Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 20

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It was serious enough that he and others have been charged.
I am aware that this case is not the reason he was removed from Madeleine's case.
I don't believe its a distraction either but disturbing when you consider the way he has run this investigation.

I think it is odd, that in the beginning of Gerrys blog, he had MANY good things to say about the PLE. Seriously, we need to look things over again. I believe it wasn't until the McCanns were made formal suspects did the tide turn.

I'll look at the dates of the news articles where friend came out saying the McCanns were disturbed with the PLE preformance on the first night...Were they printed BEFORE or AFTER they were made arquidoes? (I'm not sure, myself...)
 
The papal visit wasn't quite as special as it was presented, they didn't actually meet with the Pope one on one or speak personally or privately with him.

They were in a group, he came by, they had a photo of Maddie and he blessed it, may have blessed them as well, same for the rest of the group. More along the lines of a "meet and greet" kind of event, if that makes sense.

It is a little unusual that they were able to get even that on such short notice, but my guess is they were added to an already scheduled group of British citizens via the Foreign Office connections.
 
I wanted to touch on the question of "what would you do" if your child came up missing.
There's at least 2 sides to this. We have people belonging to this site who have a child missing, and years have gone by. There are people like John Walsh, who has been a very public figure, and though his son's body was eventually found, he was still missing for quite some time. Natalie Holloway's mom, Lacey Peterson's family, etc.
Then you have people like Susan Smith.
I am not completely accurate on the details, but my friend is in this situation. In 1980, in Alaska, her daughter left with her boyfriend to go to a concert. No trace of her has been found since. She has told me how she spent years physically searching for her daughter almost every single day. She is a functioning drunk, and she makes no apologies. Most of the time she believes her daughter is dead, but every now and then she hopes she ran away and doesn't want to be found, even though they were very close and there is not one shred of motive for her to have done this. She tells me to be sober would be for her to go insane. She has grieved for her daughter for the last 28 years. And just to address the whole IVF of Maddie, this daughter was adopted. I did not meet this woman until the late '90's, but knowing her as I do, I don't believe for a minute when her daughter disappeared she ever gave a about highlighting her hair, she probably didn't even care if she combed it.
I knew another woman when I was a kid and we first moved back to Texas. Her 13-year-old granddaughter was abducted, and some time later her remains were found in a rock quarry. I first met her abut 2 years later. She was a woman who had the elaborate beehive hairdo, and put her makeup on with a trowel. I was 12, and could even see then the grief she carried with her constantly. I visited her a lot, and not once could she talk to me about her granddaughter without tears.
Yes, I think the McCann's are guilty in the disappearance of their daughter. In my opinion, their words, actions, and general attitude screams "COVERUP". I think they believe they have covered their tracks well enough to never be charged and convicted, and unfortunately, I also believe they are right. To me this is the equivalant of a slap in the face to every person out there who has loved and cared for their child, and had some outside party steal that child away from them. These people, at least the ones I know of, have always from the very first found some way to twist logic to blame themselves, "If I hadn't let her go," "If I hadn't looked away", "If I had gone to the laundromat the day before", etc., while the McCann's are, "We did nothing wrong."
To all of you who think the McCann's are not guilty, you are entitled to your opinion. I concede there is no concrete evidence to prove they were involved, but point out there is also no concrete evidence to prove anyone else was involved, either, so both sides of this issue are based on supposition.
Lanie
 
Dear Lanie,

Thank you SO much for your post. You touched on many things that I think many of us believe. For anyone who is interested in reading a heart breaking case of a mothers love and struggle to find her missing daughter of 35 years, please visit this thread:
Searching for Anna Christian Waters
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=104

After reading it, you will see why the McCanns get on my nerves so much!
 
