MA - Lindsay Clancy - Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt - Duxbury

[WingsOverTX]

RBBM
I need to say this.
If you haven't suffered from post-partum depression or depression, it will be understandably difficult to understand this.
Even when you are at your lowest ebb you have ever been at, and you can still 'put on a smile' and act like a healthy, normal person. You can be laughing and joking with a friend over coffee, then they leave. Half an hour later, you can be wrapped in a blanket in the fetal position, crying and hurting, thinking all your love ones tolerate you and you are worthless, for example.
You can go from fun time Alice to suicidal Rebecca in a minute.
An advert on TV, A bird landing on the fence, dropping the remote control. ANYTHING can trigger you, from 'put a smile on' to a very deep dark hole in the ground.
JME

THIS^^^^
Thank you for saying what I've been thinking. Mental health problems are so multi-faceted in experience & outward presentation.

It is this that causes the most puzzlement unless you have personally experienced it.

I think she needs a better lawyer who does not label her but rather presents facts. I think the prescribers need to explain what she was taking & when. I think her entire mental health history from a young age needs to be examined.

I am sensing a lack of a cohesive care plan once she was in crisis this time because I don't think it's the first time.

I also think she needs to be held criminally responsible for her actions. But much more information is needed. I hope it is gathered and used responsibly.

While every detail does not need to be made public, this case is important to examine for any lessons it can yield to prevent outcomes like this.

JMHO

 

[JerseyGirl]

Analyzing first day of court proceedings in Duxbury mom's murder trial

What was revealed during Lindsay Clancy's arraignment on Tuesday could have a big impact on how the case plays out.

www.wcvb.com

 

[spicyrock]

What time was she found? If it was after the children's bedtime, perhaps he assumed they were in bed until she told him they were in the basement.

It was five-six pm. Which incidentally is troubling for an ambien defense.

It will be harder to defend PPD than PPP. But that level of depression with post-labor hormones and kids to take care of on top of it- I can see how that would be very bad.

I’ve become very interested to see what her prior mental health history is. Maybe that would shed some light on the situation.

 

[iamshadow21]

It was five-six pm. Which incidentally is troubling for an ambien defense.

It will be harder to defend PPD than PPP. But that level of depression with post-labor hormones and kids to take care of on top of it- I can see how that would be very bad.

I’ve become very interested to see what her prior mental health history is. Maybe that would shed some light on the situation.

I know I've read in the last week that a risk factor for PPP can be bipolar and maybe schizophrenia? I don't recall precisely, I'm in bed on my phone and don't have the articles I was reading to hand at the minute. These conditions do not have to have been obvious or diagnosed prior to the pregnancy. No idea if the same is true for PPD.

 

[teachermamalady]

My takeaway was that leading up to this tragedy she didn’t seem like she was in a desperate condition at all. The prosecution laid out how after her inpatient treatment at the beginning of January she had greatly improved and was able to socialize, do activities outside of the house with her kids, and run errands. Her parents even visited the weekend before and saw no signs of trouble. Her husband said she had been having one of her “best days” prior to the death of the children. I just don’t know what more could have been done after her first hospitalization. MOO

Just my opinion/experience - when I was suffering from PPD/PPA and on the wrong medicine, my mom and husband realized the pattern after a couple horrible years that as I would seem to be doing well, I would have a day that was remarkably normal, wonderful, perfect seeming - and that evening seemed to be when I would just ... snap. More unaliving myself than anyone else, but it is a pattern that's not unheard of

 

[spicyrock]

I know I've read in the last week that a risk factor for PPP can be bipolar and maybe schizophrenia? I don't recall precisely, I'm in bed on my phone and don't have the articles I was reading to hand at the minute. These conditions do not have to have been obvious or diagnosed prior to the pregnancy. No idea if the same is true for PPD.

I know with PPD I’ve read there is often a history of depressive episodes. But often not, as well.

I’m curious about her history because I am curious about what her care providers and her family should have seen. What they should and should not have expected of her. The amount of masking she was doing, how hard she was trying- why couldn’t she rest? What expectations were being placed on her?

