MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #7

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I didn't see it as AJ "dancing around with stupid connotations." I saw it as more of him disproving Buchenik's statements the day before about not having a lead investigator and that they (the troopers) investigate as a team. AJ was implying (albeit underhandedly) that Proctor was the one who ultimately (mis)handled the investigation, including the actual evidence. Proctor's name is literally everywhere, and Buchenik can't testify to anything with Proctor's name attached to it.

Even if Proctor were on the up and up (excluding the Fed investigation for argument's sake), his handling of evidence and/or interviews and lack of reporting is a gross injustice to the defendant, whether or not he is biased against her.

I look at it like this: is Proctor's handling of evidence what I would want to see happen if my loved one was killed? I would want justice for my loved one, but I'd want the evidence (and collection of) to leave absolutely no doubt in my mind that the accused was, in fact, guilty.

In this case, I have so much doubt...I personally need to hear Proctor explain his process.
But you kinda get to my point in your post.

Buchenik is NOT Proctor.

Buchenik can only answer for himself.
He was there.

At the end of the day the defence spent all that valuable time calling a super valuable witness someone elses name and obsessionally referring to someone else actions.
Achieved absolutely zero toward helping his client.

Proctor will be called witness.
NO action Jackson can perform his best circus tricks then.
 
<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

More fun and games in the sallyport.

Day 20, Yuri Bukhenik identifies himself and Michael Proctor



Day 21 on cross, Bukhenik denies he identified himself and Michael Proctor



What could explain his testimony literally changing from day to day?
 
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This prosecution case is almost entirely dependent on hoping the jury dismiss this "cover-up" defense entirely on the premise that it is too elaborate and involves far too many people for it to be taken seriously.

If there were only a few of these tricky bad facts for the defense to exploit then the CW would be onto a winner. But there are so many (butt-dials, hos long, inverted video to name but a few) that quantity is having a quality all of its' own for KR's defense.

The case against Karen Read is barely being held together, and they haven't even cleared the first hurdle on their route to conviction yet, which is proving that John O'Keefe most likely died as a result of being hit by Karen Read's car.

And remember, KR's defence doesn't actually have to prove the cover up to get her acquitted!

all JMO (apart from that last sentence/paragraph. Which is fact)
 
But you kinda get to my point in your post.

Buchenik is NOT Proctor.

Buchenik can only answer for himself.
He was there.

At the end of the day the defence spent all that valuable time calling a super valuable witness someone elses name and obsessionally referring to someone else actions.
Achieved absolutely zero toward helping his client.

Proctor will be called witness.
NO action Jackson can perform his best circus tricks then.
Though we see a similar point from different perspectives, you are correct that Buchenik is not Proctor. However, evidence was entered under Buchenik's name that he, himself, did not collect/bag. Yet somehow, his name appears on the evidence bag and not in his handwriting.

The whole issue of calling Buchenik "Proctor" lasted about the same length of time as Lally asking, "What, if anything..." The prosecution had roughly six hours with Buchenik, the defense had roughly an hour and a half to leave an impression with the jury for their long weekend.

Sure, the defense will continue with a cross on Monday, but I didn't perceive the "Proctor" name issue as a great waste of time compared to the CW's dragged-out presentation of evidence or the constant need for Lally to be reminded to speak up, and his repeating what was said.

Other issues are more representative of wasted time in the courtroom, including the countless sidebars.

I understand you are not a fan of Jackson (my perception of your "NO action Jackson" comment), but he is doing what he's paid handsomely to do—defend his client. And that defense requires him to help the jury see what the prosecution isn't necessarily showing. It's kind of like asking to see the Carfax report at a used car dealership.
 
I feel like in other circumstances the defense could make a motion to dismiss (? Not sure if that’s the right term) and have it granted. After the state rests, I mean. We haven’t seen all the witnesses but I’m not expecting that the remaining witnesses will offer anything that strongly bolsters the CW case.

This trial is so odd - I would expect MSP and the ME on the stand very early on. The jury was overloaded with all these people in the house first, instead, which I think was a bad move for them. I don’t know what happened but I can’t believe some would want and expect a guilty verdict based on what the trial has offered to this point. I have no doubt the defense’s case will be much stronger (and to the point, keeping jurors’ attention). If KR can be convicted based on what the CW has (and hasn’t!) offered, we are all screwed. It really could happen to anyone. Police have procedures for a reason—and imo these procedures were purposely neglected in this case.
 
