Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

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Imagine the commotion if a young child woke up in the arms of a stranger, in the dark...
 
Any particular reason the abductor would need to do it during a brisk walk? He could have walked slowly, stopped for a moment or shifted her right there in the apartment before going anywhere.
 
Five minutes is enough if Madeleine was for example handed by person1 to person2 through that window.
The person1 can then leave the apartment through the main door and walk hands in pockets.
The position of the child in Smiths sighting to me suggests that that person hasn't picked up Madeleine from her bed.
If he did, then her head would be leaning on his right shoulder.
In Smiths sighting they said the childs head was on left side.
To pick up Madeleine this way the abductor would need to climb on the bed and pick up Madeleine from the walls side.

Surely she must have been drugged then , why go via the window and not the door? . I also wonder if she was lifted over some ones shoulder , that may put her over their left , then on account of her being floppy she got put into the scooped position , didnt a witness say they saw a man carrying the child awkwardly suggesting that they didnt normally do it ? Either way im still finding it hard to believe she was asleep through this .
 
It would be hard for the person to change her position from right to left during a brisk walk. She is a sleeping child who doesn't know him.

Or he maybe picked her up from the right, then put her in the car, front seat and drove to the near Smirths location. Then picked her up from the left this time.

I've seen many a child carried by an adult male. I've yet to see any of the men having even a slight hint of a problem changing positions while walking with the child in arms. In fact, I've seen a lot of women do it too, myself included.

As to the second paragraph above, is there any evidence of a car being used at the time of supposed abduction while in the vicinity of the supposed abduction? TIA
 
Five minutes is enough if Madeleine was for example handed by person1 to person2 through that window.
The person1 can then leave the apartment through the main door and walk hands in pockets.

Why trhrough the window, maneuvering around the twins cots? Did the person 1 had a night vision on? And if the Maddie's bed was the ne near the window, as edwood said, it still does not make things easier, because the perp had to walk across the room, around the cots. Why not to pick one of the kids from the cots, instead of pushing your way through the room? This kidnapper just loved to make his life more difficult.

01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16a.jpg


...and, being a neat man, the person no1 closed the shutters and the window, after his colleague left.

The position of the child in Smiths sighting to me suggests that that person hasn't picked up Madeleine from her bed.
If he did, then her head would be leaning on his right shoulder.
In Smiths sighting they said the childs head was on left side.
To pick up Madeleine this way the abductor would need to climb on the bed and pick up Madeleine from the walls side.

You can shift the child's position very easily, even without waking the kid up.
 
sbm~

You can shift the child's position very easily, even without waking the kid up.

Sure can, especially if they're freshly dead.

:(

BTW I've just realised this discounts all the theories that Madeleine died earlier in the night. Rigor would already have set in if so. :twocents:
 
As to the second paragraph above, is there any evidence of a car being used at the time of supposed abduction while in the vicinity of the supposed abduction? TIA

Why I mention car is because of the car park next to the OC. I mentioned this several times since yesterday and would not like to repeat myself but hours after Madeleine went missing the portuguese police used the search dogs, also few days late, all together4 times, 4 dogs, went the same way, around the block and to a car park where they all stopped.

Now, I am not sure if Madeleine is being carried, whether these dogs would still follow her scent.
Few years ago there was a long discussion about this but because the dogs route did not match the Jane Tanner sighting this was dropped.
Now when we know that JT sighting is discounted I thought the dogs route can be revisited.
Here is the photo of the dogs route
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/06/article-1042099-022F939200000578-880_468x304.jpg
 
Why I mention car is because of the car park next to the OC. I mentioned this several times since yesterday and would not like to repeat myself but hours after Madeleine went missing the portuguese police used the search dogs, also few days late, all together4 times, 4 dogs, went the same way, around the block and to a car park where they all stopped.

Now, I am not sure if Madeleine is being carried, whether these dogs would still follow her scent.
Few years ago there was a long discussion about this but because the dogs route did not match the Jane Tanner sighting this was dropped.
Now when we know that JT sighting is discounted I thought the dogs route can be revisited.
Here is the photo of the dogs route
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/06/article-1042099-022F939200000578-880_468x304.jpg



I love how the dogs are either completely wrong or completely right depending on the day.

:seeya:

the cadaver dog - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 
I thought I read a post with a link yesterday that said the scent that the dogs picked up in the carpark could have been from the day before??
 
Why trhrough the window, maneuvering around the twins cots? Did the person 1 had a night vision on? And if the Maddie's bed was the ne near the window, as edwood said, it still does not make things easier, because the perp had to walk across the room, around the cots. Why not to pick one of the kids from the cots, instead of pushing your way through the room? This kidnapper just loved to make his life more difficult.

01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16a.jpg


...and, being a neat man, the person no1 closed the shutters and the window, after his colleague left.