I read earlier your description of depression- how the world is drained of color and everything is gray. That’s been my experience too. And it can really disconnect you from the world, emotionally disconnect you. It can make it so you can’t feel things. I can see her being in that place.

And full disclosure, I think we need to overhaul our criminal justice system almost as much as I think we need to overhaul our mental health system. I gravitate toward sympathy for criminal offenders much more than most people on here probably do.

But what do you do with someone who commits this sort of crime in depression? That’s true for a lot of people- a lot of people commit crimes during depression. Is that a satisfactory defense? Maybe, if it is very severe and brought on relatively unexpectedly, and you were desperately trying to get help, but if we’re going to say that’s okay for her there are so many other criminals, especially poor and marginalized ones, who deserve the same consideration. It makes me acutely aware of the privilege in play here.

I just don’t know.

 

[teachermamalady]

For me the most damning thing as it relates to psychosis and a possible psychotic state of mind, is that apparently the first thing she communicated from the hospital bed was asking if she needed a lawyer.

I’m not saying she was or she wasn’t. I’m just saying that seems to show she was connected enough to reality to be concerned with her future. She registered the consequences of her actions.

How terrible. Just all around terrible and extremely confusing.

I don't understand this argument about her psychosis. Being in psychosis does not mean that your brain suddenly turns off everything and you have no prior knowledge or capability to connect processes. But, for example, if there's something in your brain telling you that your husband is evil and the world will end if you don't save your children and yourself from his demonic powers, then that same broken brain functionality would also be capable of saying ok he's leaving, now is our chance to save the world. Or if your psychotic brain says God told me that there is going to be a zombie attack and the only way to heaven is to die before they come, now is our chance. Psychosis also doesn't mean lack of memory, when she woke up there's nothing saying that if it were true psychosis, she wouldn't have any recollection. So the connection with reality to recognize that she had done something earth-shatteringly horrific and the demons speaking to her weren't real, the lawyer thing doesn't seem so outrageous. to me.

 

[teachermamalady]

Exactly.
So horrifying and pointless.

My coworker's brother who has had issues for several years had himself committed.
Despite his medicated state, he felt he might literally harm someone, knew it was wrong, and wisely checked himself into a facility.
Just saying this can be an option.

Except, not. I have been there, as have many others. There are so limited beds many places. People sometimes sit in the ER psych "holding" rooms for weeks on end, or are sent home because there's no beds opening any time soon that their insurance will cover.

 

[spicyrock]

I don't understand this argument about her psychosis. Being in psychosis does not mean that your brain suddenly turns off everything and you have no prior knowledge or capability to connect processes. But, for example, if there's something in your brain telling you that your husband is evil and the world will end if you don't save your children and yourself from his demonic powers, then that same broken brain functionality would also be capable of saying ok he's leaving, now is our chance to save the world. Or if your psychotic brain says God told me that there is going to be a zombie attack and the only way to heaven is to die before they come, now is our chance. Psychosis also doesn't mean lack of memory, when she woke up there's nothing saying that if it were true psychosis, she wouldn't have any recollection. So the connection with reality to recognize that she had done something earth-shatteringly horrific and the demons speaking to her weren't real, the lawyer thing doesn't seem so outrageous. to me.

I agree with what you’re saying, generally. I understand psychosis very well. But most people in psychosis don’t care about their future or the consequences- you do what you’ve got to do, consequences be damned. You go to the police telling on yourself, sooner than you say do I need a lawyer?

I’m not saying she’s not psychotic- I’m just saying this question is not what I would expect. Concern for your future is not what I would expect.

ETA- psychosis doesn’t necessarily look the same person to person and it can present in so many ways- I wouldn’t assume that hers would look like another person’s, just to be clear. But the question is still more troubling than the rest of the new information, to me.

 

[iamshadow21]

I know with PPD I’ve read there is often a history of depressive episodes. But often not, as well.

I’m curious about her history because I am curious about what her care providers and her family should have seen. What they should and should not have expected of her. The amount of masking she was doing, how hard she was trying- why couldn’t she rest? What expectations were being placed on her?

