MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[Marie A]

I read these studies as well. That was the first thing I thought when I saw Prozac - an SSRI can trigger mania and if you have manic symptoms while you are depressed you are in a mixed episode- the very worst hell can come from that. You have the darkness of depression with the manic energy to do something about it. This is the most dangerous state for bipolar patients.

You can have terrible intrusive thoughts screaming through your head.

I don’t think we can internet diagnose her but I have followed the same trail of wondering.

ETA: i should have said, an SSRI can trigger mania if you are bipolar.

Also eta: her prescriptions include lamictal, which is a common mood stabilizer for bipolar treatment. It is sometimes prescribed for depression as well, but that’s significantly less common. It’s one of many standard medications for bipolar. That definitely made me wonder.

Thanks for posting and providing this insight regarding Prozac, SSRIs & lamictal.



IMHO

Its so very upsetting to hear the details based on what was confirmed yesterday regarding the basement, Lindsay’s paraplegia and everything else.
I’m still reeling from how terrible tragedy is.

I know a young man (@21-22 years old) who moved home with his parents after leaving college and experimenting with psychedelic drugs. He was diagnosed with depression and given antidepressants. In actuality he was paranoid- telling friends the government was out to get him and such. I think his paranoid ideation wasn’t properly picked up on or taken seriously. Definite “psychotic“ behavior. He planned his suicide- ordered a gun from the sporting goods store and then picked it up the next week and went to a hidden creek bed in a neighborhood park and shot himself in the head after telling a friend where he was. His friends and parents raced to the park but it was too late. The night before he shot himself he told his friends “I‘ll see you on the other side” before leaving the group. Nobody picked up on his meaning or intention. It was heartbreaking as he was a much loved, gorgeous, popular young man with everything going for him. A beloved only child of means.
In any case, I always suspected that he wasn’t properly diagnosed and was given the wrong thing- the antidepressants put him over the edge ramping up the psychosis and causing his mania. It made no sense and still doesn’t.

In any case, my young friend and so many others simply have “terrible intrusive thoughts screaming through their heads“ as you have said.

These things are simply inexplicable and I hope that there will be more education on mental illness, less stigma so that there can be more help and better help given to those who suffer.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

For folks who like to read, both Hidden Valley Road and This Stranger, My Son talk about negative symptom stuff, I think. Both are books written about families with at least one member with schizophrenia. HVR is relatively recently published. I think TSMS was published in the '70s. It's been a number of years since I read that one.

Hidden Valley Road is a very good read with multiple accounts of living in a large family with several with schizophrenia.

 

[BrownRice]

While reading local news about this case, there was a mention of a 2008 story of Marcelle Thebault. I vaguely remember it. She had been having depressive thoughts and had been inpatient at McClean (same hospital as LC) and was released. She pulled over one night in the median of a freeway and was having a mental break. Police stopped and then let her go. She had been on her way to pick up her twin sister’s children for a sleepover. Anyway, picks the kids up. Sister says she was completely normal. Marcelle goes back to freeway median, undresses herself and her sister’s children, then walks them onto freeway where they all died.

I found a lot of similarities between these cases. Marcelle was known to be a loving mom and person. She had previously been inpatient at McLean (highly regarded mental health hospital), and was presenting herself to be “normal “ prior to this event (other than hours previous when she had interaction with police).

Reading these horrific stories makes me grateful for my own health, physical and mental. Scary to really think these people could be any of us. Seems like I could go from being “normal “ (non psychotic) one day to having a mental break the next. Regardless of how Lindsay’s trial plays out, her life is done. She is paralyzed physically and will live with this the rest of her life.

 

[spicyrock]

I have been trying to figure out what forensic psychologists do this morning.

One thing that has stuck with me toward the later part of this conversation is what someone pointed out about the difference between the methodology of the killings vs the suicide attempt. And that’s something the prosecution would note as well, I would think. Maybe the defense psychologist is there to show that while the acts may have appeared different, they came from the same abnormal mindset.

