Amen. Disgusting is the best of it. I didn't start this thread to be insulted. I posted what I see as a legitimate possible answer to some legitimate questions.
:clap: Thank you.
Loved to Death
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Amen. Disgusting is the best of it. I didn't start this thread to be insulted. I posted what I see as a legitimate possible answer to some legitimate questions.
:clap: Thank you.
Super, that is the whole point. It is disgusting. And, to me, to attribute to this mom the cold, calculating, evil capacity to stage the death of her baby daughter is sickening. It is not funny and it is not fair or reasonable. There is no credible evidence to justify portraying her as that kind of person.
To give you the benefit of the doubt, I had a feeling that was your motive for your descriptions. However, that stiletto comment was over-the-top, and NOTHING like that happened. That was just sick.
Sarcasm n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
To paint Patsy Ramsey as a mentally ill, bad tempered, violent, cold, calculating narcissistic *****, demanding absolute perfection of her daughter so she could enjoy, vicariously, her astounding achievements in the realm of physical beauty contests is a terrible injustice to this woman. To accuse her of all manner of selfishness, pettiness, egocentricity and bizarre, immature, foolish, childish, deceitful behavior adds more insult to injury. To examine her every move and statement, cough, hesitation, rapidity of blinking, her choices in clothing herself and her daughter under the exaggerated magnification of the entire world's scrutiny is a crime, in itself. Everyone willing to undergo such an invasion of his privacy without a moment's notice, might we find a skeleton or three on thee?
No, Super it isn't funny and what Patsy endured while she was living, as we shoveled on manner of hell on her, and through her, onto JonBenet, John, Burke, her and his folks, etc. isn't funny. She didn't have a chance.
This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.
I almost forgot. Add to this gory, gory list: Patsy made a garrote and took a busted stick, wrapped it around her baby's neck until she bled. She tightened it sufficiently to convince crime scene investigators she died from strangulation, and not from a head wound Patsy inflicted, in a not so rare moment of violent rage, accidentally. And that she conceived of and carried out this crime to avoid jail, not knowing for sure if she was causing Joni inexpressible pain in the process, because she didn't have time to see if she was dead.
This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.
This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.
How does it feel, to be own your own, with no direction home, like a rolling stone...
The manner of Joni's death was not the object under consideration.
Contrasting the thought processes of a wonderful, loving, nurturing mother with those of a cowardly monster was the point. Instead of trying to identify with her pain or appreciate the depth of her sorrow, we leap straight into her sick psyche, attaching every conceivable moral weakness and failure to her.
We love to hate this woman and her husband. They "are" something that disturbs us, that eats at us. We don't like them and we don't trust them. So much so, in fact, that we frame dark, ugly theories about their motives. We see plainly a fabricated crime scene and ransom note, left there by this rotten, devious animal, who compels her kid onto the stage of ostentatious beauty pageants exclusively of and for the rich. The six year old child, a blond, blue-eyed beauty, the alter ego of an aging, spoiled, selfish, nouveau riche witch, who forced her by innuendo, at least in the minds of many, into a type of grown-up exhibitionism and grueling, adult-like competition.
Patsy was not capable of hurting a hair on her head. Patsy would have carried her to a hospital in freezing rain and ten feet of snow wearing nothing but rags from Salvation Army counters to save that child's life. Criminal charges, "doing time" would have meant nothing to her. The only thing she feared was not doing everything and more she possibly could to save the life of her little one. Yet, she is portrayed as the Lucifer of modernity, of excess, of wealthy, self-involved sorority types who refuse to grow-up.
and that sucks
Interesting point- NO RDI that I am aware of thinks the manner of JB's death is either amusing or fodder for sarcasm.
Yet with some IDI lately, they seem to take a perverse pleasure in describing imagined ways her death occurred.
The manner of Joni's death was not the object under consideration.
Contrasting the thought processes of a wonderful, loving, nurturing mother with those of a cowardly monster was the point. Instead of trying to identify with her pain or appreciate the depth of her sorrow, we leap straight into her sick psyche, attaching every conceivable moral weakness and failure to her.
We love to hate this woman and her husband. They "are" something that disturbs us, that eats at us. We don't like them and we don't trust them. So much so, in fact, that we frame dark, ugly theories about their motives. We see plainly a fabricated crime scene and ransom note, left there by this rotten, devious animal, who compels her kid onto the stage of ostentatious beauty pageants exclusively of and for the rich. The six year old child, a blond, blue-eyed beauty, the alter ego of an aging, spoiled, selfish, nouveau riche witch, who forced her by innuendo, at least in the minds of many, into a type of grown-up exhibitionism and grueling, adult-like competition.
