MA MA - Joan Risch, 30, Lincoln, 24 Oct 1961

Ciriii57

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With reports of Joan being seen elsewhere on the day she disappeared, I still agree with the LE investigation. They used scent dogs a day later, I think. They took them to the locations around the area where people reported seeing someone who looked like Joan. The scent dogs didn't track her scent at any of those places, even though they tracked her at her home and in her yard and driveway.
Really, I wasn't aware that the scent hounds had been taken to the locations of the sightings. Do you know where that was mentioned? That puts a different spin on the witness sightings of "Joan" if correct....
But for some reason I just can't dismiss them, it seems such a coincidence that there was another woman in the area in similar clothes and with perhaps bloody that was in distress and yet never came forward or was identified.
I also wonder if said woman had mud on her legs, and not blood, whether that could have masked her scent. I'm certainly no expert but I seem to recall that mud can hide a person's scent? Or have I just made that up?
 

Betty P

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Really, I wasn't aware that the scent hounds had been taken to the locations of the sightings. Do you know where that was mentioned? That puts a different spin on the witness sightings of "Joan" if correct....
But for some reason I just can't dismiss them, it seems such a coincidence that there was another woman in the area in similar clothes and with perhaps bloody that was in distress and yet never came forward or was identified.
I also wonder if said woman had mud on her legs, and not blood, whether that could have masked her scent. I'm certainly no expert but I seem to recall that mud can hide a person's scent? Or have I just made that up?

Yes, it's in the book "A Kitchen Painted in Blood". The writer is a retired attorney who was 12 and living a couple of towns away when it happened. When he retired, he went to the library and also got copies of the investigation files. There was a little more detailed information about the scent dogs than had been reported in the news media.


Considering it was 1961, local and state LE did a pretty thorough investigation. They followed up all the tips. If you haven't read this book, give it a try, its very good.

They did take the scent hounds to, IIRC, three different locations where people reported seeing a woman who they thought was Joan. I think they did all of this on the same day, when the scent at her home was fresh. The conclusion seemed to be that she got into a car at her home/driveway and was driven away. She didn't walk down the road, nor did she get out of a car at any of the places where tipsters saw a woman who looked like her.

ETA JMO, eyewitnesses can often get things wrong. It happens. I think it's even more likely when someone sees something as they're passing someone on a roadside or highway. You're just getting a glimpse of something or someone, especially in a rearview mirror. Imaginations work overtime with news of a local woman gone missing from her bloody kitchen. The witnesses probably had good intentions and wanted to help.
 
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Ciriii57

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Okay, I have been delving deep into every bit of info I can find on this one, I was certain that it could be solved beyond a reasonable doubt and I have just now finished “A kitchen painted in blood” and I have to say what an extremely well-researched and excellently written account. Steven J. Ahern has done an excellent job and I am thoroughly convinced by his argument (I was starting to lean that way even before reading the book). I always suspected it was a family member or close friend and with the brilliantly researched facts about the various problems in the Nattrass family, it seems only logical. (I don’t want to give too much away for those who haven’t yet read the book).

I was originally under the impression that the original investigation was not very thorough, but I now realise that LE did a very good job and seemingly left no stone unturned. The fact that Joan’s cousin/stepbrother was the only person out of quite a long list of potential suspects whose alibi didn’t check out, that he had apparently fallen in with dubious characters and that he and Joan were already on opposite sides in the family argument lends itself to this theory. Knowing that Joan’s Uncle did ,in the end, move to California to join his wife and daughter after Joan had disappeared, the very thing Joan had been trying to prevent, leads me to believe that the opposition to this move (ie; Joan) had been “removed”.

There are just a couple of points where I would go further than Mr. Ahern. The book never says never and only cautiously dismisses theories, but I just cannot seem to shake the importance of the Oldsmobile and the sightings. It seems to me that it is just too much of a coincidence that there was a bloody woman dressed in similar clothes to Joan wandering around dazed and confused who was never identified and eliminated from enquiries.