Or maybe it’s just that the prosecution is banking on rationality shown through her timing of the events; maybe the psychologist is to refute this with evidence of her distorted perspective during the acts given an absence of psychosis.

This case has really gotten under my skin, at first because I was truly alarmed at how the world is discussing PPD/PPP as though it’s evil. As though there could be no circumstance where your brain can turn on you.

We use Andrea Yates as our benchmark because it’s easy to look at her case and feel she didn’t do anything wrong at all. She’s a definite victim (of mental illness). Most cases aren’t like that though, right? It’s rare to find a situation so black and white.

Depression, regular old MDD, kills almost a million people every year iirc. It doesn’t require psychosis to be deadly. It’s still a serious condition and PPD can be very serious, although I don’t have any first hand knowledge of that. It can definitely heavily distort thinking.

I feel like I might have to look at this from that gray perspective. There might not really be a good clear answer for why she did this.

ETA: yet, I mean. Also edited to remove my hypothetical scenario since it’s too speculative for my comfort level.

 

[WingsOverTX]

While reading local news about this case, there was a mention of a 2008 story of Marcelle Thebault. I vaguely remember it. She had been having depressive thoughts and had been inpatient at McClean (same hospital as LC) and was released. She pulled over one night in the median of a freeway and was having a mental break. Police stopped and then let her go. She had been on her way to pick up her twin sister’s children for a sleepover. Anyway, picks the kids up. Sister says she was completely normal. Marcelle goes back to freeway median, undresses herself and her sister’s children, then walks them onto freeway where they all died.

I found a lot of similarities between these cases. Marcelle was known to be a loving mom and person. She had previously been inpatient at McLean (highly regarded mental health hospital), and was presenting herself to be “normal “ prior to this event (other than hours previous when she had interaction with police).

Reading these horrific stories makes me grateful for my own health, physical and mental. Scary to really think these people could be any of us. Seems like I could go from being “normal “ (non psychotic) one day to having a mental break the next. Regardless of how Lindsay’s trial plays out, her life is done. She is paralyzed physically and will live with this the rest of her life.

RBBM
Respectfully, if you have no history of mental illness then suddenly having psychosis as you describe would be very rare in my unprofessional opinion. There are warning signs.

Psychosis isn’t a condition unto itself. It’s a symptom of an underlying health problem. While it’s most commonly a feature of a mental illness like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or major depression, psychosis can also be triggered by trauma, substance abuse, brain disease or injury, and even extreme sleep deprivation.
7 Warning Signs of a Psychotic Episode: EXIS Recovery Inc.: Substance Abuse and Trauma Treatment Facilities

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

RBBM
Respectfully, if you have no history of mental illness then suddenly having psychosis as you describe would be very rare in my unprofessional opinion. There are warning signs.

Psychosis isn’t a condition unto itself. It’s a symptom of an underlying health problem. While it’s most commonly a feature of a mental illness like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or major depression, psychosis can also be triggered by trauma, substance abuse, brain disease or injury, and even extreme sleep deprivation.
7 Warning Signs of a Psychotic Episode: EXIS Recovery Inc.: Substance Abuse and Trauma Treatment Facilities

JMO

Adding some additional postpartum psychosis triggers, beyond pre-existing mental health conditions and sleep deprivation:

What causes postpartum psychosis?​

Experts don’t know why postpartum psychosis happens but suspect it involves a combination of factors, including:

