Loved to Death

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by SuperDave, Feb 28, 2010.

  1. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    Before we get started, let me be clear: this is a hypothetical, purely for the sake of argument.

    Here we go. I'm merely speculating, but I think PR figured that JB would make her famous as a beauty queen. With JB dead, that was no longer an option. But make a good crime scene and do your best acting job and you will become a magnet for sympathy. She becomes the ultimate victim. Michael Kane did an interview in 2002 where he said that the staging of the crime was so overdone, it would have to have been done by someone with a proclivity for showmanship. He used these words: "It was a very theatrical production and Patsy is a very theatrical person." He described her as a narcissist who "loves being known as the mother of a murdered beauty queen." It's an old story. History is full of people who, once they've outlived their usefulness, have become worth more to a cause dead than alive. Che Guevara is a good example. As is John F. Kennedy. Or the one that JB seemed destined to accompany: Marilyn Monroe. Let me lay this illustration on you: PR often likened her daughter to Marilyn Monroe, even printing it on JonBenet's name badge at one pageant. Who better to associate your beauty queen daughter with than the most famous blonde of all time? But, what most people overlook is this: one of the big reasons why Marilyn's legend is so strong is because she died tragically. Marilyn died young and at the peak of her fame, her beauty undiminished. She was not allowed to grow old and obscure. Instead, the gods lifted her up to them in full loveliness.

    Well, what happened to Marilyn happened to JonBenet, and I can't help but wonder if for the same reason. I don't necessarily mean that JonBenet's death was premeditated (although, there may be those who do). I'm just saying that, if it did start out as an unintentional killing, it might explain to all those naysayers why 911 wasn't called and why all of the staging was done: a child beauty queen, so destined for greatness killed in a common, garden-variety, run-of-the-mill, humdrum domestic incident? That would NEVER do! She was so spectacular in life. She HAD to be spectacular in death. Nothing but the best (or worst, depending on how you see it) for JonBenet. And she IS spectacular in death! Her death made her more well-known to more people than all of her performances put together. Not to mention that it's almost 15 years later and people STILL remember her! Would a simple domestic death merit such attention? No. But a child beauty queen killed in her own home under the noses of her loved ones on what is supposed to be the happiest day of the year...how cool is that!

    And it had the perfect capper: that massive public funeral, where everyone could pledge their condolences and see the perfect little princess, beautiful forever, displayed in a coffin that served the same purpose as a jewel box. PR acted like a mother would at her daughter's wedding day, because it WAS JB's wedding day. As a former poster titled "voynich" put it, a wedding day with Death. Or if you prefer, her wedding day with God.

    And all of it motivated by love. I've considered the idea that PR was saving JB from something, something that made it necessary to preserve her in memory as perfect, but this is heart-wrenching enough as it is.

    Okay. Let the chips fall where they may.
     
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  3. Sophie

    Sophie New Member

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    That's a fascinating argument, Dave, and one that I believe is very close to what I believe played out.
     
  4. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    In this scenario,how muchdoes JR know?
    Because it would mean PR didn't give a damn about him,I mean,he already lost one daughter......how cruel would it be to take away another one.Of course,this scenario implies that PR wasn't exacly........sane....so I guess other people's feelings didn't matter much?
     
  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    A fair deal, in my estimation.

    That about sums it up. I've often wondered if she didn't have a "break" with reality, at least a temporary one.
     
  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I think Patsy's dreams of Beauty Queen glory and word-wide fame for herself, dashed when she went on to LOSE the Miss American Pageant, then faded as she became a pretty, smart but decidedly unremarkable mother of two. No one outside of Atlanta ever heard of her or paid her much attention. Ditto Boulder, UNTIL.....she transferred her dreams of glory to her little girl. Patsy got her dream of world wide fame with her daughter's death. So did her daughter. Patsy herself said she felt good about the fact that JB would never grow up to bear the pain of losing a child. She also meant (though unsaid) that JB would never know the pain of losing- period.
    To be honest, I don't think the world would have taken note of JB either unless this happened. If she did go on to become Miss America one day, her background on the Kiddie Pageant circuit would have come out, but not before that. As far as past Miss Americas, I can't think of any who were on the "glitz" pageant circuit. I am sure many won teen pageants and of course State pageants. They likely had some sort of coaching. But most contestants were pretty and talented girls who looked at the crown as scholarship money or a path to a rewarding career (outside of the pageant world) and yes, even a wealthy husband. I have been watching Miss America all my life. My grandfather worked the lights at the Convention Hall in Atlantic City during the 50s. We used to go there every August, staying in one of the many (now gone) guest houses. They were all over Atlantic City back then- some big hotels, but mostly quaint Victorian- era guest homes with huge wraparound porches, the oversized wicker furniture smelling musty but pleasant at the same time, the smell of the seashore and vacation, the Diving Horse. Salt water taffy.
    I cannot recall, over all these years, more than a handful of names of past Miss Americas.
    JB was a beautiful little girl of some talent. Was she Shirley Temple? No. And I doubt she would have been.
    Her death gave her what her mother always wanted - for herself and her daughter.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    Wonderful, DeeDee. You illustrated my point PERFECTLY. And the fact that you could is the saddest part of all..
     
