MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 June 2000

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by Doyle, Aug 12, 2003.

  1. Crazyjster

    Crazyjster Active Member

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    That has always been my thought...or someone simply asked for a band-aid not even faking an injury per se...Stranger or someone known...as for the whistle, one would not necessarily be wearing a whistle until you were actually guarding (well I am speaking for myself way back when but then again I think about how that whistle this could have changed things dramatically in this case).
     
  2. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    I agree. How can anyone know the precise sequence of how Molly Bish sets up her lifeguard stuff? Maybe she simply waits to put on her whistle when she starts lifeguarding? But then there is the bag left on the bench, and I always like to have my personal stuff next to me if other people are going to be there.

    In this case, there is no evidence that it is not the person in the white car who committed this crime. It is just that from all the t.v. shows I have seen on the case I got the impression that if someone parks their car in St. Paul's Cemetery next to Commins Pond that person would not be able to see their car from the beach. So in order to beeline back to their car from the beach they would probably have to be very confident and know the area quite well.

    Then there is the white car. On June 26, 2000 the white car was spotted in the Commins Pond parking lot by Maggie Bish, Molly's mother. Then the next day numerous other people see the car either in the cemetery or at the car wash or around town or in the previous days leading up to the kidnapping. Yet the kidnapping happened on June 27, 2000, so the kidnapper had 24 hours to decide that it would be best to use his own white car. A lot of bank robbery suspects are caught because of their car. So the criminal must have just been that confident in the seclusion of St. Paul's Cemetery or he just did not care.

    I guess that is why this case is such a mystery. You cannot really come to solid conclusions based on when a person puts on a whistle or the motivation for a kidnapper who plans a kidnapping deciding to use his own car. And since the crime took place at what is a public place in the middle of the day the suspect could be virtually anyone who has any type of association with Commins Pond or the surrounding area. So this case leaves you with a lot of unanswered questions.
     
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  3. Crazyjster

    Crazyjster Active Member

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    Just keep in mind...that the media does not always have ALL or accurate information all of the time either...so it is tough to make a reconstruction based solely on what has been presented through television and the media.
     
  4. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    I could literally write an entire story about a missing whistle and an open first aid kit even though I know it does not mean anything. Maybe the first aid kit was open because the kidnapper/murderer had their hands full? Maybe Molly Bish just left her first aid kit open after she gave this person a band-aid or some other item?

    I have to admit that I would have tried to go to other places to ask a lifeguard for a band-aid because I would want to see if they close the kit. I know none of it means anything.
     
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  5. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    2014

    2018
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  6. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    In case anyone is interested, someone who lives on Commins Pond Road did a Molly Bish Digitour youtube video of Commins Pond Road, the beach, and cemetery where the white car was supposedly parked. It helps provide some perspective to the layout of the area where Molly Bish disappeared on June 27, 2000.

    Unfortunately a few suspects in the Molly Bish case have driven a white car. I cannot think of anything to critique in this case. Her mother did the right thing by reporting the white car and the man inside. A sketch was made. The police did the right thing by investigating numerous white cars in the area and circulating the sketch. The part that was always strange about the white car was the sequence in which it was seen. According to 48 hours and the Dark Minds program, it makes it seem like the white car was spotted in the cemetery in the days leading up to the disappearance of Molly Bish. So according to this sequence the person who took Molly Bish was at the cemetery surveilling the layout to the beach before they went to the parking lot on June 26, 2000, where this person was observed my Molly's mother. But if the first time the kidnapper saw Molly Bish was in the parking lot on June 26, 2000(because the kidnapper is a stranger), doesn't that seem strange if they already know the layout of the beach to the cemetery(because their car was spotted at the cemetery before June 26, 2000)?
     
  7. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I think I have figured out the white car theory and how it works. On June 26, 2000, Maggie Bish drops off Molly Bish for her lifeguarding job. The kidnapper/murderer already has extensive knowledge that St. Paul's Cemetery connects to Commins Pond Beach even though he cannot see it. So the kidnapper decides at that moment on June 26, 2000 that he is going to kidnap the Commins Pond lifeguard the next day.