Therefore it is my theory that it was indeed Ben Nattrass and a friend (perhaps his roommate who was apparently a “dubious character”) who visited Joan that fateful day, probably driving in the two-tone Oldsmobile that was seen in her driveway, possibly it had been stolen earlier by them (we know that the car was stolen at some point, we don’t know if it was before or after the 24th October and we don’t know where from). Despite not getting along, Joan probably did let Ben into the house as he was her step-brother/cousin. Ben would have been trying to get Joan to stop influencing his mother and sisters to remain in California and to stop making accusations of sexual abuse against his father, to whom he remained loyal. I doubt we will ever know the sequence of events in the kitchen but clearly there was an argument and someone was injured, though I suspect this injury was not life threatening at first and blood was trailed around the kitchen. Joan probably attempted to call someone for help at which point either Ben or his accomplice panicked and ripped the phone’s handset off the wall. I don’t think Ben ever meant to harm Joan but to scare her, and at this point I think the decision was made to take Joan to hospital. A bleeding Joan was taken out to the Oldsmobile in the drive. At this point she either made a run for it and left her blood on her own car, or else she leant on her car for support in her weakened state. The Oldsmobile backed out of the drive and headed North, seen by Hilda Ziegler. Again the sequence of events from here is pure speculation on my part; but I think that Ben and his accomplice, by now panicking and possibly arguing with each other as well, let Joan out of the car somewhere along or near Route 128. They probably hoped that she would be found or taken to hospital by someone and, as long as she didn’t mention their names, they would be in the clear. They may have threatened something in order that she wouldn’t accuse them.

Unfortunately Joan never made it to a hospital and no one who saw her helped her. She wandered, dazed and getting weaker and weaker from an injury that, although not at first fatal, untreated left her closer to death and exhausted. I think this is why the police described Ben as so distressed when they first told him that Joan was missing and questioned him; because he had assumed that Joan by now was probably back at home and on the mend. It may also explain why LE couldn’t find him later for a second round of questioning; I think he fled in fear until the investigation had died down a bit. I don’t think Ben intentionally murdered Joan, but certainly his actions led to her death. I would be interested to know what the relationship between the Risches and the Nattrasses was after Joan’s disappearance. Like LE, I get the impression that Martin Risch knew more than he let on. I think he may have been aware that Joan was alive when she was last seen by Ben and that’s why he always held out a hope that she was alive somewhere with amnesia. I can’t say why he didn’t tell anyone if he did know.

I am aware that this theory leaves several things unexplained which some may find annoying (me included) but it does seem that every theory about this case seems to leave something out…it seems impossible to explain all the things in one theory. Mine doesn’t account for:

  • Sniffer dogs and searchers finding no evidence of Joan. I can’t explain why, except to say they don’t have 100% success rate and I guess they just missed her.
  • The lack of a body. Honestly I tried to find her. I trawled the unidentified decedents on NAMUS for several states and the closest I could come up with was that a fair amount of bones have been found that, unless DNA tested, will probably never be identified. If not her, then I think it is possible that Joan is still were she died and was just never found-I notice how much thick woodland covers the area and I think she is still I there somewhere.
  • The blood in the bedrooms. I can only surmise that someone went up to the bedrooms while bloody, maybe not even Joan, it may have been Lillian later on.
  • The apparent clean-up. I am of the opinion that little Lillian tried to clean up the mess in the kitchen and then went upstairs. Either that or Joan herself began cleaning up during the confused time before she was abducted.
  • The sighting on Route 2A. I don’t think this was Joan. If it was then it means that she either made it that far on her own without trying to get help, or that she was taken and let out of the car twice, which doesn’t seem likely.
  • The “red” thing that Joan was seen apparently chasing after. I think that this was either David who had woken up from his nap and maybe was wearing red, or Barbara inadvertently saw Joan greet her visitors when they arrived (maybe one was wearing red) but she failed to see the car or people clearly. I don’t think Barbara can have been as eagle-eyed as we have been led to believe since at this point the children had been back in her yard for 20 mins and she apparently wasn’t aware of the fact.