You can shift the child's position very easily, even without waking the kid up.

The window was left open.
Walking around the cots is not a problem.
Maybe Madeleine was chosen to be taken?
Night vision wouldn't be a problem if person knew the apartment, worked there or been there before.
I must admit that for a long time I suspected MO to be this person1 but since SY is not suspecting him I am not going to suspect him either.
 
The dogs will pick up the oldest scent and follow it to the newest.

Madeleine may not have left a scent if being carried, but the K9s can confirm this. I know that contact leaves a lot more to track, ie actual footsteps of the person. I also know when the person leaves the ground somehow, like getting in a car, the track is lost.

The scent they found and tracked may well have been from an earlier day.

:moo:
 
sbm~



Sure can, especially if they're freshly dead.

:(

BTW I've just realised this discounts all the theories that Madeleine died earlier in the night. Rigor would already have set in if so. :twocents:

I may be wrong but doesnt rigor start a few hours after death not straight away ?

Just googled it starts 3 plus hours after but the main body would be hours later since jaw , neck and internal organs go first . Also apparantly it doesnt always show in infants and small children.
 
The scent they found and tracked may well have been from an earlier day.

:moo:

It might have been if Madeleine went in this location the day before but she did not.
Also that day we know that Madeleine went different way, to her day nursery..
If the dogs follow the freshest scent, wouldn't they go to the nursery instead going to the car park?
 
I may be wrong but doesnt rigor start a few hours after death not straight away ?

IIRC rigor starts between 4-6 hours after death.

Some folks theory included Madeleine dying much, much earlier, in fact some believed she actually died the day before.

The lack of rigor at 10 tends to argue that she died after say, 4pm, maybe even after 6.

Which puts an entirely new emphasis on the 30 second/5 minute visit/discrepancy/lie from Payne and Kate...:scared:

:moo:
 
It might have been if Madeleine went in this location the day before but she did not.
Also that day we know that Madeleine went different way, to her day nursery..
If the dogs follow the freshest scent, wouldn't they go to the nursery instead going to the car park?

They go oldest to freshest.

Madeleine came back to the apartment from the crèche, so any footsteps she took after that would be fresher.

If she'd gone back to the crèche, only then would the dogs track her back there.

she went (presumably) crèche - apartment - carpark

not carpark-apartment-crèche.
 
IIRC rigor starts between 4-6 hours after death.

Some folks theory included Madeleine dying much, much earlier, in fact some believed she actually died the day before.

The lack of rigor at 10 tends to argue that she died after say, 4pm, maybe even after 6.

Which puts an entirely new emphasis on the 30 second/5 minute visit/discrepancy/lie from Payne and Kate...:scared:

:moo:
This is called twisting the facts to fit into your theory.
Professional police do not work this way.
This would also mean the whole group of friends knew of Madeleine being dead and all of them covering it up.
And Scotland Yard with hundreds of years of policing experience would miss this?
 
From Wiki

''At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two and six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. The sequence may be due to different lactic acid levels among different muscles, which is directly related to the difference in glycogen levels and different types of muscle fibers. Rigor mortis then spreads to the other muscles within the next four to six hours, including the internal organs. The onset of rigor mortis is affected by the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build. Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass''
 
This is called twisting the facts to fit into your theory.
Professional police do not work this way.
This would also mean the whole group of friends knew of Madeleine being dead and all of them covering it up.
And Scotland Yard with hundreds of years of policing experience would miss this?

Scotland Yard have only been involved since Operation Grange..and only investigating again since June this year...:waitasec:

They were nowhere near the original investigation!

It's far too early in the process for me to criticise it so I dispute that implication strongly.

It's only October, and we already have the "official timeline" that has stood for six years, totally blown out of the water. That's downright impressive. :thumb:

Scotland Yard with their "hundreds of years" of policing experience have not missed a single thing so far, they're only 3 months in and as chum AR says "we have a long way to go".

In fact, I'm thrilled and impressed so far and I now have high hopes for this investigation, AR's strange burblings and nonsensical tv appearances notwithstanding.

The efit of Gerry alone has told me they are on the right track. :D

:seeya:
 
IIRC rigor starts between 4-6 hours after death.

Some folks theory included Madeleine dying much, much earlier, in fact some believed she actually died the day before.

The lack of rigor at 10 tends to argue that she died after say, 4pm, maybe even after 6.

Which puts an entirely new emphasis on the 30 second/5 minute visit/discrepancy/lie from Payne and Kate...:scared:

:moo:

You are assuming that it was Madeleine who was seen being carried away, but that has not so far been confirmed.

It might have been if Madeleine went in this location the day before but she did not.

I've said this before - you don't know that.
 
You are assuming that it was Madeleine who was seen being carried away, but that has not so far been confirmed.



I've said this before - you don't know that.

As the case is still unsolved none of us know anything....:waitasec:
 
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