Madonna Angers the Vatican

[tybee204]

Somebody is always offended by something. Its all part of the victim mentality that so thrives in our society. Seriously unless one was raised in an Italian Catholic home, in an Italian Catholic neighborhood they have no idea whether the women in her generation were repressed. My husband is Italian Catholic first generation American and I can tell you Im related to plenty of pissed of at God and the Church women. Of course they for the most part express it in prozac and a stiff Manhattan.

 

[southcitymom]

....Of course they for the most part express it in prozac and a stiff Manhattan.

Yes but would they nail themselves to a cross in a thong if they COULD?:crazy:

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Yes but would they nail themselves to a cross in a thong if they COULD?:crazy:

Who wouldnt'?

 

[southcitymom]

Who wouldnt'?

Exactly!

 

[tybee204]

Art that invokes a response is successful Art. If it makes you think. reflect, stirs anger or passion it has served its purpose.

I for one have no desire to live in a world without angst and passion or fear of offending one person or another. The only Art would then be Norman Rockwell and that Kincaid guy that paints country cottages.

Artists express themselves through their work and whether you love or hate Madonna she lives by her limits and not the limits of others. She is a strong woman that doesnt let anyone chart her course.

 

[Nova]

Uh, I don't get it. Why is Madonna's use of a crucifixion image necessarily sacriligious or an attack on the Catholic Church? Crucifixion-as-metaphor or mere sight gag appears throughout the past 2,000 years of Western culture, from "high art" media such as Renaissance paintings and Melville's Billy Budd, to popular offerings such Monty Python movies and the pilot episode of TV's Smallville.

Why is this particular faux-crucifixion such an outrage?

 

[Marthatex]

Well, Nova. I love art too. But, it's just kinda "in their face", being in Italy and on Sunday. It's kinda about who's on the cross. I can understand how it is offensive; yet I believe in freedom of expression. I just think we should respect other countries and their dominant religion, and their religious practices.

Especially nowadays - you know we're so POPULAR in the world and all - heck Italy's one of our few allies, right?

I don't really care what Madonna does (obviously her very name is making a statement, right?) - but hate to alienate any more folks.

It's a matter of respect, Nova. (hey you and I disagreeing, that's a rarity, but OK)

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Uh, I don't get it. Why is Madonna's use of a crucifixion image necessarily sacriligious or an attack on the Catholic Church? Crucifixion-as-metaphor or mere sight gag appears throughout the past 2,000 years of Western culture, from "high art" media such as Renaissance paintings and Melville's Billy Budd, to popular offerings such Monty Python movies and the pilot episode of TV's Smallville.

Why is this particular faux-crucifixion such an outrage?

Perhaps its her trying to compare herself with Jesus? I'm not Catholic, so that's just my guess. I don't care for Madonna, so there's not too much she can do that I agree with.

 

[Marthatex]

Perhaps its her trying to compare herself with Jesus? I'm not Catholic, so that's just my guess. I don't care for Madonna, so there's not too much she can do that I agree with.

That's right Jeana, I think it's about who's on the cross, not the cross itself. Offensive IMO

 

[Nova]

That's right Jeana, I think it's about who's on the cross, not the cross itself. Offensive IMO

Because she's a woman?

A few years ago, a theater in New Jersey received death threats because they cast an African-American man as Jesus in a play.

I'm not sure accommodating magical thinking is a matter of respect. I think we might better call it enabling.

 

[Marthatex]

Because she's a woman?

A few years ago, a theater in New Jersey received death threats because they cast an African-American man as Jesus in a play.

I'm not sure accommodating magical thinking is a matter of respect. I think we might better call it enabling.

No, not because it's a woman for friggin sakes. Because it's not Jesus. Ok, is she pretending to be Jesus? I don't know the show or the context of the whole thing. Is it respectful or a "farce"? I don't know.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Well,since I think Madonna has very talent to begin with,I'd have to say that this crucifiction thing is the ultimate in bad taste as well as an affront to Christians everywhere around the world-----never been much of a fan of her teeny-bopper music,although I did like one of her first songs INTO THE GROOVE(1983)from the insipid movie Desperately Seeking Susan--

 

[Peter Hamilton]

should say "very little" talent

 

[PaperDoll]

Somebody is always offended by something. Its all part of the victim mentality that so thrives in our society. Seriously unless one was raised in an Italian Catholic home, in an Italian Catholic neighborhood they have no idea whether the women in her generation were repressed. My husband is Italian Catholic first generation American and I can tell you Im related to plenty of pissed of at God and the Church women. Of course they for the most part express it in prozac and a stiff Manhattan.[/QUOTE]


:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Marthatex]

should say "very little" talent

I never heard one song of hers I liked; like someone said, boring.

And I have had musical training.