• History of mental health conditions. About one-third of people with PPP have a previously diagnosed mental health condition. The most common include bipolar disorder (especially bipolar I disorder). Other mental health conditions that may increase the risk include major depressive disorder and schizophrenia spectrum conditions.
• Number of pregnancies. PPP is more common in people who just gave birth to their first child. However, for people with a history of PPP, there’s a 30% to 50% chance that it will happen again after future childbirths.
• Family history of mental health conditions, especially PPP. People with PPP often have family members with a history of PPP or related mental health conditions. Because of that, researchers suspect that this condition may have a genetic link.
• Sleep deprivation. Experts know that not getting enough sleep can trigger mania in people with bipolar disorder. They also suspect that not sleeping can be part of why a person develops PPP.
• Hormone changes. Your body’s chemistry during pregnancy undergoes major changes around the time of childbirth. Levels of some hormones spike upward, while others plummet. Experts suspect certain hormones, especially estrogen and prolactin, might play a role. More research is necessary to confirm this, however.
• Other medical conditions. Psychosis can also happen for medical reasons, many of which are possible during or immediately after giving birth. Some examples of medical causes include autoimmune and inflammatory diseases, electrolyte imbalances, vitamin deficiencies (B1 and B12), thyroid disorders, stroke, etc. Eclampsia and preeclampsia also may be contributing conditions.

Postpartum Psychosis: What It Is, Symptoms & Treatment

Postpartum psychosis is a condition that disrupts a person’s sense of reality after they give birth. This is a mental health emergency that needs immediate care.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Let me ask you this question then -- let's say she was in a psych ward for 25 years and after discharge, she killed someone. Would you still think it wasn't long enough? If so, let's talk about it in the context of another illness. Let's say someone has cancer and after 10 rounds of chemo, the cancer still grows. After 20 rounds, nothing. After surgery and radiation, still growing. At some point, I think we'd all agree that the oncologist needs to tell the patient that there's nothing more left to be done. I don't think any of us would think the oncologist failed the patient? So why can't we accept the same for some mental illnesses? What if she wasn't discharged too soon? What if she was discharged when she well and she rapidly relapsed? That isn't a failure, IMO. Sometimes, even mental illnesses can have a "terminal" prognosis, just like cancer.

I'm not sure that's an apples to apples comparison. But for the sake of discussion, let's go with it. What does palliative care look like for a "terminal" mental health diagnosis? TIA

 

[deadfoot13]

This is something I cant, and dont think I will ever be able to understand.

With all due respect, you should count yourself as very lucky.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I think we have to be careful not to paint the killer as the victim. True, she may well have been suffering from a psychosis, but the only true victims here are the ones whose lives were snuffed out beneath her hands.

She may have an illness but being sick and being a victim are two very different things. MOO

Sick or not, she's been accused of killing the little ones and they didn't have a chance of standing up to her. They were sitting ducks. Can you imagine the horror the older must have felt as they struggled agaisnt their own mother? Their murderer? It's unfathomable to me.

We have to remember and honor them, first and foremost. I'm sorry she developed PPP, but I'm much sorrier for her husband and her little ones.

I couldn't disagree more. MOO, of course. Why must a hierarchy of sympathy exist? Why can't we recognize that they are each victims, recognize their suffering individually, and have empathy for each of them? Why must there be a hierarchy? That seems unduly callous and punitive. If she was psychotic, she is a victim, full stop.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

While reading local news about this case, there was a mention of a 2008 story of Marcelle Thebault. I vaguely remember it. She had been having depressive thoughts and had been inpatient at McClean (same hospital as LC) and was released. She pulled over one night in the median of a freeway and was having a mental break. Police stopped and then let her go. She had been on her way to pick up her twin sister’s children for a sleepover. Anyway, picks the kids up. Sister says she was completely normal. Marcelle goes back to freeway median, undresses herself and her sister’s children, then walks them onto freeway where they all died.

I found a lot of similarities between these cases. Marcelle was known to be a loving mom and person. She had previously been inpatient at McLean (highly regarded mental health hospital), and was presenting herself to be “normal “ prior to this event (other than hours previous when she had interaction with police).

Reading these horrific stories makes me grateful for my own health, physical and mental. Scary to really think these people could be any of us. Seems like I could go from being “normal “ (non psychotic) one day to having a mental break the next. Regardless of how Lindsay’s trial plays out, her life is done. She is paralyzed physically and will live with this the rest of her life.

I'm certain that her paralysis, as daunting as those challenges will be, are nothing compared to what she will face emotionally. There are only victims in this tragic case. Her children's suffering is over. Her husband will never forget the horror and loss, but he'll likely have some happier days ahead, and may even have more children, in time. Her suffering is just beginning.