    Then on June 27, 2000, he puts his plan into motion by parking his car at St. Paul's Cemetery and walking down to the beach to kidnap Molly Bish. When he saw her the previous day on June 26, 2000, sitting in his car in the parking lot he simply assumed she was the lifeguard because maybe her swimsuit said lifeguard or because of the first aid kit. This is how he determines she had a schedule and would be back around the same time the next day.

    Any other white cars seen before June 27, 2000 are simply other white cars that have nothing to do with the case.
     
  8. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    Other than DNA I do not know how this case will ever be solved.

    Even if everything was done consecutively, kidnapping, murder, and body placement, I think all of that would take at least an hour. Molly Bish may have been put in the trunk of the white car so as not to be seen if she was kidnapped by someone she knew. So the one thing I think for sure is that whoever murdered Molly Bish will not have an alibi for 10 - 11 am on June 27, 2000.

    And by alibi I mean a planned period of time especially if this was a planned crime. Using a movie analogy(which I know is not good), but the same type of questioning as the detectives at the end of the movie The Taking of Pelham 123 from 1974.
     
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  9. jaejae

    jaejae Well-Known Member

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    This time it is not Mystery Monday, Freaky Friday or Sinister Sunday but Killer Babes. I will give this case a bump with a You Tube video:

     
  10. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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    Molly Bish
    [​IMG]


    It was highly uncharacteristic for Molly to disappear. She loved the summertime—and she loved swimming. That’s why she didn’t mind offering up her Saturdays to train for her summer job at Comins Pond. She had just finished her junior year in high school, and she was excited about what the future would hold.

    Molly’s boss, Ed Fetr, arrived at the pond as quickly as he could once he heard that his lifeguard was gone. He knew immediately that he had to call the police and Molly’s family. The police assumed she had ditched work to hang out with friends, but everyone who’d ever met Molly knew that she would never do something like that.

    “She took her work very seriously,” said Molly’s sister, Heather. “There’s not a doubt in my mind that she would have done anything to jeopardize that.” Molly’s mother agreed, saying, “She would never just leave her job. We knew it.”


    Once the policed realized that Molly was likely not playing hooky, they began to fear that she had drowned. Again, Molly’s family disagreed. Molly hated the slimy feel of the bottom of the lake and never went in without her sandals, which had been found on the shore.

    Before long, the state police were called in to help solve the disappearance. There weren’t a lot of clues besides the open first aid kit. Had someone feigned injury to catch Molly off-guard? Whatever happened, it started the biggest hunt for a missing person the New England state had ever seen.

    While the police began their search for Molly, Magi revealed her own fears about what had happened to her daughter. She said a strange man with a mustache had been lurking around the pond’s parking lot the day before and she suspected the worst.


    Magi took her fears to the police, who weren’t surprised. You see, Magi wasn’t the first person to mention this stranger to them. Several other witnesses had reported that the man, who had been driving a white sedan, made them uneasy...

    LINK:

    http://boredomtherapy.com/mysterious-case-of-molly-bish/
     
  11. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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  12. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    The other day I watched someone smoke a cigarette and it did not seem to take that long to finish it. Something I wondered about this case was after the man in the white car made the decision that he wanted to kidnap the lifeguard, did he actually stick around in the Commins Pond parking lot on June 26, 2000, to have another cigarette?

    So Molly Bish was not just potentially kidnapped by a white car, but by a smoker's white car. And you can usually tell a smoker's car because the smell seems to coat everything inside the vehicle. I know I am being pedantic about the case again, but that is all I can think of.
     
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  13. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Judging by the sketch of the poi, he smokes with his left hand and appears to have dirt under his fingernails. fwiw, imo, speculation.
     
  14. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    I have not written a profile on the Molly Bish case. I am not a profiler. Here is my amateur profile(my opinion) of the Molly Bish case. It is based on hindsight over the last 19 years.

