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Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #22

Discussion in 'Malaysia Airline Disasters' started by gregjrichards, Mar 7, 2014.

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  1. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Breaking news

    Malaysia Airlines says it has lost contact with a plane travelling from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, with 239 people on board.

    The airline said in a statement that flight MH370 disappeared at 02:40 local time on Saturday (18:40 GMT on Friday).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26492748

    I'm praying the plane is found and people on the plane survive.

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  2. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    guidelines for posting:
    *post in a civil manner
    *stay on topic
    *be respectful of the passengers' families- no sleuthing of crew or passengers is allowed
    *post only msm tweets and articles with links
    *other forum links are not allowed
    * for copyright compliance only 10% of an article is allowed to be posted
     
  3. Kimster

    Kimster Former Member

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    The moderators have been wading in a pool of alerts this morning - and most are coming from this forum. :yow: I wanted to review some of the issues that happened yesterday because if the issues continue, some of our members are going to find themselves on the outside looking in. :(

    - Discuss the topic and not each other. If you have a problem with a fellow poster, alert via the little red triangle in the upper corner of the post and the mods will review privately

    - Limit the one liners. A little humor while waiting is okay, but when it goes on and on then it falls into being "off topic" which is a forum violation. And make sure you're not poking fun at this tragedy. Not funny.

    - The political comments need to go in the Political Pavilion. Also, while it's a good thing to be proud of your own country, it's not good to make fun of other countries. Websleuths is an international community and we think each person is just as important as the next. We are proud to have all of you as members.

    If you have any questions, don't be afraid to privately contact the moderator of your choice. First you might want to review our Rules forum. Your answer can probably be found there --->The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
     
  4. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Members can create topic specific threads for in depth discussion, new developments in the case or as the need arises. New threads will go under mod review and a decision will be made whether to approve and open the thread for posting. Most threads are approved immediately.
     
  5. LambChop

    LambChop Former Member

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    Continue with your posts here.......
     
  6. aa9511

    aa9511 New Member

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    Morning all -

    So I see there is a flurry of "new developments" this morning -

    Per CNN:
    1. someone said plane flew around 4,000 ft.
    2. someone said the last words "goonight...." were spoken by the pilot
    3. sono-buoy (sp?) picked up one signal

    1>so now we have heard these altitudes in all of this:
    -45,000
    -12,000
    -5,000
    -4,000

    Tomorrow we're probably gonna hear the plane drove along a road for part of the journey across Malaysia.

    Because there have been so many differing reports on the altitudes, I don't believe any of them. I don't even believe the 45,000 one anymore. So all of the hypoxia theories might be moot point if the plane never went that high in the first place. I don't know who all these "sources" are for various newspapers and news organizations, but they have really let down the whole of journalism, IMO. All of these different reports can't be right, so some of them are obviously wrong.

    2>Well "sources" said a long time ago that the last person who said it was co-pilot. Then it got changed to, oh wait that's not confirmed. Now they are saying pilot. This is like point #1 - there are differing reports so thus IMO none of them can be believed.

    3>this is the only one of the latest "flurry" I believe as it relates to the search which Australians are heading and that's why I believe it.

    JMO.
     
  7. cady

    cady Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know if there are emergency lights outside the aircraft? Seems there should be so that if communication is compromised, scramblers won't shoot it down. JMO
     
  8. Steely Dan

    Steely Dan Former Member

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    I'm very confident that they will eventually find this plane. They said on CNN that they won't put the search vehicles in the water until the pings stop. I'm assuming this is because they want to get the area as small as they can hone in on.

    Someone on CNN also said that there might be no wreckage because two days after the crash there were two large storms that went through the area and they may have cleared everything away.

    I think it's very possible they could find the plane almost entirely intact on the ocean bottom.
     
  9. lawstudent

    lawstudent New Member

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    Can someone let me know if my understanding is correct, in a really oversimplified way:

    Different countries/airports use a few different GPS tracking systems - for a bad comparison, in the same way that different countries/areas use different cell phone carriers. ACARs is the system on the plane that allows you to connect into the system and give/get data, like a computer program. ATC can look at its screen and see where everyone is who is close to the airport and direct them accordingly.

    The transponder gives off signals at a radio frequency to whoever is around, whether they connected to the GPS company or not, notifying them that it is nearby and if necessary "squawking" an identifying code that tells whether it is civilian/military and what plane it is based on its assigned code.