 

[Cedars]

I have been trying to figure out what forensic psychologists do this morning.

One thing that has stuck with me toward the later part of this conversation is what someone pointed out about the difference between the methodology of the killings vs the suicide attempt. And that’s something the prosecution would note as well, I would think. Maybe the defense psychologist is there to show that while the acts may have appeared different, they came from the same abnormal mindset.

Or maybe it’s just that the prosecution is banking on rationality shown through her timing of the events; maybe the psychologist is to refute this with evidence of her distorted perspective during the acts given an absence of psychosis.

This case has really gotten under my skin, at first because I was truly alarmed at how the world is discussing PPD/PPP as though it’s evil. As though there could be no circumstance where your brain can turn on you.

We use Andrea Yates as our benchmark because it’s easy to look at her case and feel she didn’t do anything wrong at all. She’s a definite victim (of mental illness). Most cases aren’t like that though, right? It’s rare to find a situation so black and white.

Depression, regular old MDD, kills almost a million people every year iirc. It doesn’t require psychosis to be deadly. It’s still a serious condition and PPD can be very serious, although I don’t have any first hand knowledge of that. It can definitely heavily distort thinking.

I feel like I might have to look at this from that gray perspective. There might not really be a good clear answer for why she did this.

ETA: yet, I mean. Also edited to remove my hypothetical scenario since it’s too speculative for my comfort level.

I hope the psychologist is sufficiently professional that he won't just make whatever findings the defense wants him to make...?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Adding some additional postpartum psychosis triggers, beyond pre-existing mental health conditions and sleep deprivation:

What causes postpartum psychosis?​

Experts don’t know why postpartum psychosis happens but suspect it involves a combination of factors, including:

• History of mental health conditions. About one-third of people with PPP have a previously diagnosed mental health condition. The most common include bipolar disorder (especially bipolar I disorder). Other mental health conditions that may increase the risk include major depressive disorder and schizophrenia spectrum conditions.
• Number of pregnancies. PPP is more common in people who just gave birth to their first child. However, for people with a history of PPP, there’s a 30% to 50% chance that it will happen again after future childbirths.
• Family history of mental health conditions, especially PPP. People with PPP often have family members with a history of PPP or related mental health conditions. Because of that, researchers suspect that this condition may have a genetic link.
• Sleep deprivation. Experts know that not getting enough sleep can trigger mania in people with bipolar disorder. They also suspect that not sleeping can be part of why a person develops PPP.
• Hormone changes. Your body’s chemistry during pregnancy undergoes major changes around the time of childbirth. Levels of some hormones spike upward, while others plummet. Experts suspect certain hormones, especially estrogen and prolactin, might play a role. More research is necessary to confirm this, however.
• Other medical conditions. Psychosis can also happen for medical reasons, many of which are possible during or immediately after giving birth. Some examples of medical causes include autoimmune and inflammatory diseases, electrolyte imbalances, vitamin deficiencies (B1 and B12), thyroid disorders, stroke, etc. Eclampsia and preeclampsia also may be contributing conditions.

Postpartum Psychosis: What It Is, Symptoms & Treatment

Postpartum psychosis is a condition that disrupts a person’s sense of reality after they give birth. This is a mental health emergency that needs immediate care.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Great info. Thank you, @steeltowngirl

 

[Cedars]

I couldn't disagree more. MOO, of course. Why must a hierarchy of sympathy exist? Why can't we recognize that they are each victims, recognize their suffering individually, and have empathy for each of them? Why must there be a hierarchy? That seems unduly callous and punitive. If she was psychotic, she is a victim, full stop.

I think that's the natural response and there's no hierarchy of sympathy.

But the legal system, justice system isn't about sympathy, it's about rights, which is, IMO, a theoretical concept. I think it's only recently that children's rights became so important (when the whole issue of child abuse came to the fore in the 1980s).

So, for example, the state will now intervene to take children away from parents who the state believes are or may cause them harm. Judges have to decide custody based on 'the best interests of the child' ... etc.