Patsy was not capable of hurting a hair on her head. Patsy would have carried her to a hospital in freezing rain and ten feet of snow wearing nothing but rags from Salvation Army counters to save that child's life. Criminal charges, "doing time" would have meant nothing to her. The only thing she feared was not doing everything and more she possibly could to save the life of her little one. Yet, she is portrayed as the Lucifer of modernity, of excess, of wealthy, self-involved sorority types who refuse to grow-up.
and that sucks
Interesting point- NO RDI that I am aware of thinks the manner of JB's death is either amusing or fodder for sarcasm.
Yet with some IDI lately, they seem to take a perverse pleasure in describing imagined ways her death occurred.
MurriFlower
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Watch this and then tell me again that Patsy did it. If you think this is acting, then it's not me who's sick.
http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=cAFmNapkpfQ
Patsy was so obviously drugged. It was a disgrace that she was allowed to go on national TV that way.
Yes, I still think Patsy COULD have done it. Accidentally, and with help for the cover-up. Not alone. Not deliberately. And I am not devoted exclusively to the Patsy Did It theory. I am sure only of one thing, and have a clear conscience about it- that the parents KNOW what happened that night.
You know they know. Based on what? I know I can look it up. I'm not asking you for generalities. Specifically, why do you believe they "KNEW?" How is it possible to arrive at that conclusion? That's a pretty big matzah ball hanging out there.
Super, if you and RDI don't mind, would you be willing to share your opinions regarding Patsy's thought process immediately following whatever caused JonBenet's cracked skull, in specific terms? That is to say, would you try to capture and put into words (a post) just what actions she took into consideration and what plans she pondered as reality began to sink in regarding what had just happened, in light of the range of consequences she would face? I mean, she had to do some thinking when she staged the crime scene. What thoughts went through her mind, do you suppose. Obviously, we can't know for sure, but what is your best guess?
I'll try. Keep in mind that I am not exclusively PDI, so my thought here reflect only what would occur if Patsy did it.
That night as they returned home after a pleasant but hectic day, Patsy, tired already, still had her mind on all the things she had to finish that night before their early-morning flight.
JB, who was cranky after falling asleep in the car but awakened and walked into the house, (this was told to LE by BR), was resistant to getting ready for bed, wanting to stay up and play. She refused to go potty, as Patsy usually tried to have her go before bed so she wouldn't go IN the bed. At some point after BR (and maybe even JR) had gone to bed, Patsy, still up doing last minute things, tries again, and finds that JB has not only wet, but soiled her pants. Patsy becomes enraged, dragging a crying JB into the bathroom, where a full-blown tantrum ensues. Patsy grabs JB around the shirt collar (the red turtleneck, which Patsy put on her so she could wear it the next day and be easier to dress in the wee morning hours. That was soiled, too, so Patsy pulls it off, violently and JB's head is bashed HARD into either a doorknob, sink edge or faucet. Patsy realizes in HORROR that she has been too rough, too forceful and JB slumps, instantly unconscious, to the floor. She laspes into a coma, breath slowed to almost nothing. Body cools as shock sets in from the massive skull fracture, the bleeding under the scalp not apparent- no opening in the flesh. Yet she seemed dead.
Patsy is beside her self with horror and grief. She LOVES JB and now look what she's done! Those damned medications. I haven't been myself since I've been on them, she thinks. I'll NEVER take them again (and she didn't- JR claimed Patsy stopped her Klonipin after JB'd death).
But her mind was racing as she faced the horror of a (presumably) dead JB and SHE had caused it, though accidentally.
She gets JR, who is horrified also. They take her to the basement to get as far away from BR's room as they can while they try to figure what to do. Patsy is hysterical, JR is catatonic. They know that even if it was an accident, it was still done in a rage so Patsy will be charged with SOMETHING. After beating cancer 10 years, she'll go to JAIL? What of BR? He'll lose his sister AND his mother? Who knows how long Patsy will live? What if she dies in prison? What of her son? If they call 911, they are going to ask what happened. What to say? There are no VISIBLE causes of death.