Tell me why Proctor is the mastermind of framing Karen and how he convinced so many people to lie including EMS? What was in it for him? If Colin Albert 'pulverized' O'Keefe then why is Proctor going to great lengths to cover up a murder? Planting evidence, getting everyone in on the big lie? Why protect Colin Albert?
ETA: Colin has a small window of time to beat the snot out of John to the point of death. The people in the house during that small window of time all decide to collude on how they are going to cover it up. 'Hey guys Karen dropped John off so lets say that he never came into the house so she must have hit him! Yeah yeah that's the story!'. So now to go with that version of events they need to get John's body out on the front lawn over by the fire hydrant/flag pole without anyone else seeing them. Again with only a small window of time to do so.
How many people would it take to carry a dead person through the snow? Now comes the planting of the evidence...to make the "Karen hit John" story fly they need evidence to be planted. They need access to Karen's car and need to collect tail light pieces and add some damage to the area. It's almost like Karen was in on the story because when she returned she went straight to where John was laying.


Karen had this evidence way back but chose not to mention it until she dropped it when talking to Bukhenik? If you were being framed for the murder of your loved one wouldn't you be getting that information to the authorities asap? Wouldn't you want justice? Wouldn't you go to your loved one's family and at the very least provide the evidence to them? I don't want to hear the excuse that Karen had nobody to tell because everyone was in on the conspiracy. This was 2022 and she already had a high profile legal team as well as other avenues. To me it is just smoke and mirrors.
 
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It's kind of like asking to see the Carfax report at a used car dealership.
RSBM
It's kind of like asking to see evidence!

IMO Logic and emotion are at odds for people watching this trial.

For some, emotions are enough for them to make a judgement, and that is frightening. Logic and evidence will not change their minds at this point, clearly.

I think it's difficult for some people to admit everyone in LE is not perfect. It is a scary concept, but it is reality.
 
This trial is so odd - I would expect MSP and the ME on the stand very early on. The jury was overloaded with all these people in the house first, instead, which I think was a bad move for them. I don’t know what happened but I can’t believe some would want and expect a guilty verdict based on what the trial has offered to this point. I have no doubt the defense’s case will be much stronger (and to the point, keeping jurors’ attention). If KR can be convicted based on what the CW has (and hasn’t!) offered, we are all screwed. It really could happen to anyone. Police have procedures for a reason—and imo these procedures were purposely neglected in this case.

I understand Lally's problem with if, when, and how to deal with Proctor (a very bad cop) but the ME thing is puzzling. 50 plus witnesses in and the jury knows very little about what happened to John's body, never mind how it happened.

But I'm starting to wonder if they are even going to put on a very necessary accident reconstructionist to explain how those injuries could have happened in any scenario involving Karen Read. I suppose it's possible the CW figures it will let the individual jurors come up with their own scenarios. An expert not only would have to have explain how all of those injuries happened simultaneously (small deep back-of-the-head wound with associated skull fractures, multiple arm lacerations with corresponding puncture wounds to clothing, bruising to both fists) from a car backing up, they'd also have to explain basic things like how he landed where he did and how he managed to escape other injury below his head while busting up a taillight into 45 pieces. And why her vehicle had zero body damage, despite the claim that she sent him flying 12 feet sideways.

Of course, such an expert would be in a very tough spot because the Michael Proctor lead investigation resulted in zoomed in photos with no context and a total lack of any measurements. How do you come up with a viable - and believable - narrative if you don't have basic scene details? If the CW puts on a half-assed story using an expert who can't really answer many, if any, questions, Read's biomechanical experts will mop the floor with them.

But letting the individual jurors try to come up with their own scenarios is just as bad. I recall that on the site visit one of the jurors looked under Read's vehicle. Presumably he saw no teeth, claws, or machinery that could have ripped up O'Keefe's sweatshirt. The jurors have had enough of their lives wasted listening to Lally's droning about nothing, and I doubt they have any inclination to do the Commonwealth's job for them.
 
