companies sour over the air crash that killed 189 people on October 29.

    He cited “disappointment” with a Boeing statement last week that he said appeared to cast blame on Lion Air for the crash when the new Boeing 737 MAX jet plunged into the Java Sea shortly after takeoff. “It’s not right, it’s not ethical,” he said. “We are partners; we are not enemies.”

    Canceling the orders could deprive the Chicago-based plane maker of one of its largest customers. Lion Air Group, which in 2017 became the first company to commercially operate a MAX jet, Boeing’s latest iteration of the 737, is one of the world’s top buyers of the planes. It has ordered 251 of them with a list price of more than $25 billion.

    Lion Air Co-Founder Considers Canceling Giant Boeing Order After Indonesia Crash
     
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