Well I am sure there are more things. Again, to reiterate, just my own theory, but it works for me and has made some semblance of all the different strands in this case that were going through my head! Since we don’t know then everyone’s theories at this point are equally valid I suppose.

If nothing else, then I hope you all enjoyed the read. For tjose of you that haven’t yet, I strongly recommend getting your hands on a copy if “A kitchen painted in Blood” by Stephen J Ahern.
 

dogperson

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Okay, I have been delving deep into every bit of info I can find on this one, I was certain that it could be solved beyond a reasonable doubt and I have just now finished “A kitchen painted in blood” and I have to say what an extremely well-researched and excellently written account. Steven J. Ahern has done an excellent job and I am thoroughly convinced by his argument (I was starting to lean that way even before reading the book). I always suspected it was a family member or close friend and with the brilliantly researched facts about the various problems in the Nattrass family, it seems only logical. (I don’t want to give too much away for those who haven’t yet read the book).

I was originally under the impression that the original investigation was not very thorough, but I now realise that LE did a very good job and seemingly left no stone unturned. The fact that Joan’s cousin/stepbrother was the only person out of quite a long list of potential suspects whose alibi didn’t check out, that he had apparently fallen in with dubious characters and that he and Joan were already on opposite sides in the family argument lends itself to this theory. Knowing that Joan’s Uncle did ,in the end, move to California to join his wife and daughter after Joan had disappeared, the very thing Joan had been trying to prevent, leads me to believe that the opposition to this move (ie; Joan) had been “removed”.

There are just a couple of points where I would go further than Mr. Ahern. The book never says never and only cautiously dismisses theories, but I just cannot seem to shake the importance of the Oldsmobile and the sightings. It seems to me that it is just too much of a coincidence that there was a bloody woman dressed in similar clothes to Joan wandering around dazed and confused who was never identified and eliminated from enquiries.

Therefore it is my theory that it was indeed Ben Nattrass and a friend (perhaps his roommate who was apparently a “dubious character”) who visited Joan that fateful day, probably driving in the two-tone Oldsmobile that was seen in her driveway, possibly it had been stolen earlier by them (we know that the car was stolen at some point, we don’t know if it was before or after the 24th October and we don’t know where from). Despite not getting along, Joan probably did let Ben into the house as he was her step-brother/cousin. Ben would have been trying to get Joan to stop influencing his mother and sisters to remain in California and to stop making accusations of sexual abuse against his father, to whom he remained loyal. I doubt we will ever know the sequence of events in the kitchen but clearly there was an argument and someone was injured, though I suspect this injury was not life threatening at first and blood was trailed around the kitchen. Joan probably attempted to call someone for help at which point either Ben or his accomplice panicked and ripped the phone’s handset off the wall. I don’t think Ben ever meant to harm Joan but to scare her, and at this point I think the decision was made to take Joan to hospital. A bleeding Joan was taken out to the Oldsmobile in the drive. At this point she either made a run for it and left her blood on her own car, or else she leant on her car for support in her weakened state. The Oldsmobile backed out of the drive and headed North, seen by Hilda Ziegler. Again the sequence of events from here is pure speculation on my part; but I think that Ben and his accomplice, by now panicking and possibly arguing with each other as well, let Joan out of the car somewhere along or near Route 128. They probably hoped that she would be found or taken to hospital by someone and, as long as she didn’t mention their names, they would be in the clear. They may have threatened something in order that she wouldn’t accuse them.

