Discussion in 'Long Island Serial Killer' started by sharon sartori, Jun 4, 2018.
Interesting! Can I convince you to pair up with me in order to profile LISK?
The Killing Season made mistakes. When interviewing a member of webslueths she points out the ip Addy of who she thinks LISK is. The issue with that is anyone can alter their IP address to anywhere specifically in the world.
The Golden State killer called victim's houses also. It seems like one of the 'qualities' of the 'lisk' killer that overlaps with 'qualities' of any serial killer who looks for a job with blunt power like being a cop, i.e., another indication 'lisk' was a cop.
It seems unlikely that Bittrolff committed the murders he was convicted for. There are a huge number of problems with that case, not least the unprofessional way dna labs in that area are run. There is an article in the nydailynews today regarding that.
More interesting are the obvious similarities between the killings he was convicted of and other killings that he could not have committed.
The Golden State Killer used the phone too.
You outconcised me.
A few links below for anybody who is skeptical about the Bittrolff case.
Suffolk county is one of many places where, it seems, there is evidence of a lot of shortcuts in solving crimes.
If somebody does not know the history of Spota they should research that before they get an opinion on the Bittrolff case.
One example that has been in the news is James Burke, the police chief.
Spota needed to solve a killing years ago so he manufactured a false case and got James Burke to give false testimony in that case. Years later Burke cashed in a bit and asked for a job as a cop. As Spota moved up, Burke's leverage grew and he cashed in some more, becoming police chief. There are plenty of other examples.
At some point there was extreme pressure on local police to do something about the lisk killings. There were indications the killer was a cop and pressure was probably severe on higher ups. It was right at that moment that suddenly they solved two killings that seemed similar to the lisk killings, and a flood of articles followed speculating that 'maybe' lisk was caught.
I haven't researched this in a few years but here are some links for anybody interested, and quotes from some.
There are only two cases I have researched in some depth, a few years ago, this one and the murder of Hser Ner Moo. Both cases involve obvious deceptions by prosecutors. Esar Met I can say almost 100% he is not guilty of the murder he was convicted of. This case, Bittrolff, I'm pretty sure he is not guilty but anything is possible. It is certain that, for example, the detective interviewed about the case in the dailybeast article below was lying about some things. It would be extremely difficult to prove Bittrolff is not guilty, simply because the culture of the people who convicted him is to twist evidence towards a conviction rather than towards the truth. It appears likely they fabricated the dna evidence but good luck to anybody who tries to prove it.
Speculation / Initially there was another suspect in the two killings. That person was also suspected in the killing listed on the websleuths page below, and there must have been some reason for that.
As far as I know, I don't know anybody involved in the Bittrolff case, nor the Esar Met case, nor do I have any other connection to either case. If there were reliable evidence I would have no problem with either of them being guilty.
"The case in which the DNAcertification was allegedly falsified involved a double murder on Long Island in which JohnBittrolff, a 51-year-old carpenter, was convicted in July 2017 ..."
Fired DCJS director accuses commissioner of misleading oversight panel
"Her lawsuit said that she voted to require the medical examiner's office to make public an internal study on the validity of the technique. The vote did not pass. "
NYC reaches $1 million settlement with toxicologist
NY - NY - Bronx Co., WhtFemale UP4902, 35-45, in cabinet with cartoon blanket, Mar'98
The 24-Year Hunt for a Serial Killer Preying on Long Island Prostitutes
DNA Evidence Can Be Fabricated, Scientists Show
I looked up the word out concise and it's not in the dictionary.
what does it mean?
I heard from a woman who is friends with Bittrolff's wife, because she
lived either across the street or next door to them, that Bittrolff only
admitted to killing one of the 2 prostitutes, and that Spota framed him
Bittrolff for the 2nd murder.
I also heard that the Feds have a sealed indictment that will be used against
Spota in trial in November, and someone alleged that it's Spota
purchasing a boy from a male prostitute. Now if this is true, there
is no way Spota is going to trial, it will STAY SEALED and Spota will
take a plea.
Fired DCJS director accuses commissioner of misleading oversight panel
It mentions DNA and Bittrolff and falsifying DNA in Bittrolff's case.
Gestring did not identify the person accused of falsifying the DNA document, but said the female employee was suspended and subsequently retired. The case in which the DNA certification was allegedly falsified involved a double murder on Long Island in which John Bittrolff, a 51-year-old carpenter, was convicted in July 2017 of murdering two women in 1993 and 1994.