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Tell me why Proctor is the mastermind of framing Karen and how he convinced so many people to lie including EMS?
I don't think you need to believe in a wide-ranging conspiracy. But eyewitness testimony is fraught with errors. We can see how Jen McCabe's testimony has morphed over time about what Karen said at the scene. It wasn't until last summer that Jen claimed Karen said "I hit her". She doesn't have to be lying, but that doesn't mean she's correct.

What was in it for him?
As I said previously, cops have been known to plant evidence to make a weak case stronger. Especially considering that this was the death of a fellow police officer, I can see Proctor thinking that if they could find glass on her bumper and taillights shards at the scene, then this would be an open and shut case.

If you don't believe that Proctor did anything wrong, then please explain the glass on Karen's bumper that I posted about earlier.

If Colin Albert 'pulverized' O'Keefe then why is Proctor going to great lengths to cover up a murder? Planting evidence, getting everyone in on the big lie? Why protect Colin Albert? Karen had this evidence way back but chose not to mention it until she dropped it when talking to Bukhenik? If you were being framed for the murder of your loved one wouldn't you be getting that information to the authorities asap? Wouldn't you want justice? Wouldn't you go to your loved one's family and at the very least provide the evidence to them? I don't want to hear the excuse that Karen had nobody to tell because everyone was in on the conspiracy. This was 2022 and she already had a high profile legal team as well as other avenues. To me it is just smoke and mirrors.
I believe she did, through David Yannetti. He provided exculpatory evidence to the DA, but they didn't investigate it. That's why she responded to Bukhenik the way she did, about them "all being in on the joke".
 
Proctor is coming next week.

Buchenik was there. He is a very important witness.

Crazy games being played with super serious stuff.
The circus rolls on!
THE only people who have made a circus and mockery of this trial is everyone BUT the family and the defense.
To state otherwise, is wishful thinking.

And every single one of those people should be ashamed.
 
Tell me why Proctor is the mastermind of framing Karen and how he convinced so many people to lie including EMS? What was in it for him? If Colin Albert 'pulverized' O'Keefe then why is Proctor going to great lengths to cover up a murder? Planting evidence, getting everyone in on the big lie? Why protect Colin Albert?
ETA: Colin has a small window of time to beat the snot out of John to the point of death. The people in the house during that small window of time all decide to collude on how they are going to cover it up. 'Hey guys Karen dropped John off so lets say that he never came into the house so she must have hit him! Yeah yeah that's the story!'. So now to go with that version of events they need to get John's body out on the front lawn over by the fire hydrant/flag pole without anyone else seeing them. Again with only a small window of time to do so.
How many people would it take to carry a dead person through the snow? Now comes the planting of the evidence...to make the "Karen hit John" story fly they need evidence to be planted. They need access to Karen's car and need to collect tail light pieces and add some damage to the area. It's almost like Karen was in on the story because when she returned she went straight to where John was laying.


Karen had this evidence way back but chose not to mention it until she dropped it when talking to Bukhenik? If you were being framed for the murder of your loved one wouldn't you be getting that information to the authorities asap? Wouldn't you want justice? Wouldn't you go to your loved one's family and at the very least provide the evidence to them? I don't want to hear the excuse that Karen had nobody to tell because everyone was in on the conspiracy. This was 2022 and she already had a high profile legal team as well as other avenues. To me it is just smoke and mirrors.
Karen Read's defense don't have to answer any of the questions you have put to the forum (rhetorical or otherwise) in your post which I have quoted above in full. (Although after I began typing this I see that @ch_13 has given it a good go!)

They are not required to prove who did kill him if it wasn't Karen. They are not required to prove every single person's specific role in the cover up that they are alleging.

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that John O'Keefe was murdered by Karen Read in the 2nd Degree, by assaulting him with the rear of her vehicle and leaving him to die outside 34 Fairview Road, Canton in the early hours of 29 January 2022.
 
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I understand Lally's problem with if, when, and how to deal with Proctor (a very bad cop) but the ME thing is puzzling. 50 plus witnesses in and the jury knows very little about what happened to John's body, never mind how it happened.

But I'm starting to wonder if they are even going to put on a very necessary accident reconstructionist to explain how those injuries could have happened in any scenario involving Karen Read. I suppose it's possible the CW figures it will let the individual jurors come up with their own scenarios. An expert not only would have to have explain how all of those injuries happened simultaneously (small deep back-of-the-head wound with associated skull fractures, multiple arm lacerations with corresponding puncture wounds to clothing, bruising to both fists) from a car backing up, they'd also have to explain basic things like how he landed where he did and how he managed to escape other injury below his head while busting up a taillight into 45 pieces. And why her vehicle had zero body damage, despite the claim that she sent him flying 12 feet sideways.