    I would describe Molly Bish's kidnapper/killer as emotionless. I also would describe her killer as patient and not impulsive. The fact that Molly Bish had her stuff set up on the beach and that the kidnapper used a potential ruse all takes time. Either that or he was late to his own kidnapping after making the decision to kidnap the day before. The stuff being set up means a longer period of time for something to go wrong or for a potential witness to appear. And that is almost what happened with the mothers arriving that day for swim lessons.

    But Molly Bish's killer is emotionless because I think her body was buried on Whiskey Hill. I just find it hard to believe her body was above ground for such a long time and gravity usually causes things to go downhill. Seeing as how there looks to be only one main road between Warren and Ware, MA one has to examine the possibility that this person travels Ware Road between the two towns frequently. So to pass by a body location for 3 years makes me think this person does not care one way or the other if she was ever found. She might still be a missing person today had it not been for the hunter who relayed the information to the former detective that led to police finding her remains.

    I think the killer lives within a 5 mile radius of Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA. This is not much different from police who have always thought her killer to be someone from the local area. About the only thing I can think of in terms of potential investigation is to maybe look at other unsolved missing person's cases where the there appears to be foul play but the person has never been found.

    And nobody in a white car has ever come forward to say they were not involved in the disappearance and murder of Molly Bish. A case like this is one of the toughest to solve.
     
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  15. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    When you look at the crime scene area where Molly Bish's remains were recovered in June 2003, it is way up on a hill. The episode Dark Minds episode Blond Blue Eyed and Gone shows this scene. So the placement of the body looks like it was planned or else why walk that far up the hill?

    About the only thing I wonder about this case is how police determined alibis? I think an alibi in this case should be having anyone considered a suspect write down everything they did on June 27, 2000 from 10 am until they went to sleep. Who's alibi seems to have the most solitude that cannot be corroborated by others? And that does not solve anything. It just helps narrow down known suspects. It does nothing for unknown suspects. In terms of creative ideas to solve a case I cannot think of anything else. How would you solve this case if you were a detective back in June 2000 or June 2003?

    For the most part people did everything right in this case. I would have reported the same thing Molly Bish's mother did if the same thing about the guy in the white car happened to me on June 26, 2000. As the police I would have seriously looked at the white car theory and followed up on any sightings or theories regarding suspects that drive a white car.

    Sometimes it is just hard to solve a case with no witnesses(except the white car), no body(until June 2003), and no physical evidence(because of so much time passing probably). Maybe there is some DNA evidence to test? If nothing else, this case at least put the emphasis on making sure to get out information right away concerning missing persons. That is why this case is kind of sad. I doubt anyone thought at the beginning that this case would still be unsolved 19 years later.
     
  16. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    im more interested right now whom was there on the Monday 26 2000. Everyone from workers to visitors that day. Since the police dogs followed her scent to the top of hill by cemetery i will say the animal was parked there and left there with her. But i think perhaps we have been putting our hopes on that white vehicle seen on Monday. That person got busted by the mom. For him to come back the next day and kidnap her, he would have just guessed she would be there, but how would he know she started working there the day before on Monday to come back on Tuesday to take her........ill post more later, listening to videos here and on YouTube. ADD ON... I think this was done by someone that knew that Monday she would be working there, and came back on Tuesday, her *second day*(or 8th day) of working to take her. I think they were there on Monday and learned she had a job there. If they knew she was working there before that Monday the 26 they would have taken her on Monday. But they didn't find out until Monday 26th she was working there, so they came back on Tuesday 27 to take her.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  17. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    There is only one aspect of your post that I do not agree with. If the kidnapper knew Molly Bish worked at the pond before he came to the parking lot, why expose himself and his car to her mother?

    I agree it would be interesting to know what a typical day like June 26, 2000 would be like at Commins Pond in Warren, MA? How busy is this beach say between 10-11 am in the morning?
    I think you bring up a good point about timing. The killer in this case got extremely lucky with timing because of the swimming class that day. Here's why. If he knows or assumes that Molly Bish starts her shift at around 10 am, what is the harm in simply waiting until 10:30 am to kidnap Molly Bish? Why not make absolutely sure her mother is gone?