Bittrolff was tied to the murder through DNA taken from semen found in the women's bodies, according to published reports. It was not immediately clear on Friday whether the falsification of the DNA records was disclosed by prosecutors to Bittrolff's attorney or what impact, if any, the incident may have had in the case.
It was the first case in New York in which a person was convicted based on the use of "familial DNA." Police zeroed in on Bittrolff after his brother's DNA — which was in a state database because of an unrelated arrest — was linked to the evidence found in the victims. The jury deliberated for seven days and told a judge three times they were deadlocked before convicting Bittrolff of second-degree murder, according to Newsday.
In a letter to Green last December, state Inspector General Catherine Leahy Scott informed him that her office, which had been asked by DCJS to investigate the DNA-falsification allegation, had determined the agency's "DNA hits coordinator negligently re-created and sent an inaccurate certified letter to the Suffolk County District Attorney."
Gestring, 48, is a former New York Police Department scientist. The inspector general's examination of his alleged workplace misconduct began 13 months ago when investigators with the inspector general's office stumbled onto the charges during their probe of the falsification of the DNA records in the Suffolk County murder case.
Outconcising is like outsmarting, but briefer rather than brighter.
If he did admit, and does admit it in a noncoercive environment, then that would be the end of that, but I highly doubt that he committed the murders. More plausible, all things considered, would be a flood of rumors that he secretly confessed, then his sudden death and case closed. Lisk is probably a cop and Bittrolff is probably not Lisk, but that's my opinion.
As for Spota and a male prostitute etc, if Spota has sex with little boys he is probably owned by a lot of people beyond Burke and his crew.
He would probably suffer some fatal consequence before Bittrolff in that case but who knows, Hastert is still alive and he was probably owned by dozens of groups and people.
I can't really follow all the twists and turns of the dna drama, its all smoke and mirrors as far as I'm concerned. The Suffolk people don't want to be discredited. The feds are on board with that since their main goal is to prop up the image of law enforcement rather than substance. When I lived in that general region I considered Long Island a respectable place. Only from the internet did I learn about all the crooked cops etc. It's not likely to be fixed easily.
Two more links I'll add.
The police were evidently dishonest in many respects in the supposed Bittrolff murders.
One of the deceptions involved the so called wood chips. He's a carpenter so wood chips must point to him, they imply.
So are you inferring that spota owes those who got him the boys?
because I was told in 2016, by a very credible source, that the Feds knew all about Spota and pedophilia.
So, if the Feds knew, but did nothing, does that mean that powerful men are protecting Spota from prosecution?
When Spota was being investigated by the Feds for covering up the beat down of Chris Loeb and the illegal
wiretaps, he went to Washington DC to turn to his bff Loretta Lynch to make his problems go away.
Watch what nxivm reveals
Schneiderman was roadblock
1) Bittrolff's lawyer was cozy with the prosecution.
From the second link above "Prior to the commencement of trial, J.C.'s brother-in-law (the brother of J.C.'s wife) had been employed as a prosecutor by the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office. While there, he had worked in the Homicide Bureau and had attended a single meeting regarding the investigation of defendant, which occurred prior to defendant's arrest." among other, more serious problems with the Shulman case which should raise eyebrows.
2) The so called 'confession' you refer to, if real, is almost certainly part of a trick that is a signature of federal law enforcement in the U.S. They put a person in the suspects cell who tries to pressure the suspect into giving a 'confession' that has the appearance of being valid but which is not. In Bittrolff's case they might have put a person in his cell who tried to put pressure on him to posture guilt, to feel threatened if he said he was innocent. A different kind of example is in a recent documentary on how cops frame people. In that case a Scandinavian guy was accused of molesting children. He had been raised by two women, lesbians I guess. So the NYPD had two female cops tell him that they had proof he was guilty. He said something along the lines of "I don't remember doing it, and I agree that would be a horrible crime, but I must be guilty if you say so. I must have a split personality or something, dissociative identities." He was finally exonerated but died a few months ago in his late 20s. A confession from Bittrolff might be in the same category.
3) Regarding Spota and boys, I have no idea if that's true. Long Island does have a culture of highly powerful people who do promote certain characters to public power on the basis not of capabilities but vulnerabilities. Obviously the criminal case Burke testified in as a teen was a parallel to that, and put Spota in a position that compromised him viz Burke, and most likely Spota was similarly compromised by other people and situations, but I have not seen any specific evidence of what you refer to. It may well be accurate, I just don't know.
It's likely one person, a cop, killed most of the victims associated with Shulman, Bittrolff and the 'lisk'.
It's likely that cop had overwhelming leverage on Long Island and beyond.