  8. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Thought maybe this fits on this thread:

    http://www.cbn.com/700club/scottross/interviews/jonbenet1.aspx

    PATSY RAMSEY: That is something we don’t know. And I think because of the magnitude of this we have to believe as Christians that God is using this.

    JOHN RAMSEY: See what we believe, this is our hope, that for some reason JonBenet’s name is known around the world.

    SCOTT: It’s a unique name.

    JOHN: Well, but there are thousands of children murdered in this country every year. But you can’t name one of them.

    SCOTT: No.

    JOHN: You can’t. So for some reason God is going to make this work for good. Our job, Patsy and I, is to stay tuned and be sure we are listening because there is something significant that is going to happen out of this -- that is our belief.



    Brrrrrrrrrrrr......CREEPY!!!
     
  9. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    Interesting thoughts they had. Trying to soothe their guilty consciences, I guess.

    I mean, as far as something like the murder of little Adam Walsh...THERE is a case where something good came out of a great tragedy. The TV show hosted by his father has helped to bring more than a few perps to justice. Ditto Megan Kanka. We now have Megan's Law. But THIS case? What good has come out of JB's name being world-known? It may have pleased her mother to have her daughter (even a dead daughter) so well-known, but it has hardly resulted in any benefit to the world, the country, the state of Colorado or the city of Boulder. Or even to anyone she knew.
    And we STILL have those awful kiddie glitz pageants.
     
  10. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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  11. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    Well I always thought with putting Marilyn Monroe on JonBenet's name tag this who PR was aimimg for her to be like...And with the marks on the neck now how would this be spectacular and I can't see how PR would think this also for JonBenet memory to be tarnish with a paintbrush being inserted inside her....
     
  12. azmama

    azmama New Member

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    From my view, to people like PR, no one matters, it is all about her and how everything makes her look, or relates to her. What a selfish and meaningless way of life.
     
  13. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    How? Think about the kind of killer it suggests: the kind that TERRIFIES middle Americans.

    In my opinion, there were practical reasons as well:

    1) Strangulation is clean. It doesn't make a bloody mess.

    2) The neck wounds could be easily hidden at the funeral (anybody ELSE think that scarf was important?). Just as long as her face wasn't distorted. But even then, as I explained to voynich, it didn't matter all that much if it was an open-casket funeral as long as there WAS a funeral (which is my explanation for why her body was not dumped as well).

    I'm of the mind that they didn't have much choice. SOMETHING had to explain her injuries "down there."
     
  14. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    I agree with these ideas. Up until recently, I felt a lot of compassion for Patsy Ramsey. I thought she murdered JonBenet, but I thought a combination of her cancer & stress made her go into a rage. I thought that not having her daughter was probably hell on earth. But as I got older, my feelings toward her changed. When I read their Christmas message, it dawned on me that they were trying to minimize JonBenet's death. Nevermind that innocent parents wouldn't have written that garbage, grieving parents wouldn't have written it either-so I came to the conclusion that they were not grieving parents. Patsy was nothing more than the ultimate stage mother. I really believe that she could not seperate herself from her daughter. JonBenet's attention, applause, & accolades were for her. When JonBenet won, Patsy won. When JonBenet lost, Patsy lost. Patsy had cancer & knew it was going to kill her, so in her mind, it was killing JonBenet-or should have been. I really think she thought like that & would not have wanted JonBenet to go on living, if she couldn't-because she was jealous. She wouldn't want young, pretty, show-business bound, JonBenet to reap the benefits of HER hard work, without her. (AND still be with her daddy). Does that make sense? I don't think the murder was premeditated, but I do believe that she had given it some previous thought, & knew that she could deal with it. & no matter how they down-played their participation, their beauty pagent involvement was NOT normal. That was one sick & twisted family.
     
  15. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    I know EXACTLY what you mean.
     
  16. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dodie.

    I don't think the murder was premeditated, but I do believe that she had given it some previous thought, & knew that she could deal with it. -D

    That's kinda what I've always wondered, when that terrible abusive picture of PR is painted, or piecemealed? why exclude the consideration that there was premeditation, that the deadly blow was premeditated? .
     
  17. justthinkin

    justthinkin New Member

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    Before I get into what you wrote Ravyn, I'd like to say to Super Dave,way to go, you reeled me back in with this topic because I had no idea what you meant at first. BTW great theory, and one, I would have a hard time disagreeing with.