In some ways, the legal system has to view the rights of the child as independent of who their birth parents happen to be.

So I believe, legally, it doesn't matter to the prosecution whether the murdered victims were her children, or someone else's children.

Just like, it doesn't matter to the law whether a man kills his wife, or a stranger. If anything, it is now seen as a more horrific crime, because there was a duty of care, and a relationship of trust that makes familicide easier. The law bears down on those cases even harder, IMO, standing up for the rights of those who couldn't protect themselves.

I think often these two perspectives clash, it's a challenge to find the line between the natural emotional response, and the legal one. I'm sure the prosecution knows that.

But we have a public adversarial legal system, rather than, say, a council of elders who gather privately to reach consensus. So the prosecution and the defensive initially take positions on the extremes on either side. Eventually, however, a consensus is reached that the public can live with, either through a deal, or a trial.

JMO

 

[spicyrock]

I hope the psychologist is sufficiently professional that he won't just make whatever findings the defense wants him to make...?

I think he will have a justifiable perspective on her frame of mind. But I don’t think he will be able to determine that she was psychotic. I just don’t know. It’s distressing. I think it’s likely she timed her suicide in addition to the rest but ran out of time; she spoke with her husband at some point during this as well and that conversation may come into play. I think the defense is going to have trouble.

But I also don’t discount the degree to which depression truly can warp your thinking and I am still open to what defense they present.

 

[Cedars]

I think he will have a justifiable perspective on her frame of mind. But I don’t think he will be able to determine that she was psychotic. I just don’t know. It’s distressing. I think it’s likely she timed her suicide in addition to the rest but ran out of time; she spoke with her husband at some point during this as well and that conversation may come into play. I think the defense is going to have trouble.

But I also don’t discount the degree to which depression truly can warp your thinking and I am still open to what defense they present.

I'm not convinced this will go to a full trial, at this early stage, there could be a deal.

JMO

Edited to add: I believe there are many cases where the prosecution accepts a determination that the perp was psychotic at the time, but they have their own psychologists who determine that.

 

[Cloudydiamond]

Wait a minute… something pretty obvious just dawned on me.

LC describes herself on her FB page as a “Labor & Delivery RN at Massachusetts General Hospital.” So, she’s an RN.

RNs have to take and pass a pretty advanced Anatomy & Physiology course - in CA that course is more rigorous and detailed than the Anat&Physio classes required for EMTs, but I’m not sure if that’s the case nationally.

Regardless, any person with medical training knows how to feel for a pulse in the radial or carotid artery. They know exactly where those critical vessels are located. They know about blood vessel collapse, clotting, etc.

According to the details from the arraignment, LC appeared to understand that the ligatures needed to remain tight around the little necks of her children for several minutes beyond the point of loss of consciousness, to ensure they would die and not spontaneously revive. Whether she was acting under a delusion of psychosis or not, she didn’t forget her medical training as she killed her children.

As an RN, LC had the knowledge to very easily complete her act of suicide, fairly quickly and without jumping out a window. I don’t want to go into details in a public forum, but for a trained professional with knowledge of anatomy, IMO it would be difficult to botch a genuine suicide attempt.

So, how can she or anyone possibly explain her huge shift in competence and ability between killing her children and killing herself? Being psychotic throughout wouldn’t explain it, nor would being depressed or suicidal.

The only way this makes sense to me is that she wanted to kill her children, but she only wanted to appear like she wanted to kill herself.

Lindsay Clancy Facebook

IMO, I believe she really wanted to die. I don't believe the prosecution when they said she spent all that time choking them one by one. I think she probably double knotted the elastic exercise bands around their necks. I think it was done quickly with each one. Tie the bands, on to the next, leaving them there while she tried a couple ways to kill herself.

 

[SpideySense]

I couldn't disagree more. MOO, of course. Why must a hierarchy of sympathy exist? Why can't we recognize that they are each victims, recognize their suffering individually, and have empathy for each of them? Why must there be a hierarchy? That seems unduly callous and punitive. If she was psychotic, she is a victim, full stop.