I read earlier your description of depression- how the world is drained of color and everything is gray. That’s been my experience too. And it can really disconnect you from the world, emotionally disconnect you. It can make it so you can’t feel things. I can see her being in that place.

And full disclosure, I think we need to overhaul our criminal justice system almost as much as I think we need to overhaul our mental health system. I gravitate toward sympathy for criminal offenders much more than most people on here probably do.

But what do you do with someone who commits this sort of crime in depression? That’s true for a lot of people- a lot of people commit crimes during depression. Is that a satisfactory defense? Maybe, if it is very severe and brought on relatively unexpectedly, and you were desperately trying to get help, but if we’re going to say that’s okay for her there are so many other criminals, especially poor and marginalized ones, who deserve the same consideration. It makes me acutely aware of the privilege in play here.

I just don’t know.

My description was actually the opposite, but yours is one I've commonly heard. I felt like everything around me was colour and movement, while I was in black and white, standing still. It's probably showing my dissociative disorder creeping in there, too. But it was worst when I was on a medication that was absolutely not right for me. I kept telling the doctor, and he'd up the dose, to the point where he was having to ring in for authorisation. I got to the point where I'd had enough, and I consulted the internet about how to safely wean off it. It took I think six months, and I still had "brain shivers" for some time after. I wouldn't advise anyone to do what I did, it's just it was the only course available to me, because the doctor wasn't listening to my very real problems with the drug he'd decided was the solution. Oddly enough, that drug is the only thing that's worked long term for my sister-in-law. Individual reactions are so varied and complex.

 

[spicyrock]

My description was actually the opposite, but yours is one I've commonly heard. I felt like everything around me was colour and movement, while I was in black and white, standing still. It's probably showing my dissociative disorder creeping in there, too. But it was worst when I was on a medication that was absolutely not right for me. I kept telling the doctor, and he'd up the dose, to the point where he was having to ring in for authorisation. I got to the point where I'd had enough, and I consulted the internet about how to safely wean off it. It took I think six months, and I still had "brain shivers" for some time after. I wouldn't advise anyone to do what I did, it's just it was the only course available to me, because the doctor wasn't listening to my very real problems with the drug he'd decided was the solution. Oddly enough, that drug is the only thing that's worked long term for my sister-in-law. Individual reactions are so varied and complex.

Thanks for clarifying! I’m sorry I misread. This is valuable insight, I appreciate it very much.

ETA- I can definitely see how all those sedatives/hypnotics could lead to a very dissociated state.

 

[Marie A]

After reading the details from the State’s presentation yesterday I am conflicted and heartsick.

I want to sincerely thank those of you on this forum who have recently been posting so candidly and openly about their own experiences with mental illness in efforts to enlighten and enkindle.

You are very greatly appreciated as we all try to make sense of this tragedy that just keeps getting more and more painful and horrific.

 

[spicyrock]

In case it becomes relevant I want to mention something. There are two different broad categories of psychosis- positive symptom psychosis and negative symptom psychosis. I’ve spoken from experience about positive symptom psychosis bc that’s my disease profile. Negative symptom psychosis is still psychosis. I don’t know if anyone in here can speak to that and I mostly associate it with a lack of self care. Deterioration. But the deterioration happens to your mind as well as your body. It’s worth reading about, which is what I’m going to do.

 

[SShore13!]

I just want to thank everyone for sharing their personal stories. I can't begin to put myself in any of your shoes. One question I did want to ask, because I think it's very relevant to this situation. Whether it was PPD, PPP, Anxiety, Depression - what got you out of it? What made you not harm yourself, your children?

IMHO, yes LC was suffering from some underlying mental health condition. Yes, she was cycling through medications to try to find the right treatment. As many of you have described in your own experience. But there was something else there that made her do what no one else on this board that has suffered through similar experiences do. And that's why my heart breaks for the kids, why I'm devastated for the husband. But also why I cannot bring myself to feel much sympathy for LC herself. She did what so many others didn't in similar situations.

 

[iamshadow21]

In case it becomes relevant I want to mention something. There are two different broad categories of psychosis- positive symptom psychosis and negative symptom psychosis. I’ve spoken from experience about positive symptom psychosis bc that’s my disease profile. Negative symptom psychosis is still psychosis. I don’t know if anyone in here can speak to that and I mostly associate it with a lack of self care. Deterioration. But the deterioration happens to your mind as well as your body. It’s worth reading about, which is what I’m going to do.