Unfortunately Joan never made it to a hospital and no one who saw her helped her. She wandered, dazed and getting weaker and weaker from an injury that, although not at first fatal, untreated left her closer to death and exhausted. I think this is why the police described Ben as so distressed when they first told him that Joan was missing and questioned him; because he had assumed that Joan by now was probably back at home and on the mend. It may also explain why LE couldn’t find him later for a second round of questioning; I think he fled in fear until the investigation had died down a bit. I don’t think Ben intentionally murdered Joan, but certainly his actions led to her death. I would be interested to know what the relationship between the Risches and the Nattrasses was after Joan’s disappearance. Like LE, I get the impression that Martin Risch knew more than he let on. I think he may have been aware that Joan was alive when she was last seen by Ben and that’s why he always held out a hope that she was alive somewhere with amnesia. I can’t say why he didn’t tell anyone if he did know.

I am aware that this theory leaves several things unexplained which some may find annoying (me included) but it does seem that every theory about this case seems to leave something out…it seems impossible to explain all the things in one theory. Mine doesn’t account for:

  • Sniffer dogs and searchers finding no evidence of Joan. I can’t explain why, except to say they don’t have 100% success rate and I guess they just missed her.
  • The lack of a body. Honestly I tried to find her. I trawled the unidentified decedents on NAMUS for several states and the closest I could come up with was that a fair amount of bones have been found that, unless DNA tested, will probably never be identified. If not her, then I think it is possible that Joan is still were she died and was just never found-I notice how much thick woodland covers the area and I think she is still I there somewhere.
  • The blood in the bedrooms. I can only surmise that someone went up to the bedrooms while bloody, maybe not even Joan, it may have been Lillian later on.
  • The apparent clean-up. I am of the opinion that little Lillian tried to clean up the mess in the kitchen and then went upstairs. Either that or Joan herself began cleaning up during the confused time before she was abducted.
  • The sighting on Route 2A. I don’t think this was Joan. If it was then it means that she either made it that far on her own without trying to get help, or that she was taken and let out of the car twice, which doesn’t seem likely.
  • The “red” thing that Joan was seen apparently chasing after. I think that this was either David who had woken up from his nap and maybe was wearing red, or Barbara inadvertently saw Joan greet her visitors when they arrived (maybe one was wearing red) but she failed to see the car or people clearly. I don’t think Barbara can have been as eagle-eyed as we have been led to believe since at this point the children had been back in her yard for 20 mins and she apparently wasn’t aware of the fact.


Well I am sure there are more things. Again, to reiterate, just my own theory, but it works for me and has made some semblance of all the different strands in this case that were going through my head! Since we don’t know then everyone’s theories at this point are equally valid I suppose.

If nothing else, then I hope you all enjoyed the read. For tjose of you that haven’t yet, I strongly recommend getting your hands on a copy if “A kitchen painted in Blood” by Stephen J Ahern.
I'm saving my Amazon Points to get the book soon. I've been looking forward to reading it. From everything that's been said about it I think it must be the best account of the Risch case yet.
 

DD Byrd

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Is it known whether Martin was out of town the first time the mystery car was spotted? If he was, that tells me that A) whoever did this wanted to be there with no interference and B) he knew Martin wasn't there because either Joan told him or someone who knew the Risches well knew he wasn't. Either way that it brings it closer to home, so to speak.

As for the woman wandering dazed, I think at least one might've been her. Eyewitnesses are unreliable with a lot of facts, but a wandering woman with blood running down her legs and clutching her stomach is pretty specific. Unless you have multiple attention-grabbers feeding off an initial report. I'm curious if the same dogs from the house were used at the other "sighting" locations. Some are more accurate than others. And it stands to reason that her driveway to the neighbors would have carried more scent because she made at least 2 passes and lived there. And we know she had gone to the driveway to get to the car to get to the dentist.
 

DD Byrd

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Is it known whether Martin was out of town the first time the mystery car was spotted? If he was, that tells me that A) whoever did this wanted to be there with no interference and B) he knew Martin wasn't there because either Joan told him or someone who knew the Risches well knew he wasn't. Either way that it brings it closer to home, so to speak.