    And this gets back to how busy is Commins Pond in Warren, MA between 10-11 am on a typical Tuesday?
     
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  18. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    That is if you believe that the guy in the white car is the one that took her. He could have been setting there waiting to make a dope deal or anything.
    yes. when they parked next to the guy in the car. I am almost certain at that time he did not know she worked there. And he was already there when they pulled up and parked next to him. May have figured that out she worked there while setting there and watching them. But to come back the next day and take her after being seen so closely by the mother is one reason why i don't think the guy in the white car she seen that morning is the one that took her. Whom ever came back park up the hill by the cemetery and walk down and got her at some point and took her back to the cars, i base that on the fact the dogs traced her scent up to there then lost it.
     
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  19. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    The following is just MOO and speculations assumptions based on nothing else then what i have read or watched here on YouTube etc.
    In other cases i have read about, the killer would dump a body or pick a killing spot in the opposite direction to where the killer lives. So if and or when the victim is found and there are alot of LEOS in the area, they will be farther away in opposite direction whatever to where the killer lives......But this killer was different in this aspect. For whatever reason, and it could have been it was daylight and not nighttime which is more risky to travel with a kidnapped person during daylight for obvious reasons. But this killer drove took her/left her in an area that would be on his way home. Perhaps because it was daylight, he felt better more confident traveling towards home then going in a opposite direction. Where her clothing and remains were found i would guess the killer at the time lived right around that area. Probably no more then 5 too 10 miles a relative short distance regardless where she was found. A killer that knew the area where she worked the town and so forth. But lived outside the general area. Around 5 or ten miles outside there and where she was found, so perhaps 10 20 miles from her job to her place of foundment.

    As far as the white car with the guy on the day before. I wondered myself why that person never came forward to say hey that was me, i was there that day to just let it be known it was him. But he never did as far as i know, WHY? Could be any reason from not wanted to get involved or perhaps was the killer or perhaps it was an out of town car or had a hatred for LEOS. I don't recall anyone mentioning the plates. It could have been a rental car just passing through or whatever. But i still don't think that was the killer.

    ADD ON...ill go with a 50 mile radius from where she was found. To give the killer an hour or so to drop the body and go back to where he was staying. Plus at the time, this area was more rural and open spaced out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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  20. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

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    Until we know how the crime took place and the sequencing of events it will always be very hard to come to any solid theories in this case. This case really is a toss-up. Mr. Bish thought that the white car was parked by the car wash on the day of the kidnapping and that is how the killer was so confident that Maggie Bish had left Molly off that day. And that makes a lot of sense since Commins Pond Road is one way in and one way out.

    The books I have read concerning geographic profiling suggest that kidnappers/killers tend to feel a link to their home. Home is central to how they think, especially in planned abductions. Again, though, how do we know this was a planned abduction? Maybe it was a fisherman who was on the beach that day or the sand truck driver or a cemetery worker who saw her or a person in a white car who had seen her the day before?

    The only thing we know with any certainty is that the kidnapper/killer must have thought Molly Bish was alone. And we also know that Molly Bish's remains were found on Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA. When I have seen pictures of the site and how far up the hill her bathing suit was found it made me wonder why anyone would walk that far up the hill and just drop a body and leave? And because of gravity the bathing suit and bones may have been even farther up the hill. So I think she was probably buried on the hillside. Erosion and animals may have brought her remains to the surface.

    So who murdered Molly Bish? Was it a sand truck driver who saw her and decided to take her? Was it a cemetery worker who may have also planned her burial on Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA? Was it a fisherman who may have seen her working there over the previous week? Was it someone in her lifeguarding class who may have had some type of infatuation with her? Was it her work supervisor who came up with the perfect alibi to fool the police? (Supposedly he was nearby painting a fence with a man named Mr. Tatro). Or was it some type of criminal stranger in a white car who simply got lucky by coming back the next day and kidnapping Molly Bish before the mothers showed up for the swimming class at the pond?

    I don't know.
     
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