For folks who like to read, both Hidden Valley Road and This Stranger, My Son talk about negative symptom stuff, I think. Both are books written about families with at least one member with schizophrenia. HVR is relatively recently published. I think TSMS was published in the '70s. It's been a number of years since I read that one.

 

[spicyrock]

I just want to thank everyone for sharing their personal stories. I can't begin to put myself in any of your shoes. One question I did want to ask, because I think it's very relevant to this situation. Whether it was PPD, PPP, Anxiety, Depression - what got you out of it? What made you not harm yourself, your children?

IMHO, yes LC was suffering from some underlying mental health condition. Yes, she was cycling through medications to try to find the right treatment. As many of you have described in your own experience. But there was something else there that made her do what no one else on this board that has suffered through similar experiences do. And that's why my heart breaks for the kids, why I'm devastated for the husband. But also why I cannot bring myself to feel much sympathy for LC herself. She did what so many others didn't in similar situations.

I never had an ounce of inclination to hurt my child- my delusions have usually incorporated an element of needing to protect my child. And not by hurting her. She is safe with me, and she’s a teenager (I wasn’t sick when she was small) so she has good understanding of what is happening to me if I start to spiral.

What keeps me from hurting myself and drives me through treatment is also my child- a need to find a way back to her and back to being able to care for her.

My illness, bipolar, is relatively well understood and treatable. That’s a huge difference between me and LC. I have medication that works well and quickly for psychosis.

Depression is another matter. That can be quite hard to resolve. But I have medication that does a pretty good job at that, too.

I’m lucky. That’s the truth. I’m very, very lucky.

 

[threesevenninefour]

Just my opinion/experience - when I was suffering from PPD/PPA and on the wrong medicine, my mom and husband realized the pattern after a couple horrible years that as I would seem to be doing well, I would have a day that was remarkably normal, wonderful, perfect seeming - and that evening seemed to be when I would just ... snap. More unaliving myself than anyone else, but it is a pattern that's not unheard of

I’m so very sorry that you had to experience that. I hope that you’re doing better these days. *hugs*

I just want to be clear I’m in no way suggesting she didn’t have PPD/PPA. She was clearly suffering from some postpartum mental health issues. Just that (according to the prosecution) she seemed to be improving drastically since her hospitalization. That can make it hard for loved ones/medical professionals to provide adequate care. Hindsight is 20/20. I suspect there was a lot of masking of symptoms going on, but that’s an entirely different topic.

 

[Marie A]

I know I've read in the last week that a risk factor for PPP can be bipolar and maybe schizophrenia? I don't recall precisely, I'm in bed on my phone and don't have the articles I was reading to hand at the minute. These conditions do not have to have been obvious or diagnosed prior to the pregnancy. No idea if the same is true for PPD.

IMHO - all of the following:

Bingo! You are on the right track re- bipolar or schizophrenia for LC. Quite possibly both.

A Review of Postpartum Psychosis

The objective is to provide an overview of the clinical features, prognosis, differential diagnosis, evaluation, and treatment of postpartum psychosis.The authors searched Medline (1966–2005), PsycInfo (1974–2005), Toxnet, and PubMed databases ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This says there is a definite connection- 77-82% PPP / bipolar overlap.
I personally have friends who have been diagnosed with either bipolar or schizophrenia respectively so I have done extensive study on both.

It can be really hard to be empathetic and understanding and especially supportive to those with these baffling, erratic and very serious illnesses until they are better comprehended.

I was called to study when I was told by a schizophrenic friend that her friends always abandon her. At that point she hadn’t been diagnosed but I know that she was seeing things that weren’t there- demons on people’s shoulders and faces in inanimate objects.