Context is everything, and the post you’re responding to was in turn responding to someone calling criticism of LC victim blaming.

So, yes, in the children vs. mother relationship in this case, the children are clearly “the victims” and the mother is clearly “the perpetrator.” Therefore, critiques of LC should not be categorized as victim blaming. That’s how I read the original comment you quote.

In other contexts, LC can be viewed as a victim, like you say. A victim of her mental health, a victim of her guilt. But she’s not the victim of this crime.

 

[spicyrock]

Timeline of Duxbury killings: Prosecutor lays out case against Lindsay Clancy

Plymouth officials presented investigators' timeline of events at Lindsay Clancy's arraignment on Tuesday.

www.masslive.com

Timeline. It notes that Patrick said her wounds were no longer bleeding when he found her; I wonder if that means they weren’t as deep as she had wanted them to be. I don’t know how long it takes wounds to stop bleeding. I think she intended to die; I wonder why she couldn’t do it? Is it just that thing where you can’t make the psychological jump to end your life? Maybe throwing herself out the window was the thing that was her last chance?

 

[Cedars]

Timeline of Duxbury killings: Prosecutor lays out case against Lindsay Clancy

Plymouth officials presented investigators' timeline of events at Lindsay Clancy's arraignment on Tuesday.

www.masslive.com

Timeline. It notes that Patrick said her wounds were no longer bleeding when he found her; I wonder if that means they weren’t as deep as she had wanted them to be. I don’t know how long it takes wounds to stop bleeding. I think she intended to die; I wonder why she couldn’t do it? Is it just that thing where you can’t make the psychological jump to end your life? Maybe throwing herself out the window was the thing that was her last chance?

Psychologist say there's a biological survival instinct in all of us. It usually requires pondering on the determination to do it for a long time, and figuring out an appropriate technique to over-ride that in ourselves. Many initial attempts fail.

Overcoming that instinct in others isn't easy, either.

JMO

 

[SpideySense]

I wonder why she couldn’t do it? Is it just that thing where you can’t make the psychological jump to end your life?

This, for me, is the crux of the case.

We here on WS have a tremendous reservoir of empathy. We’ll easily set aside our own beliefs and convictions and generously step into the mental shoes of someone suffering from mental illness. Our own experiences with mental illness make that leap even easier, and make LC even more relatable.

But sometimes we forget to ask “Would I have ever done that?” Or we forget to give our answer to that question any validity, because “we’re not her” or “we never had psychosis, thank god” or “we can’t judge.”

For me, it’s okay to judge someone’s actions based on what I would have done in a situation. If someone snaps in my face to get my attention, I think “Wow, I would never have done that to someone. That was rude.” Full stop. If I heard from 20 different people afterwards, “No, you misunderstand, that person is great! They give to charity, they’re a wonderful parent, they’re the nicest most respectful person you could imagine!” - none of it would change my opinion that their snapping in my face was nevertheless rude. Then, the ball is in the person’s court to explain or demonstrate to me that they are not in fact rude. And my opinion of them may change over time based on what else is revealed. But I don’t think “Wow, I would never have done that to someone. But maybe they have a really good reason for snapping in people’s faces to get their attention, so I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.”

It seems like people are willing to do the latter for LC.

Spicyrock’s questions above seem to get to the crux of the case because the jury is going to have to ask themselves “How can a mother find it easier to kill her children than to kill herself?” If it comes down to psychological instinct of self-preservation, where does that instinct go in the hundreds, thousands, millions of times over the centuries where a mother sacrifices her life for her child?

I have suffered from PPA, I have had dark thoughts about my children and about myself as a mother, but wow, I would have never been able to end my children’s lives or watch them die. Based on the facts as I understand them, she is a child murderer. And I have yet to hear any coherent explanation from LC, her family, or her attorney that would explain or demonstrate to me she is not.

By the end of her trial, I may be convinced otherwise. But the ball is in her court.