I wanted to touch on the question of "what would you do" if your child came up missing.
There's at least 2 sides to this. We have people belonging to this site who have a child missing, and years have gone by. There are people like John Walsh, who has been a very public figure, and though his son's body was eventually found, he was still missing for quite some time. Natalie Holloway's mom, Lacey Peterson's family, etc.
Then you have people like Susan Smith.
I am not completely accurate on the details, but my friend is in this situation. In 1980, in Alaska, her daughter left with her boyfriend to go to a concert. No trace of her has been found since. She has told me how she spent years physically searching for her daughter almost every single day. She is a functioning drunk, and she makes no apologies. Most of the time she believes her daughter is dead, but every now and then she hopes she ran away and doesn't want to be found, even though they were very close and there is not one shred of motive for her to have done this. She tells me to be sober would be for her to go insane. She has grieved for her daughter for the last 28 years. And just to address the whole IVF of Maddie, this daughter was adopted. I did not meet this woman until the late '90's, but knowing her as I do, I don't believe for a minute when her daughter disappeared she ever gave a about highlighting her hair, she probably didn't even care if she combed it.
I knew another woman when I was a kid and we first moved back to Texas. Her 13-year-old granddaughter was abducted, and some time later her remains were found in a rock quarry. I first met her abut 2 years later. She was a woman who had the elaborate beehive hairdo, and put her makeup on with a trowel. I was 12, and could even see then the grief she carried with her constantly. I visited her a lot, and not once could she talk to me about her granddaughter without tears.
Yes, I think the McCann's are guilty in the disappearance of their daughter. In my opinion, their words, actions, and general attitude screams "COVERUP". I think they believe they have covered their tracks well enough to never be charged and convicted, and unfortunately, I also believe they are right. To me this is the equivalant of a slap in the face to every person out there who has loved and cared for their child, and had some outside party steal that child away from them. These people, at least the ones I know of, have always from the very first found some way to twist logic to blame themselves, "If I hadn't let her go," "If I hadn't looked away", "If I had gone to the laundromat the day before", etc., while the McCann's are, "We did nothing wrong."
To all of you who think the McCann's are not guilty, you are entitled to your opinion. I concede there is no concrete evidence to prove they were involved, but point out there is also no concrete evidence to prove anyone else was involved, either, so both sides of this issue are based on supposition.
Lanie

AWESOME post Lanie. Couldn't have said it better myself :blowkiss:
 
I am going to stick to the premise innocent until PROVEN guilty.
 
I am going to stick to the premise innocent until PROVEN guilty.

I just have to ask this, please don't take it to sound mean. But if this whole mess ever goes to trial, in Portugal, and the Judge feels the PLE has proven them guilty, and sends the McCanns to prison, will you believe it? Would you be satisfied? If not, what would the proof need to be? A confession? Would you feel the confession was forced, or coressed? What would it take?
 
I just have to ask this, please don't take it to sound mean. But if this whole mess ever goes to trial, in Portugal, and the Judge feels the PLE has proven them guilty, and sends the McCanns to prison, will you believe it? Would you be satisfied? If not, what would the proof need to be? A confession? Would you feel the confession was forced, or coressed? What would it take?

It would depend on the evidence presented,if it was incontrovertible then yes I would accept it.At the moment I have seen nothing to say they are guilty and I wont judge them on clothes and jewellry.
 
I just have to ask this, please don't take it to sound mean. But if this whole mess ever goes to trial, in Portugal, and the Judge feels the PLE has proven them guilty, and sends the McCanns to prison, will you believe it? Would you be satisfied? If not, what would the proof need to be? A confession? Would you feel the confession was forced, or coressed? What would it take?

You bring up an excellent point IW and I have thought about this alot.

If the McCanns are charged and go to trail and are found innocent, will the people who have thought they were directly involved in her disappearance think:

A. That there is some kind of conspiracy involving very powerful people who paid off the judge?

B. The McCanns got away with it?

C. The PJ failed to do their job and bungled the case?

OR????

And if the McCanns are charged and go to trail and are found guilty, will the people who have thought they were in no way involved in her disappearance think:

A. They were framed by the Portuguese LE?

B. That Maddie is still alive and being held somewhere?

C. That the evidence was bogus?

OR????

If they were found to be innocent of manslaughter (or whatever) and disposing of a corpse would people still demand (or expect) that they face charges for neglect? Or would people say they have suffered enough?

I am afraid that no matter what happens, short of a confession, people will not be satisfied. The longer this drags on the more stubborn people will become about what they believe happened.