Most musical groups and performers, I just don't remember them doing religious themes - correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Nova]

No, not because it's a woman for friggin sakes. Because it's not Jesus. Ok, is she pretending to be Jesus? I don't know the show or the context of the whole thing. Is it respectful or a "farce"? I don't know.

How do we know it's not because she's a woman? It's a long trip from pop singer appears briefly on a "cross-like set piece" to "attack on the Catholic Church" and "hate speech." (We'll agree "narcissistic" and "delusions of grandeur" almost certainly apply to anything Madonna does.)

It's one thing to say people have a right to their religious beliefs. They certainly do.

But it's quite another to say everyone else must tiptoe around to avoid "upsetting" those who hold certain beliefs.

 

[narlacat]

I never heard one song of hers I liked; like someone said, boring.

And I have had musical training.

Most musical groups and performers, I just don't remember them doing religious themes - correct me if I'm wrong.

I've never heard a song of hers I don't like lol.

I love Madonna.

I have no qualms with her doing the concert.

Big music stars always have big lavish concerts, it's all about the stage show these days.

I don't find her offensive at all and especially loved 'Like a Prayer' and "American Life'.

 

[Nova]

I never heard one song of hers I liked; like someone said, boring.

And I have had musical training.

Most musical groups and performers, I just don't remember them doing religious themes - correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know about "most," Martha, but here are a few off the top of my head: Bach, Handel, Mozart, Richard Rodgers, Andrew LLoyd Webber, Jim Morrison, Billy Idol, Danny Kaye, Alan Alda, Amy Grant, Lawrence Welk, Leonard Bernstein and nearly every pop singer who made a video in the 1980s.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>The traditional roles placed on Catholic women CAN feel repressive whether you are forced into them or not. Had Madonna been raised Islamic, I would be willing to bet that - given her personality and chosen career path - she wouldn't hesitate to mock Islam. She's just not hot against Islam because it isn't the organized religion of her youth.<


Are you comparing the repression of Islam women with Catholic women? I don't believe that there is any comparison. Catholics don't stone their women when they are raped for one thing. I could go on but unless one has been living with their head in the sand there is no comparison. Last time I looked Catholic women weren't repressed. I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic school for years. I left the faith and became a Lutheran. I never felt repressed however. I was able to leave and change religions and still live to tell about it. There aren't any Christian women who don't have free choice. That is an astounding statement to make. Roles are not repressive when they are freely chosen. I guess you'll have to give me some proof to back up that statement. Show me one Catholic woman who is repressed.


>>Mel Gibson was hardly mocked and reviled after making The Passion.<<

You haven't been paying attention. He was raked over the coals and his father was dragged into it too. I was following it closely and can dig up some news stories links if you'd like.

>>Besides, any criticism of The Passion was just free press. Mel didn't care as much about WHAT they said about him or his movie as long as they said it alot and spelled the name correctly. <<

Are you sure about that? It doesn't sound like he's doing too well right now.


>>As for Gibson keeping his pants on and staying away from parties, I've seen some recent pictires that might lead one to believe otherwise.<<

Now THAT is exactly what I am talking about. Are these the pictures that were taken in the bar? The ones where he is standing there getting his picture taken with some female patrons who asked to have their photos taken with him? HOw many celebrities have their pictures taken with fans? Was he doing anything inappropriate in the pictures? Did he go home with one of them? Did they claim to have had a sexual encounter with Mel? Did they claim he touched them inappropriately or made suggestive advances? From what I've read the women claim they saw him sitting ALONE at the bar and went up to speak to him. How does this suggest to you that he was cheating on his wife?

Now that it's Madonna it is excused because she is repressed or no one listens to her anyway. When it's a Baldwin it's that they are nuts anyway and no one listens to them. Well how about we just assume that MG is nuts, or a has been, or no one listens to him or he was a repressed Catholic just expressing himself through his art. Yeah, that's the ticket. I understand that the particular branch of Catholicism that he follows is very very strict. He's probably just repressed.

No matter how much people want to deny it there is a bias here.

 

[Marthatex]

I don't know about "most," Martha, but here are a few off the top of my head: Bach, Handel, Mozart, Richard Rodgers, Andrew LLoyd Webber, Jim Morrison, Billy Idol, Danny Kaye, Alan Alda, Amy Grant, Lawrence Welk, Leonard Bernstein and nearly every pop singer who made a video in the 1980s.

OK, I guess I should have said religious themes that "shock" or "offend" the audience - didn't most of those present to their own audience, country, religion of choice; or did they go to another country to "present".

My beef is just her going to Italy with this; I think you have to have respect for another country's predominant language, religion, social more's, etc.

Would we go over to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and put on a show about "women's liberation"? Show women being stoned or taunted? Nope, don't think it would be a good idea.

Yes, "Jesus Christ, Superstar" was a hit in the 60's; but did it play in Italy? Don't know; but it was a rather positive celebration, wasn't it?