It's not likely the feds, who have similar issues to Suffolk, will investigate seriously.
One important point to add.
Burke's pornography etc is a distraction from the core issue.
He would not have had that kind of stuff in his truck because he likes whatever was depicted in that pornography, nor because he is part of some group that does.
Just as if you found a bag of super cheap garbage guns in the back of his truck you would not say "Oh the chief likes cheap guns". When a cop has a super cheap gun it's usually meant as a gift, if necessary, for somebody who got shot but did not have a gun.
The pornography was probably just something he kept nearby to set people up. There is a heavy overlap evidently in Suffolk between politicians and police. He, as police chief, had to be ready at a moment's notice to set up people etc.
Trying to 'smear' Spota and Burke with inaccuracies is really not useful and serves their ends. Unless it's actually true.
The truth is that Spota was crooked. He knowingly participated in arresting and framing people he knew to be not guilty of the respective crimes. Saying things that might or might not be true about him being involved in sex with boys is not, as far as I know, based on proveable facts, while his being involved with crooked policing is a pretty well established fact evidently.
Burke, there are indications he was a few steps past crooked though.
As an adolescent Burke testified falsely at a murder trial and that gave him immunity from prosecution for any crime whatsoever. He literally, from adolescence, could commit any crime he wanted and when any threat loomed he could play his Spota ace.
Because that testimony, and its consequent immunity, occured at his teen years, he probably developed a network of crooked buddies.
When he told Spota to give him a cop job, and he worked as a drug or vice cop, he not only had immunity from above, from Spota, he also developed a network of additional buddies with badges who already knew how the badge immunity game was played.
Who was the actual killer that all of these crooked cops were and are protecting? It probably was not Burke. It could well have been a cop from a neighboring area that was heavily vested in Suffolk cops. My guess, from reading news articles etc, is that it was a small group of cops from a few areas who were grunts in some foreign conflict, then came back to exercise their taste for power as cops. A few, or one, among them probably committed most, more than half, of the total murders that Bittrolff, Schulmann and 'lisk' are blamed for.
Aside from inadvertantly overusing a police database to screen victims, they probably did not make any obvious mistakes that could expose them.
tldr for anybody who prefers concise
The 'lisk' case will probably not be solved.
I don't believe this case will be solved unless the wall protecting police corruption is breached. Not only in Suffolk County, but any associated places in NYC. Someone, or several, have something big to lose if information gets out, and the people who have power to break through that wall should do all they can. For the victims. For the public. For the families. For the communities. For any future victims. Justice is appropriate and warranted. Major justice.
I read and saw many things in the days following the bodies surfacing, things that are no longer available online. Things about underwear being chewed off victim. Bite marks. Messages or calendar pieces clippings, statements found with bodies along the lines of "starting to feel better" or something like that. I don't know if it was with Cherries, I don't remember. I can't find it anymore. Rage. Possession of the victim. Acknowledgment they knew something was wrong with them.
I remember reading the victims were petite, very small. Didn't need to be a muscle man to overpower a small woman (or man). He wanted to feel powerful. Something made him feel emasculated. Overbearing mother/sisters?
How about if sadist perpetrator was attracted to women but unable to perform without ritual fetishistic ideas or scenarios that would allow him to perform sexually, so tells others he is homosexual. Except a few. How about sexual confusion. How about the possibility perp bisexual and living with male. What about possibility of perp being a prostitute himself, and taking that self-hatred out on another. Living with a homosexual cop who is a misogynist. Whose job was in the exact area where call was made to torment victims sister from midtown. Relationships with other cops with same views and lifestyle. What if perp's friends noticed bad behavior and tried to tell others but were ignored. What if perp used same words with friends used against sister on phone, same lingo.
What if perp lived in area of Gilgo Beach. And took people there on car tours in circles around where bodies were found. What if he had a friend with a boat. A cop.
What if perp told others he used Craigslist. Often. For seemingly innocent things. What if that person's knowledge of computers and surveillance was and is advanced. What if that person gave away odd presents to family and friends in the way of phones that seemed to come from nowhere and were clearly someone else's but had been jailbroken and wiped. No explanation. Cars changing regularly. Disappearing and new ones appearing for no logical reason, and no explanation.
What if perp likes gardening, has used burlap, and got a mysterious case of poison ivy and complained it was all over his body, even genitals prior to discovery of bodies. What if that was part of information online, but was later difficult to find.
Victims trusted him, victims abandoning security measures. Someone making them throw caution to the wind. Look for someone very attractive and charming, potentially. Attractive enough to be model material. Halo effect. Man is good looking enough to be assumed to be good.