They get the idea to say she was kidnapped, and the note said not to call anyone, so if they DO call police that would be a reason for the "kidnappers" to kill her. They decide to make it look like a kidnapping, yet still need to provide a way she died. They didn't know that there was a hole in her skull. So they made a garrote out of what was handy and staged the death to look like a murder. They couldn't bear to leave her in plain view, so they hid her in the wineceller, taking her blanket from the basement dryer (where Patsy knew it was out by LHP the last time she was there) and wrapped her in the blanket. Because of her deep coma/shock, her life signs were not apparent and they did not know she was alive when the garrote was applied.
All this was necessary, however horrible, to protect BT from losing his mother and to keep Patsy out of jail, which would surely cause a relapse.
Then, it kind of just carried them along, like a rushing river. Once they took a step, they had to finish the race. They didn't stop to think about an autopsy or the pineapple Patsy gave her before bed that night. Nor did they know a neighbor had heard her scream. Or that another neighbor had seen "moving lights" in the kitchen. (This was them, having turned off the kitchen lights so they could carry JB though the kitchen to the basement, using a flashlight to do it. Later, they wiped the flashlight, but they realized that if they planned to say the flashlight wasn't theirs, they knew they needed to wipe the batteries down too. Then they needed to call 911. They did, after writing a note that seemed to blame some obscure group that was upset about JR's business. I think they chose the wording "we respect your bussiness (sic) but not the country that it serves" because if they actually pointed to a business rival, they knew there was no evidence, and they could be sued. So the first "suspect" they put out was LHP, too poor and uneducated to afford top-rate legal council.
And the rest...you all know.
Fang, just bear with me, all right? I have a lot to say.
If you read the posting that opens this thread, you'll see that "cold, calculating evil" doesn't enter into it. More on that in a minute.
You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not portraying her as the James Bond villain you suggest.
Look, before you say anything else, let me say this. I understand how difficult it is for a lot of people, regardless of what side they are on, to think like I do. But that's what makes me so unique and gives me (I think) so much insight: I'm not afraid to confront the darkness in the human soul, the darkness that most people would prefer not to acknowledge exists. I can open the doors that most people want to keep locked. Look, I understand the appeal of IDI: it allows us to hold onto our idealized idea of parenthood and most of all, it absolves us from having to face those parts of ourselves that we don't want to face.
So when you say that it is "sickening" to attribute this to her, I agree with you completely, but for much different reasons. It IS sickening to most people. That's the whole problem: they can't think in those terms because it's too damn scary.
And as for it not being reasonable to attribute such capabilities, that's where you and I have to part company, because it's entirely reasonable to me. I'm all too aware of what amazing feats human beings are capable of given the right catalyst. I've had to learn the hard way that ANYONE is capable of ANYTHING. It's a hard lesson for a hard world, and we had all damn well better learn it.
Let me finish by saying that my objective is not to attribute evil to anyone, much less Patsy Ramsey. Indeed, as I've said many times before, I'd give anything not to believe what I believe. You mock and belittle me, and that saddens me greatly, because I'm doing my level best to open up avenues of thought that would not otherwise occur to many other people. So, all I ask for right now is for you, even if it's only for a brief moment, no matter how unpleasant it is, to give my thoughts the same serious consideration that you would like me to give yours(which I honestly try to do).
Agreed. That's not what I'm trying to do. DD is right: Patsy's own words and actions showed me what she was all about. That doesn't mean I'm unsympathetic.
Damn right.
Do you think I LIKE doing this, Fang? Do you think I WANT to believe what I believe? Especially on a day like this--Mother's Day? I arrived at these conclusions after a LONG period of consideration, and it hurts every day.
I agree, but in a much different way than you suggest.
WRONG! There is NOTHING about this I like!
Never tell me someone's not capable of something.
Fang, I'm doing EVERYTHING I can to keep this discussion civil. But I'm convinced at this point that my opening post was not carefully read, or if it was, no serious attempt was made to truly understand it.
My posts are not motivated by hatred. Anyone who thinks that doesn't know me. I CRIED when Patsy died. I was devastated watching my own mother, who never prayed, say the rosary and plead for her soul. Today is Mother's Day. That pain is still there, coupled by the subsequent loss of my own mother to cancer. I believe what I believe because that's where my eyes, ears and gut lead me.
Do any of you still think I'm a monster? That I'm completely without feeling or sympathy? Don't ever judge me until you walk a mile in my boots.
So, bearing all of that in mind, maybe we should give this thread another try.
Not that it's anybody's business, but no, I don't.
Fang, I can try, if I know it will be treated seriously. I actually posted what I think in the first post of "Ask Super Part 2," but that might not be what you had in mind.
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