It will never end....
 
Well both really as they would present evidence in court.

I realize that the evidence would be presented in court however, what if the evidence was laid out prior to trial? Would you think that the evidence was bogus if it implicated the McCanns? Or would you accept it?

What I am envisioning is that the PJ present DNA evidence that points at Madeleine's corpse being in the Scenic. Would you believe it?

It has been reported in the media for months now. What would it take to convince you? What sort of official information would you need?

Just asking....
 
I realize that the evidence would be presented in court however, what if the evidence was laid out prior to trial? Would you think that the evidence was bogus if it implicated the McCanns? Or would you accept it?

What I am envisioning is that the PJ present DNA evidence that points at Madeleine's corpse being in the Scenic. Would you believe it?

It has been reported in the media for months now. What would it take to convince you? What sort of official information would you need?

Just asking....

TBH I dont know.A lot would depend on the source of the evidence and I tend not to pay too much attention to the media either reports for OR against the McCanns
 
I am going to stick to the premise innocent until PROVEN guilty.

That is a court provision to help ensure people get a fair trial. There is quite a difference between the opinions of people in an online sleuthing forum and the restrictions imposed in a court of law. If this went to trial tomorrow in the US, and I was picked to serve on the jury, and the only evidence against them was what I have PERSONALLY used to come to my opinion of their involvement, I would be forced to vote 'not guilty'.
However, I live in the US, and here, we are still entitled to our opinions on a person's guilt or innocence, even if it is based on the phase of the moon on the 12th of September.

And for the record, it is my personal opinion OJ is guilty, my personal opinion the Ramsey's are guilty, and I am still on the fence about what happened to Trenton Duckett, but I lean way far over to his mom is guilty.
Lanie
 
You bring up an excellent point IW and I have thought about this alot.

If the McCanns are charged and go to trail and are found innocent, will the people who have thought they were directly involved in her disappearance think:

A. That there is some kind of conspiracy involving very powerful people who paid off the judge?

B. The McCanns got away with it?

C. The PJ failed to do their job and bungled the case?

OR????

And if the McCanns are charged and go to trail and are found guilty, will the people who have thought they were in no way involved in her disappearance think:

A. They were framed by the Portuguese LE?

B. That Maddie is still alive and being held somewhere?

C. That the evidence was bogus?

OR????

If they were found to be innocent of manslaughter (or whatever) and disposing of a corpse would people still demand (or expect) that they face charges for neglect? Or would people say they have suffered enough?

I am afraid that no matter what happens, short of a confession, people will not be satisfied. The longer this drags on the more stubborn people will become about what they believe happened.

It will never end....
I would accept if they were found guilty if DNA proof of a dead Madeleine was found and they were able to link it to the McCanns. I wouldn't have a problem with that. I would trust the UK lab results. At this point I really don't trust the PLE.
I think you will have as many answers as there are possibilities.
The only outcome we can all agree on is the hope that Madeleine will be found....alive and well.
 
These people NEVER LOOKED for their daughter!!! What they did instead:
+Within 48 hours 2 UK lawyers were flown to Portugal to consult with McCann's
+Within days, website asking for DONATIONS was established!
+UK government began protecting them from negative investigation!
+Sky news was called by Kate? Gerry? relative? even before they contacted the police!
+Their contacts enabled a media blitz of only positive information about them and missing daughter - no negative information, such as they purposefully left their children every night alone to dine/drink alone, even to a restaurant several miles away!
+Website began selling items with Madeleine's name!
+Innumerable photo ops of them around town and elsewhere - all prearranged. Interviews were controlled by only certain questions allowed; they demanded 2 hours notice of what questions were to be asked in order to allow time to prepare their answers!
+They hired SPOKESPERSONS to speak for them to the press!
All of the above were within the first few weeks! As time proceeded, McCann's expanded their publicity throughout Europe, Morocco, etc.
I emailed the PJ chief after a couple of months outlining the above emphasizing the fact THEY THEMSELVES NEVER LOOKED FOR MADELEINE!!
Kathleen
 
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