I was leaning towards bipolar for LC before hearing yesterday’s revelations but I think schizophrenia is also possible.It’s very heritable and maybe we will learn in the trial if she has a family history or either/ or of both.
They are not mutually exclusive and a segment of the population definitely has both. This tells you there is great comorbidity:

Bipolar disorder, schizoaffective disorder, and schizophrenia overlap: a new comorbidity index - PubMed

A large comorbidity index between schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder was found, as well as a large index between bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder. But, more surprisingly, it was clear that a substantial comorbidity index between bipolar disorder and schizophrenia was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Antidepressants are responsible for setting off bipolar and most importantly I feel strongly that the drugs were the devil that caused LC’s unspeakable actions

Can Antidepressants Cause Problems for Bipolar Patients?

The controversy rages on.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Knox]

I’m so very sorry that you had to experience that. I hope that you’re doing better these days. *hugs*

I just want to be clear I’m in no way suggesting she didn’t have PPD/PPA. She was clearly suffering from some postpartum mental health issues. Just that (according to the prosecution) she seemed to be improving drastically since her hospitalization. That can make it hard for loved ones/medical professionals to provide adequate care. Hindsight is 20/20. I suspect there was a lot of masking of symptoms going on, but that’s an entirely different topic.

I realize there are protections in place related to Lindsay's job as a L&D nurse, she was on medical leave I believe. But I wondered if some of the masking (if any was happening) was to protect her job? I'm also curious if she was communicating with any friends who were also nurses.

Lindsay's husband said something to the effect - she was having one of her best days. Taking Cora to a Dr. appointment, building a snowman with the older two, calling a pharmacy to see if they have children's miralax on the shelf. Why have him pick up the miralax, if she knew she was going to kill the kids? Was this what we have seen described as "a sense of peace" in someone who has made up their mind to end their own life?

Maybe she never planned to kill the kids, but in deciding to take her own life, spiraled?

 

[spicyrock]

IMHO - all of the following:

Bingo! You are on the right track re- bipolar or schizophrenia for LC. Quite possibly both.

A Review of Postpartum Psychosis

The objective is to provide an overview of the clinical features, prognosis, differential diagnosis, evaluation, and treatment of postpartum psychosis.The authors searched Medline (1966–2005), PsycInfo (1974–2005), Toxnet, and PubMed databases ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This says there is a definite connection- 77-82% PPP / bipolar overlap.
I personally have friends who have been diagnosed with either bipolar or schizophrenia respectively so I have done extensive study on both.

It can be really hard to be empathetic and understanding and especially supportive to those with these baffling, erratic and very serious illnesses until they are better comprehended.

I was called to study when I was told by a schizophrenic friend that her friends always abandon her. At that point she hadn’t been diagnosed but I know that she was seeing things that weren’t there- demons on people’s shoulders and faces in inanimate objects.

I was leaning towards bipolar for LC before hearing yesterday’s revelations but I think schizophrenia is also possible.It’s very heritable and maybe we will learn in the trial if she has a family history or either/ or of both.
They are not mutually exclusive and a segment of the population definitely has both. This tells you there is great comorbidity:

Bipolar disorder, schizoaffective disorder, and schizophrenia overlap: a new comorbidity index - PubMed

A large comorbidity index between schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder was found, as well as a large index between bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder. But, more surprisingly, it was clear that a substantial comorbidity index between bipolar disorder and schizophrenia was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Antidepressants are responsible for setting off bipolar and most importantly I feel strongly that the drugs were the devil that caused LC’s unspeakable actions

Can Antidepressants Cause Problems for Bipolar Patients?

The controversy rages on.

www.psychologytoday.com

I read these studies as well. That was the first thing I thought when I saw Prozac - an SSRI can trigger mania and if you have manic symptoms while you are depressed you are in a mixed episode- the very worst hell can come from that. You have the darkness of depression with the manic energy to do something about it. This is the most dangerous state for bipolar patients.

You can have terrible intrusive thoughts screaming through your head.

I don’t think we can internet diagnose her but I have followed the same trail of wondering.

ETA: i should have said, an SSRI can trigger mania if you are bipolar.

Also eta: her prescriptions include lamictal, which is a common mood stabilizer for bipolar treatment. It is sometimes prescribed for depression as well, but that’s significantly less common. It’s one of many standard medications for bipolar. That definitely made me wonder.