    This is manually done by the pilot - the transponder doesn't magically know which plane it is - the pilot inputs a code that is assigned to the flight. As a result, when used to determine military v. civilian aircraft, it can only positively identify friendly targets but not hostile ones. If the other side receives no reply or an invalid reply, the object cannot be identified as friendly but is not positively identified as a foe. There are many reasons that friendly aircraft may not properly reply.

    This is why civilian aircrafts have been accidentally shot down - did not respond or did not properly respond, and I think for a while there were incidents where planes or ships would squawk a friendly code when they were enemies and do a sneak attack. So they continuously reassign codes so that they can't be kept track of. If they want to make sure it's the right commercial scheduled flight, they call the pilot directly, maybe through ATC, and say "squawk XYZ" and if he does, they know it's the real flight. But if it's not a scheduled flight, they can't contact the plane, and if it isn't in any way identifiable, it becomes identified as a possible threat.

    Then you have radar, which tracks all planes in the area, but can't determine much except size and direction. Used primarily for military purposes, and less sophisticated. It's purpose is to see planes coming at us, and if they can't be identified, to take action. It is also used as a backup in case there's a problem with the more sophisticated ATC systems and they need to see if planes are close to each other.

    If a transponder/ACARs fails, this normally isn't a huge issue, except maybe in a war zone, because they can still use radio communication to let everyone know who they are and where they are, like they normally do. They just call in and say "I lost my transponder, this is my altitude/coordinates, let me know when it's okay to land/where I should go in the meantime to avoid other planes." This is how we did everything before modern tracking technology. Pilots seem to regularly report this info anyway - they don't just rely on tracking data.

    It sounds like China used a different company than most in the area. The flight programs had the ability to dial into both systems - maybe like how a cell phone can attach to another carrier's tower if yours is not available? So it can turn off one and switch to the other so that China can see where it is on GPS as it enters Chinese airspace. Turning off the transponder sounds kind of like turning off the radio - if you don't need that communication at the moment, you're just adding to the static.

    The point I'm getting at is, pilots don't usually use the transponder as a primary means of communicating their whereabouts, and can use different computer programs coordinate with ATC. Most communication will be via radio and not dependent on these systems (although is the radio direct from ATC To the plane dependent on some sort of internet type system?). There is no one global system, or one way to identify an aircraft. Everything is voluntarily and done for the efficiency of air travel - we used to have air travel without these systems. They choose to connect to the GPS in order to coordinate with ATC, but ATC isn't just supposed to keep track of every plane in existence - it's supposed to work with pilots to determine who is nearby and keep them apart until they prepare to land. It's not a military operation. They are not responsible for being able to track every airplane, and there are backup systems, but they aren't there to take into account a pilot who is being unresponsive - mostly because if the pilot/crew won't respond and use any of the systems, no one can be of any help - at that point it's a military issue. No one has ever bothered to develop a way to track totally disabled planes, because it's so unlikely to happen in a situation where it could make any difference. They rely on the pilots being cooperative, and if it's a situation like hypoxia or those pilots who overflew their destination by hours without checking in, then the tracking systems would still work so they can send someone to go look. For the pilot not to respond and all tracking to be disabled, it has either become an issue of demand-less hijacking or military attack necessitating a shootdown, which is extremely rare, or the plane has crashed/exploded and no one can do anything but look for the wreckage.

    The military uses the radar to make sure no one is attacking, but it has a limited application. Things not flying at us are not a security threat - so we don't just have some global system to keep track of rogue planes. Each country looks for some unidentified aircraft entering its territory, scrambles jets if they have them, and tries to determine who it is. If that isn't possible, it gets shot down, although because we're not at war a lot of countries would probably be hesitant to assume its an enemy and risk killing civilians. The U.S. obviously has a history of recent conflict and would probably shoot a plane like that down. I don't know if every place would, especially if it wasn't zooming towards a city.

    I think the reason this hasn't been made clear is because no one talking about this seems to really grasp the different technologies and is shocked by things that the investigators see as totally normal. They aren't shocked by the fact that a plane can avoid detection or a transponder can be turned off - but they want to know why. The stuff we see as suspicious v. what they do is probably largely different. Most people aren't trying to analyze the ACARs stuff outside Websleuths because they don't know about it and conflate all tracking processes, as does the media. So Malaysia gives out basic information about what data they have and when they lost contact, but it isn't going to give a full analysis as to how the tracking systems differ and all that. It's too technical, and they'd have to get aviation investigators to talk, which isn't really their style. The report will go into detail if this ever resolves.