As for the woman wandering dazed, I think at least one might've been her. Eyewitnesses are unreliable with a lot of facts, but a wandering woman with blood running down her legs and clutching her stomach is pretty specific. Unless you have multiple attention-grabbers feeding off an initial report. I'm curious if the same dogs from the house were used at the other "sighting" locations. Some are more accurate than others. And it stands to reason that her driveway to the neighbors would have carried more scent because she made at least 2 passes and lived there. And we know she had gone to the driveway to get to the car to get to the dentist.
 

MesquiteO21

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Regarding the get-together the Risches had with the Kawais and the Butlers shortly before she went missing, it almost seems like Joan was providing an alibi for herself?

for those who don't know, on October 15, 1961, Martin and Joan got together with two other couples: The Kawais were a couple from Japan; the husband was a visiting professor at Harvard. The Butlers were neighbors. The Kawais had mentioned that they left their children behind in Japan while they were living in Massachusetts. Joan reportedly responded to this by saying she could never leave her children, she would miss them too much.

This might seem like a rather innocuous, off-handed comment but what is curious is that both Mr. Kawai and Mrs. Butler noted Joan's demeanor. Mr. Kawai judged her to be in a "mood" and Mrs. Butler thought Joan appeared so nervous she took her aside and asked if everything was alright.

Seeing as this was only 9 days before she went missing and her behavior was notable enough for Mr. Kawai and Mrs. Butler to be taken aback, I'm getting the feeling that someone may have threatened her. "I can make it look like you left your life behind"

this could maybe be a reach, i know, but she made that comment while visibly tense/nervous, and then she goes missing shortly after? seems more than a coincidence IMO
 

jgfitzge

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Regarding the get-together the Risches had with the Kawais and the Butlers shortly before she went missing, it almost seems like Joan was providing an alibi for herself?

for those who don't know, on October 15, 1961, Martin and Joan got together with two other couples: The Kawais were a couple from Japan; the husband was a visiting professor at Harvard. The Butlers were neighbors. The Kawais had mentioned that they left their children behind in Japan while they were living in Massachusetts. Joan reportedly responded to this by saying she could never leave her children, she would miss them too much.

This might seem like a rather innocuous, off-handed comment but what is curious is that both Mr. Kawai and Mrs. Butler noted Joan's demeanor. Mr. Kawai judged her to be in a "mood" and Mrs. Butler thought Joan appeared so nervous she took her aside and asked if everything was alright.

Seeing as this was only 9 days before she went missing and her behavior was notable enough for Mr. Kawai and Mrs. Butler to be taken aback, I'm getting the feeling that someone may have threatened her. "I can make it look like you left your life behind"

this could maybe be a reach, i know, but she made that comment while visibly tense/nervous, and then she goes missing shortly after? seems more than a coincidence IMO
Not sure if she was setting up an alibi. However, after reading Ahern’s book, I get the impression from the author that something was on Joan’s mind in those early weeks of October. Specifically, she seemed pre occupied with some upcoming event. In fact, I highlighted a note in the book where the author mentioned Joan having a beer with lunch on the day of her disappearance. I found this note curious.
 

jgfitzge

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I read Steven Ahern’s book, Kindle version last year. I made a lot of notes and highlights. When I get a little time I will write a longer commentary. I have followed the case for sometime and live in the area.

One frustrating note off the top of my head has always has been the account of the blue/gray car backing out of the Risch driveway by Hildy Ziegler. Admittedly, I may be biased because I consider myself extremely observant. However, how in the world, can you not see how many people were in the car or whether the driver was male or female. She was stopped, allowing them to do a three point turn and…the car drove past her! I cannot understand how she did not see who was driving? I am not looking for real specifics, just was it a male or female driving and was there more than one passenger in the car?
 
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