But, not good. A monster, who holds dirt on all the cops he was involved with for years. Cops he convinced he was innocent.
That's a good long post with a lot of ideas. Here are things I disagree with.
"wrong with them" do you mean the killer having a conscience or the killer 'knowing' he was killing people who had something 'wrong' with them?
As for overbearing females in family, that by itself doesn't make a serial killer. As I understand psychology, a person more or less patterns their 'will to live' or libido after their same sex parent and 'death will' or thanatos after opposite sex parent. So a man who is beaten by his father will get his 'will' from beating men, but for a man to cross over to getting will or power from killing women, his father would have had to teach him that, and in that case the females in that family would not be so overbearing most likely.
At any rate, chopping up bodies suggests something else is going on.
Those all seem like possibilities. Regarding the phone call, it does seem likely that the language, words, tone etc would be recognizeable to somebody. It is unlikely they would trace the call without recording it, so it's a mystery why parts of the recording are not released.
Another peculiarity. No doubt Long Island sound and offshore on the ocean side are plugged with bodies. Likely the killer had easy access to a boat. So why didn't he dump the bodies offshore, as most people in that situation would do?
Some of the various bodies were probably dumped by people either in a rush or careless, but some were obviously intended to be found.
I had heard a lot of the Zodiac killer but didn't research him until the mention of that in this thread.
The Zodiac killer makes obviously dated references to Vietnam and some of those references seem to be to sort of identify himself to certain among the investigators, sort of telling them "I am one of you", with effect being those investigators deflect the investigation a bit.
There are probably similar things evident in the Long Island killings, things done to the victims that identify the killer as part of a 'fraternal' group that overrides the 'law enforcement' interests of certain among the investigators. I was never in the military nor police obviously, and don't respect that kind of thing so can't guess, but there are indications that is at play in the lisk investigation.
Craigslist is used by millions of people.
Computer and surveillance knowledge is widespread nowadays.
Phones and cars, likewise, widely traded, bought sold, etc.
Burlap bags are kind of a cheap way to store things, some grains and produce comes in burlap bags but what is the connection to poison ivy? Do you mean he might have gardened on the edge of woods that had poison ivy? Did some of the victim have poison ivy rashes? As I recall NY has poison ivy, poison sumac and poison oak.
As far as victims 'trusting' him, prostitution is a notoriously dangerous business, like selling drugs. The most important thing with regard to 'trust' is probably that such a high number of victims were unidentified i.e., he was targeting people who might not have had the luxury of trust. The victims that did leave behind some evidence of trust may have been trusting money, charm, attractiveness, as you say.
That's probably not accurate. He is probably well known in his circle for being brutal with women. The problem is the circle he is in.
The people who are close to him protect him for one reason not having to do with 'dirt', and those further out protect the circle he is in, for various reasons including dirt, probably.
Some trivia for anybody interested.
There is a movie recently out about the Amityville murders.
The Amityville Murders (2019)
The victim was a possibly mob connected well off car dealership owner.
A book about the crimes was written by Tom Spota's old law partner.
LAW FIRM'S GROWTH REFLECTS THE; TIMES
who also was the lawyer for the son of the person many people think had Tankleff killed.
Once something is a few years old people usually stop researching it and it fades into history as fact, but there seems to be somebody out there who has been pushing the Amityville thing.
Amityville FAQ - Who's Who?
and has done extensive research
The most obvious connection between the Tankleff prosecution and the Bittrolff prosecution is the forensics experts, one of the behind the scenes threads of continuity. Usually people refer to corrupt politicians and cops, but there are always supporting characters without whom their work would be difficult or impossible. Whoever did all that research on Amityville should do a similar project on lisk etc.
I agree I think the police really pushedBittrolff into the role of serial killer
I believe this person has moved away from NY n NJ has anyone thought that women are missing in Myrtle Beach I counted9 from May 2018 to Aug 2018 and only 1 update tourism is so important here that murder is moved to page 10 and murder of prostitution’s well .... he may have set up shop here
Prostitutes all over typically are attacked or killed at a high rate. Crimes against them often aren't investigated too much because some people, including their killers, believe that there is less of a crime when the victim is diminished or has an unpopular role in society.
A person could probably find dozens of missing prostitutes in all 50 states. This person from Myrtle beach is high on Google A mother is told her daughter died of a drug overdose in SC. But no one can find her. but unless there were a large number of such cases examined for similarities it would be hard to guess if the lisk killer and any of dozens or hundreds of similar types across the country, including Myrtle beach, are the same.