    I'm sure CNN could get an expert to explain this, but it seems to have little interest in lengthy accurate explanations that don't lead to clear, alarming conclusions.
     
  10. Gerontion

    Gerontion Registered User

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    Whether the remains will be seen, remains to be seen. Yes, they will do their utmost during the search from the surface to narrow down the subsurface search area. "It's all in the preparation". While I await visual confirmation, my imagination runs wild and free. I contemplate iceburgs, windshear, and spontaneously combusting mangosteens. I imagine a sea-shuttle using a robotic arm to extricate an FDR from bent and mangled metal.....
     
  11. time

    time New Member

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    Uhm... am I the only one that finds this a bit ludicrous, to compare the amount spent in Syria, Libya, or Iraq to the missing plane search costs? What on earth is he comparing and why is he acting like other countries expenditures are expected whatever the cost?
     
  12. Elley Mae

    Elley Mae The enemy is here. beware

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    I see someone is paying attention.
     
  13. Gerontion

    Gerontion Registered User

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    Lawstudent,
    That's good stuff. I have not qualified myself to speak to the veracity of your information, but it works for me. I wonder if China gets billed for "roaming" charges?
    Fancy cars today use a key that is actually a transponder. Everytime that key is inserted into the ignition it sends an identifying code. Moreover, the code is a "rolling code" and the transponder in the key and the receiver in the ignition change that code every single time that key/transponder is used. I believe there may even be garage door openers that do the same thing. This resetting of the ID code happens seemlessly and automatically. But a pilot has to reset a transponder code manually?
    Fancy cars today also have GPS. For the most part this is used simply for an onboard display that can show you your location on a map screen. For a fee, there is an additional service (such as OnStar) that adds them knowing where you are. That service includes such features as the car sending an automated distress to the service if the vehicle is in an accident that involves airbag deployment. Or, the operator of the vehicle can choose to initiate communication with the service by simply hitting an SOS button in the ceiling. And yes, that service can in fact communicate with your car and unlock the doors.

    Ummm..... Perhaps more later.....When I can remember what my point was......
     
  14. Gerontion

    Gerontion Registered User

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    Now I remember what my point was going to be. It would appear that the case of the missing MH370 could potentially lead to nothing less than the complete breakdown and repair of the Airline Industry.
     
  15. Momoffourboys

    Momoffourboys Well-Known Member

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    • Flight 370's pilot, Capt. Zaharie Ahmad Shah, was the last person on the jet to speak to air-traffic controllers, telling them "Good night, Malaysian three-seven-zero," Malaysian sources told CNN. The sources said there was nothing unusual about his voice, which betrayed no indication that he was under stress. One of the sources, an official involved in the investigation, told CNN that police played the recording to five other Malaysia Airlines pilots who knew the pilot and co-pilot. "There were no third-party voices," the source said.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


    BBM

    But did they hear the co-pilot? Was the Captain alone in the cockpit? That would be a big indicator. I think.

    So, back to the Captain. Again.
     
  16. TheCrankyChef

    TheCrankyChef Well-Known Member

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    Some new "facts" are revealed according to this report: http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    If there were two large storms in the area, the search & rescue probably didn't even know were to look until quite a while after. The storms might explain why there was so much ocean garbage spotted as the waters were churning everything and anything around.
     
  17. time

    time New Member

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    Why am I feeling like calling BS on everything they are saying!

    "Malaysian air force search aircraft were scrambled about 8 a.m."

    Huh?

    Where were they scrambling to????
     
  18. Nymeria

    Nymeria Active Member

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    *BBM*
    OK, that made me :giggle:
    I had a flash of the plane traveling along some highway in disguise...kind of looking like the Air Israel Jet in "Airplane!"!

    [​IMG]


    On another note, does anyone think they will ever really have answers about this plane?
    After seeing how deep it possibly is and knowing they will only be able to bring up the black box, maybe some other small items....I just don't have much hope that this mystery is going to be solved in my lifetime.
     
  19. Momoffourboys

    Momoffourboys Well-Known Member

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    Bingo! I say much of the info coming out of Malaysia is just that.

    I think Cariis said it best.."the only thing they were scrambling is eggs":floorlaugh:

    I can only imagine what else is yet to be revealed. Or not.
     
  20. pocoloco

    pocoloco New Member

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    Nymeria

    that pic was too funny lol
     
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