Of course, such an expert would be in a very tough spot because the Michael Proctor lead investigation resulted in zoomed in photos with no context and a total lack of any measurements. How do you come up with a viable - and believable - narrative if you don't have basic scene details? If the CW puts on a half-assed story using an expert who can't really answer many, if any, questions, Read's biomechanical experts will mop the floor with them.

But letting the individual jurors try to come up with their own scenarios is just as bad. I recall that on the site visit one of the jurors looked under Read's vehicle. Presumably he saw no teeth, claws, or machinery that could have ripped up O'Keefe's sweatshirt. The jurors have had enough of their lives wasted listen to Lally's droning about nothing, and I doubt they have any inclination to do the Commonwealth's job for them.
Yes! And a reconstruction that shows how those injuries were incurred, and what surface(s) of the vehicle or environment did so. And from what vehicle movements and maneuvers. And that includes those parallel gouges or furrows IIRC on JOK right arm? One side of the arm only IIUC. It seems IMO there would be no surfaces or protrusions on the rear or undercarriage of that Lexus to cause the injuries to the arm. Was the victim facing the vehicle or looking another direction; and what position when the vehicle was alleged to have stuck him? And contrast the wounds to the arm surface with the recovered long sleeve shirt worn IIRC? MOO
 
;)I understand Lally's problem with if, when, and how to deal with Proctor (a very bad cop) but the ME thing is puzzling. 50 plus witnesses in and the jury knows very little about what happened to John's body, never mind how it happened.

But I'm starting to wonder if they are even going to put on a very necessary accident reconstructionist to explain how those injuries could have happened in any scenario involving Karen Read. I suppose it's possible the CW figures it will let the individual jurors come up with their own scenarios. An expert not only would have to have explain how all of those injuries happened simultaneously (small deep back-of-the-head wound with associated skull fractures, multiple arm lacerations with corresponding puncture wounds to clothing, bruising to both fists) from a car backing up, they'd also have to explain basic things like how he landed where he did and how he managed to escape other injury below his head while busting up a taillight into 45 pieces. And why her vehicle had zero body damage, despite the claim that she sent him flying 12 feet sideways.

Of course, such an expert would be in a very tough spot because the Michael Proctor lead investigation resulted in zoomed in photos with no context and a total lack of any measurements. How do you come up with a viable - and believable - narrative if you don't have basic scene details? If the CW puts on a half-assed story using an expert who can't really answer many, if any, questions, Read's biomechanical experts will mop the floor with them.

But letting the individual jurors try to come up with their own scenarios is just as bad. I recall that on the site visit one of the jurors looked under Read's vehicle. Presumably he saw no teeth, claws, or machinery that could have ripped up O'Keefe's sweatshirt. The jurors have had enough of their lives wasted listen to Lally's droning about nothing, and I doubt they have any inclination to do the Commonwealth's job for them.

You have provided a wealth of knowledge, perspective and have often refreshed our memories of things forgotten—I really appreciate your input on these threads.

I think, maybe, when this gets turned into a book or a series, they should consult with you. ;)
 
I understand Lally's problem with if, when, and how to deal with Proctor (a very bad cop) but the ME thing is puzzling. 50 plus witnesses in and the jury knows very little about what happened to John's body, never mind how it happened.

But I'm starting to wonder if they are even going to put on a very necessary accident reconstructionist to explain how those injuries could have happened in any scenario involving Karen Read. I suppose it's possible the CW figures it will let the individual jurors come up with their own scenarios. An expert not only would have to have explain how all of those injuries happened simultaneously (small deep back-of-the-head wound with associated skull fractures, multiple arm lacerations with corresponding puncture wounds to clothing, bruising to both fists) from a car backing up, they'd also have to explain basic things like how he landed where he did and how he managed to escape other injury below his head while busting up a taillight into 45 pieces. And why her vehicle had zero body damage, despite the claim that she sent him flying 12 feet sideways.

