Loose ligature ISN'T STAGING

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Holdontoyourhat, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    Was the 2nd ligature a staging item or not? According to standard RDI, it was staging. It was staging to represent JBR being tied up by an intruder.

    Was the 2nd ligature found tight around JBR's wrists? No.

    Why was an item intended for staging not left in its most convincing staging position, tied tightly around her wrists?

    Why does the 2nd ligature have two knots and three loops? I would think a standard and convincing wrist restraint would have one knot, and the ligature looped several times tightly around both wrists.

    Answer: We don't understand the purpose for the 2nd ligature. But, JBR's assailant believed that the 2nd ligature no longer had a purpose after JBR died. Thats why it was loose.
     
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  3. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    If it was a kidnapping gone wrong like you always suggest,why didn't he hide the body?Wrapping it in a blanket ain't hiding,JR himself said that he saw her instantly.(but again we have a problem with the whole basement scenario,two people already checked it and saw NOTHING)

    Let's say the intruder left the note there so that this will gain him more time to get out of town,whatever.He tried to take the body with him but couldn't get it out of the house (suitcase,window).

    Why didn't he hide it better?


    Re the title of the thread:maybe in a moment of panic JR realized it didn't look convincing,who knows.He knew FW was around and maybe this kinda messed up with his plans of how to "find" JB and explain some things. moo
     
  4. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    JR himself said at one point that there were lots of people in the basement at 3am.Was it a slip,a mistake,I don't know.He also said that he "found" her at 11am.Lots of misunderstandings....way too many,don't you think.So if this is true and if this is what some of the friends are hiding and lying about (help,cover up,God knows what else) then maybe one didn't know what the other did.Maybe JR realized it's too much,the cord,the 2nd ligature,the note,the blanket,the tape.No surprise that profilers said it's overstaging,it's just too much.Maybe because there were too many people involved in the cover up.

    moo
     
  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Not according to "standard RDI," friend. According to the FBI's CASKU division:

    To the FBI profilers, the time spent staging the crime scene pointed to a killer who had asked, "how do I explain this? and had answered the question: "a stranger did it." The staging suggested a killer desperate to divert attention.
    Moreover, there was staging within staging: the loop of cord around one wrist was not a real indication that JonBenet had been restrained.

    --PMPT, pb, p 498

    In other words, we have GOOD REASON to think that.

    Yup.

    CASKU addressed that point too. And it's so simple I STILL don't understand what's so damn hard to understand about it:

    By now CASKU was quite certain that JonBenet's killer had never committed a murder before...someone intelligent but not criminally sophisticated.
    --PMPT pg 496-497

    It's REALLY easy to sit calmly at a computer and say that, especially when you've had 13+ years to analyze the mistakes. An amateur with no knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like in a highly agitated emotional state flying by the seat of his/her pants as it's happening doesn't always have the luxury of crystal-clear thinking, let alone intimate knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like.

    If anyone else can come up with a more concise way of phrasing that, I'd be much obliged!
     
  6. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    This is more wildcard reasoning. I understand that RDI is resistant to the use of logic or reason. The loose ligature is not consistent with the basic motive of staging a crime scene complete with 350 word ransom note and tightened neck garrote. The loose ligature does not support staging.

    Its REALLY easy for someone staging a murder to tie a convincing wrist restraint, having already tied a garrote tightly around JBR's neck--so tightly in fact it had to be cut to be removed.

    Now, mysteriously, the perp is too inexperienced to create a convincing wrist restraint? C'mon who are you kiddin?

    This is a complete fabrication!

    There is no proof that the crime was committed by an amateur, that they were in an agitated emotional state, or were flying by the seat of their pants. This is your creation, your imagination. It has no support in evidence.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I've just about run out of patience. I'd tell you to think about it in a different way and the reasoning might be a little clearer, but we both know that's not going to happen.

    It's not a question of motive. It's a question of knowing how.

    Well, there's what you say and then there's what the FBI says. Which one do you think I'm going to go with?

    If they knew what a "convincing wrist restraint" was.

    1) It wasn't cut so it could be removed. It was cut so that the knot wouldn't be messed with. They needed to study it further.

    2) Strangling someone involves different mechanics than binding wrists or ankles.

    3) Some of that tightness was probably due to post-mortem swelling. And even if it isn't, a ligature like that works on the same principle as a python: once it's pulled tight, it's very hard to loosen. One hard pull is all that would be needed.

    4) A possibility: perhaps the garrote was as far as they could go. As in "I've already done too much."

    5) Another possibility: the wrist ties just weren't that important in relation to the garrote.

    Nothing mysterious about it.

    I don't have time to kid when it comes to this case.

    HOTYH, I'm warning you. Do NOT impugn my honor.

    The feds agreed with it.
     
  8. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    Hmm. Lets see.

    Able to write a 350 word essay. Included is a reference to beheading a child. Pretty cool headed stuff considering what else was going on.

    Weapon was simple, lightweight, and effective.

    Combination of headbash and strangulation together is a fairly common, more advanced killing technique.

    13 years later walking free.

    There is more evidence to indicate that the killer was professional, experienced, calm, and calculated. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what you posted.
     
  9. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I can't wait.

    Your "consideration" leaves out a LOT of factors.