    That PR was a narcissist is obvious to me. One look at PR's Miss America contest photo, and it is also obvious her beauty never held a candle to that of her daughter's. Was there some aspect of PR's personality that hated the knowledge of that while also reveling in being the "stage mom" of a beauty queen? I think so. Jonbenet didn't create Jonbenet the beauty queen, but PR was certainly responsible for that, and it likely made her think more highly of herself, ie., "Jonbenet would be nothing without me." Hypothethical quote. Now, what would a PR think if this little beauty queen she made, also drew the affections of her husband? Wouldn't that be a slap in the face? If PR also had some borderline tendencies, Jonbenet may have been a beauty queen PR doted on one minute, and thought of as a little trollup the next. A real love/hate set-up. Add in Jonbenet's wetting her pants and soiling herself, and it's enough to drive a narcissistic mother who is striving for perfection in her daughter, insane. Jonbenet's incontinence was the strongest power she had over her mother. If Jonbenet had an accident, she could cause PR to lose self-control. While the child was psychologically unaware of this, it's likely her mother wasn't, and may have suspected that Jonbenet did this on purpose. Th night of the 25th., PR reached her breaking point, and snapped. A part of her may have wished Jonbenet dead for some time since instead of getting better, Jonbenet's flaw was becoming worse.

    Ravyn, the staging was vital to the notoriety of the case, intending to cast Jonbenet as the tragic little beauty queen, cast PR into the limelight as the tragic, grieving, and beautiful mother, while at the same time recalling PR's time as a beauty queen herself. The paint brush goes back to the love/hate relationship, and the trollup aspect. PR likely blamed Jonbenet more than she blamed JR, seeing Jonbenet as the seducer rather than the victim. Jonbenet had to be as large in death as she was in life to make PR more important.

    This is OT, but does anyone think the round marks on Jonbenet's face and back may have come from brief burns from a kitchen torch?
     
  18. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    What exactly is a kitchen torch? I would not doubt that Patsy was very abusive to JonBenet. I mean...she wound up dead. That's the worst form of abuse, so I think it's probable that this wasn't the 1st instance of abuse. I'm a mother of 2 daughters, & when my oldest daughter was younger, you would not believe the irrational anger I sometimes felt over her softball pitching. I wanted perfection & sometimes, it took every bit of my constraint to not lash out & slap her. I never acted on that anger & that was a part of myself that I couldn't stand. I even had a dream where I was relentlessly & very methodically beating her about the head & face. I've never been an abusive parent-quite the opposite, actually. I dote on my daughters & love them dearly. But, I don't think I'm much different from a lot of moms & I've seen that competiveness in every possible area-from sports, to grades, to looks, etc... Most mothers have a compulsion for their daughters to be the best & are the main driving forces behind them. What I think is this...maybe Patsy didn't just dream about hurting JonBenet. Maybe she relentlessly & very methodically abused her & THIS time, she went too far. I don't mean to disturb any of you, but I'm just trying to explain a darker side to mothering, that isn't talked about much. I remember reading that Patsy took JonBenet to the dr. a lot, so the abuse & then the dr. appointments may have all been part of a disorder, to get attention-because if nothing else, we know that Patsy loved attention.
     
  19. Ripley007

    Ripley007 New Member

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    re: rage from cancer stress etc...Sure. that may have come into play. But one doesnt have to be suffering from cancer or any illness to feel (natural) rage and stress when dealing with a cronic bedwetting child. I know. You have to control your anger and stress about being awoken in the middle of the night to change your child's clothes and bedding. It can get very exhausting......pile that situation ontop of Christmas night, after getting little sleep the night before, and then a full day of activities...a major trip in the morning....good lord. I don't blame P for "snapping". I blame her for not getting medical attention for her daughter after she (presumably) got too rough with her child and caused her to fall and hit her head. WHAT was she thinking??? P must have believed that everyone would find out that it was HER fault that JB got a head injury and that no one would ever respect her again. But...if her child had been raped/murdered, then just the opposite would happen. Everyone would be mourning with her. Sick. Just sick. JMHO
     
  20. justthinkin

    justthinkin New Member

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    dodie, a kitchen torch is a small torch used, among other things, to carmelize the sugar on a dessert called creme brulee. Depending on how close the torch is held or how far, it can leave small rounded burn marks. For some reason I can't post a pic to this thread, but you can google images of creme brulee. On the first page of images is a pic of a maple syrup creme brulee that shows a brown spot seemingly about the size of the marks on Jonbenet's face and back. I would think that someone like Patsy would own one.
     
  21. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The marks on JB were not burns. The coroner would have known that. The small circular marks actually resembled cigarette burns to me, but again, they would not have been described by the coroner as "abrasions", which is what he said.
    IF they had been made by a stun gun, they would be electrical burns, which would damage the tissue in a different way. LE wanted to exhume the body to test for evidence of electrical burns but the parents refused.
    A kitchen torch may brown a creme brulee, but would not have made such perfect little circles if they touched flesh. The surrounding skin would also show evidence of damage if it had been any kind of open flame, and the margins would not be so defined. That's why I think we must rule out the torch or anything like a match or other open flame. An open flame is not like a laser, which is very precise and could probably make round burns like that. Laser pointer anywhere in the house? We don't know.
    The marks have always puzzled me. I have to say that they DO look like stun gun marks to me, though I have not seen that type of mark in person. Could it be something she was pressed against? I guess so, but to have the marks in the two places they were found don't make sense to me. Let's say she was laying on something that had buttons or metal snaps (which is what one forensic specialist theorized when he saw them). That might account for the ones on her back. But on her cheek? I guess if that was what made them, she was on her back first and then on her stomach, with her cheek to the side.
     

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