Of course, such an expert would be in a very tough spot because the Michael Proctor lead investigation resulted in zoomed in photos with no context and a total lack of any measurements. How do you come up with a viable - and believable - narrative if you don't have basic scene details? If the CW puts on a half-assed story using an expert who can't really answer many, if any, questions, Read's biomechanical experts will mop the floor with them.

But letting the individual jurors try to come up with their own scenarios is just as bad. I recall that on the site visit one of the jurors looked under Read's vehicle. Presumably he saw no teeth, claws, or machinery that could have ripped up O'Keefe's sweatshirt. The jurors have had enough of their lives wasted listen to Lally's droning about nothing, and I doubt they have any inclination to do the Commonwealth's job for them.
Yes, waiting to hear from the ME on how JO didn't die

O’Keefe’s injuries​

According to prosecutors, a doctor with the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner documented wounds on O’Keefe’s right forearm, two swollen black eyes, cuts on his face and the back of his head, and multiple skull fractures that led to bleeding in his brain.

“The doctor opined that the extensive injuries to his head likely rendered Mr. O’Keefe incapacitated,” prosecutors said in a February court filing. “The doctor further opined that upon viewing Mr. O’Keefe’s injuries and her examination of the body, she observed no signs of Mr. O’Keefe being involved in any type of physical altercation or fight.”
 
Tell me why Proctor is the mastermind of framing Karen and how he convinced so many people to lie including EMS? What was in it for him? If Colin Albert 'pulverized' O'Keefe then why is Proctor going to great lengths to cover up a murder? Planting evidence, getting everyone in on the big lie? Why protect Colin Albert?
ETA: Colin has a small window of time to beat the snot out of John to the point of death. The people in the house during that small window of time all decide to collude on how they are going to cover it up. 'Hey guys Karen dropped John off so lets say that he never came into the house so she must have hit him! Yeah yeah that's the story!'. So now to go with that version of events they need to get John's body out on the front lawn over by the fire hydrant/flag pole without anyone else seeing them. Again with only a small window of time to do so.
How many people would it take to carry a dead person through the snow? Now comes the planting of the evidence...to make the "Karen hit John" story fly they need evidence to be planted. They need access to Karen's car and need to collect tail light pieces and add some damage to the area. It's almost like Karen was in on the story because when she returned she went straight to where John was laying.


Karen had this evidence way back but chose not to mention it until she dropped it when talking to Bukhenik? If you were being framed for the murder of your loved one wouldn't you be getting that information to the authorities asap? Wouldn't you want justice? Wouldn't you go to your loved one's family and at the very least provide the evidence to them? I don't want to hear the excuse that Karen had nobody to tell because everyone was in on the conspiracy. This was 2022 and she already had a high profile legal team as well as other avenues. To me it is just smoke and mirrors.
Ah the voice of sanity and reason ….so refreshing.

IMO the defense strategy reeks of desperation.
I’m hoping the jury sees straight through it.
 
Ah the voice of sanity and reason ….so refreshing.

IMO the defense strategy reeks of desperation.
I’m hoping the jury sees straight through it.

Some would say a prosecutor trying to sneak a mirrored camera angle sally port video into the trial and past the jurors without even bringing it up reeks of desperation.
 
Some would say a prosecutor trying to sneak a mirrored camera angle sally port video into the trial and past the jurors without even bringing it up reeks of desperation.

Why, it's almost as if the CW was committing fraud in the courtroom! MOO

This poor jury has been swimming in reasonable doubt, and yesterday after the video sham was revealed these poor people are now reaching for scuba tanks and goggles. Make it stop !!!

MOO
 
Some would say a prosecutor trying to sneak a mirrored camera angle sally port video into the trial and past the jurors without even bringing it up reeks of desperation.

Tried to sneak a different CD past the Canton IT guy too. Can you authenticate this? "No, that is not what I handed over to the state."

Then what was that CD, Lally? Do you even know what you handed him? Where's the actual disc the witness turned over to the state police? Could it be, perhaps, that the original was destroyed because it depicted Karen Read driving by the library with two intact taillights?

And then there's the JO Ring footage. Trooper B. tried to imply Karen deleted video of her returning from Fairview that night and the alleged unpresented footage of Jen and Kerry and Karen studying her taillight at 1 Meadows. But according to the Ring data, this could not have happened at the home user end. If anyone got rid of that footage, it was, you guessed it, Bad Cop Michael Proctor.
 
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