    1) It wasn't simple. It had more than a foot of extra length which would have made it less user-friendly. Simple would have been to just use it like a traditional garrote.

    2) So what if it was lightweight?

    3) For reasons outlined in #1, it would only be effective on someone who was already incapacitated. That's not just my opinion, either.

    If it were INTENDED to be a combination.

    There is NO evidence to indicate that at all. You might be able to convince some Johnny-come-lately of that, but not an old hand like me.
     
  10. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    And didn't JR say he also tried to remove the cord around her wrists,therefore it became loose so if staged again JR messed with the evidence just like everything else that day...
     
  11. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    Yes there is.

    I'll explain the evidence that does indicate experience, calm, and calculated (warning, logic involved):

    The primary evidence is the DNA, and the DA's office went out-of-their-way to exhonerate the R's. Based on this evidence, we can suppose at least for a moment that an intruder did it. Failure to suppose an intruder did it, even briefly, is curious because it does fly in the face of the most recent news reports.

    Corroborating the primary evidence is secondary evidence that JBR was alive when strangled with the garrote. We know this because of large petechial hemmorhaging on her neck at the site of the cord that would not take place unless JBR were very much alive. The coroner effectively stated this. This strongly indicates an intent to kill on the part of JBR's assailant.

    If there was an intent to kill JBR, then the head trauma is more likely another manifestation of this intent, and less likely she had an accident on the same night someone tried to kill her. The former can be inferred from evidence while the latter cannot.

    If an intruder did all the things we know happened, then the intruder would easily be perceived as experienced, calm, and calculated. They needed to gain entry, do all the things we know happened, leave without disturbing the occupants or the neighbors, and not be identified because of evidence left at the scene.
     
  12. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    Hi SD.

    One hard pull is all that would be needed. - SD

    Is that the consensus of our WS group?
    The knott would not allow release of tension.
    In LS's recreation, his companion loops the garotte rope before placing it around LS neck ..... ?





    Heyya Hotyh.

    Hotyh, what's your take on LS recreation?
     
  13. KariKae

    KariKae Active Member

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    I've always thought the loose ligatures indicated JonBenet struggled against them. Thus, they were loosened.

    Now, my understanding is there was not evidence of struggle (i.e. abrasions on her wrists), so that would indicate the ligatures were applied as a part of a staging process.

    SuperDave - do you believe the ligatures were applied when John Ramsey disappeared for 2 hours (getting the mail)?
     
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    An awfully convenient explanation, wouldn't you say?
     
  15. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    :clap: :clap: Beautiful, KariKae. It's so simple, isn't it?

    Never thought about that. I doubt it, though.
     
  16. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I think I would have noticed by now if there were, HOTYH.

    More importantly, I think CASKU, the professionals who handle cases like this EVERY SINGLE DAY would have, too.

    Don't hate the player, HOTYH; hate the game.

    Good luck.

    No, I'm warning YOU. DO NOT TEST ME. You've used up my patience already.

    Specks of degraded material that can't even be pinpointed to that night. You'll have to do a lot better than that.

    I have yet to see any reason why anyone should believe it's worth anything.

    I have no problem with supposing.

    We've been over that one so many times it's grown whiskers. And frankly, I'm just as tired of saying it as your are of hearing it.

    We've been over THAT, too.

    Petechial hemorrhages are very easy to produce, especially when the blood had nowhere to go.

    He stated no such thing. In fact, you want to talk about flying in the face of news reports? Okay. I'll play your game:

    Werner Spitz, Thomas Henry, Henry Lee and Ronald Wright are all experience coroners who have stated publically several times that JB was very likely close to death when the garrote was applied.

    Where's that logic you promised?

    Just you watch me.

    THAT we can all agree on.
     
  17. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Tadpole.

    I don't know, Tadpole. I don't think anyone's thought to take a poll.

    I learned the hard way a long time ago not to trust LS's "recreations" as far as I can throw an elephant by the trunk.
     
  18. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    Watch you what? Go down the wrong road?

    OK. Join the crowd (these days is more like the scant few).

    The right road has an intruder on it. That intruder is experienced and calculating, we all can agree right?
     
  19. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    I think the key is to understand the 2nd (wrist) ligature and how it was used or intended to be used. Also to understand why the paintbrush was broken at both ends (this fact is superfluous to RDI staging theory, as RDI can't even define what two broken paintbrush ends would be staging!!).

    Its pretty evident how the garrote ligature was used. The coroner stated JBR died from strangulation while noting the petechial hemorrhaging on her neck, and there was a cord knotted around her neck. What more demonstration or recreation do you need? While others may question its effectiveness, I'm not.
     
  20. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Where have I heard THAT before?

    Like I care about the crowd. I'm the renegade, remember?

    Tried it. Didn't work for me.

    I have my doubts about THAT, too.
     
  21. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Hotyh.

    I had wondered if the paintbrush might harve been used as part of a tourniquet method of strangulation. Perhaps broken by the attempt to create tension.

    or maybe the wrist ligatures were functional in that they were used to fold her body into a position for the sexual assault.

    IDI wise the wrist ligatures could have been 'functional' in that it provided visual stimulation for the perp.

    Since none of us are well practiced in AEA, it's difficult to speculate.
     

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