Manorville Butcher ** ONLY **

[truthspider]

No comment to the first part, anyone can read the posts before.

On the second part, how do I know, the cuts were made post-mortem:
If you cut a living person, said person feels pain. This leads too muscle reaction, which means, the cuts deviate in the direction of the muscle tension. No such deviation in the photos. Ergo, the victim was already dead.

Can you point me in the direction of the straight line in the attached image?
I am having a hard time finding the straight line. Also, what if the victim was unconscious, sedated, or anesthetized? Couldn't you then cut them without muscle reaction? How do tattoo artists draw straight lines with their needle on living customers? (I actually don't know the answer to this)

 

[Peter Brendt]

Can you point me in the direction of the straight line in the attached image?

Great, now I have to find a graphic program to paint lines in the pic and I am so untalented with those things.
But if you look at the outer right, you see the cut starts with a round shape (entry point of the blade) and goes straight down and to the right.
Parallel and to the left of it to it, you see another cut, also going straight from the start point down and right in the pic.
The next pattern are three overlapping cuts, each of them straight but short except for #5, which shows in about the middle a little folding up of skin (I am not sure, whether this is from the original cut or from the puzzel work, the ME did here).
#6 and #7 are both to the left of the group #3-#5. Both are straight cuts, but #7 is more in a downward-left direction. which indicates, the killer sat a little too near.
Under #7, you see #8 and #9 in a perpendicular pattern. Interesting in it is, #8 runs also perpendicular to the skin tension, so with any kind of muscle tension, this one would be gaping. #8 is so straight, you can lay a ruler at it.
And so it goes on and on. I hope that helps.

I am having a hard time finding the straight line.

Again, start on the right side of the pic. Or wait, till I found a graphic program and I find a way to paint it in the photo with some kind of bright neon color for you.

Also, what if the victim was unconscious, sedated, or anesthetized? Couldn't you then cut them without muscle reaction? How do tattoo artists draw straight lines with their needle on living customers? (I actually don't know the answer to this)

Tattoo artists needle ink in the skin layers. So two effects come to bear for them:
a.) They can correct the straight line while under way, which is impossible with a blade.
b.) Tattoos are not so deep as those cuts, so the pain is a lot less.

Normal unconsciousness wouldn't be enough to prevent "hard-wired" muscle tension. The problem here is the reflex wiring of the nerves. You can suppress, what runs via your brain, but you can't prevent what goes through the nerve shortcut via your spine. And if someone could help me out with the correct English terms for that, I would appreciate it.
Sedating would only knock out conscious reactions, not unconscious. So you would need full scale full anesthetics at least. Which would mean, at least a permanent drip and knowledge how to use it.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

I know those XOXOXO things as "hugs and kisses". But different subcultures, maybe different meaning.
No idea whether there was a tree ... but the link to the similar practice would be interesting anyway.

This mother/daughter duo seems to indicate, he snatched the mother, who is otherwise consistent with his other victims in her private environment. Not much chances, a prostitute brings her baby to business, I think.

quote... but the link to the similar practice would be interesting anyway...End of quote.

If you have entertain the idea it could be some kind of ritual killings.
Than the first link you should find somewhat interesting. Its wayyy outside the box. And I don't think I would have posted for anyone else but you. Since you have studied the case and you have credentials. Just wanted you to look at it and see if anything here reminds you of what you have learned so far. Thank you for looking at it.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general1155.html​

On March 14, 1986, Fairfield police consulted experts before determining that a body of a suffocated newborn baby found lying on blue-and-white cloths placed atop burlap at Lake Mohegan was being given a Santeria funeral.
The burlap, representing poverty, was pinned with crosses bearing the image of St. Lazarus, the patron saint of the poor. Scattered around the body were coins and pieces of fruit. Experts told police the baby's body was placed near water because African slaves were brought here by boat and near trees because trees symbolize life.


In Reggae

http://niceup.com/patois.html
BABYLON : 1. the corrupt establishment, the "system," Church and State 2. the police, a policeman (1)

BALD-HEAD : a straight person; one without dreadlocks; one who works for babylon (2)
CROCUS BAG : a very large sack made of coarse cloth, like burlap (10)

http://www.rickross.com/reference/ge...neral1155.html​

The burlap, representing poverty, was pinned with crosses bearing the image of St. Lazarus, the patron saint of the poor. Scattered around the body were coins and pieces of fruit. Experts told police the baby's body was placed near water because African slaves were brought here by boat and near trees because trees symbolize life. __________________

 

[Peter Brendt]

quote... but the link to the similar practice would be interesting anyway...End of quote.

If you have entertain the idea it could be some kind of ritual killings.
Than the first link you should find somewhat interesting. Its wayyy outside the box. And I don't think I would have posted for anyone else but you. Since you have studied the case and you have credentials. Just wanted you to look at it and see if anything here reminds you of what you have learned so far. Thank you for looking at it.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general1155.html​

On March 14, 1986, Fairfield police consulted experts before determining that a body of a suffocated newborn baby found lying on blue-and-white cloths placed atop burlap at Lake Mohegan was being given a Santeria funeral.
The burlap, representing poverty, was pinned with crosses bearing the image of St. Lazarus, the patron saint of the poor. Scattered around the body were coins and pieces of fruit. Experts told police the baby's body was placed near water because African slaves were brought here by boat and near trees because trees symbolize life.


In Reggae

http://niceup.com/patois.html
BABYLON : 1. the corrupt establishment, the "system," Church and State 2. the police, a policeman (1)

BALD-HEAD : a straight person; one without dreadlocks; one who works for babylon (2)
CROCUS BAG : a very large sack made of coarse cloth, like burlap (10)

http://www.rickross.com/reference/ge...neral1155.html​

The burlap, representing poverty, was pinned with crosses bearing the image of St. Lazarus, the patron saint of the poor. Scattered around the body were coins and pieces of fruit. Experts told police the baby's body was placed near water because African slaves were brought here by boat and near trees because trees symbolize life. __________________

Interesting idea and nice links. Normally around any kind of religious/magic kill site, as far as it goes with SKs, you find a lot of candles, maybe flowers (depending on religion), pieces of fruits, corn, or also crops. So all stuff, which would have been long disappeared at the time, LE found the body, with the exception of candles.
Another way to determine something like that would be to see the blanket. Normally, it would be adorned with saints or religious symbols in case of a religious ritual. But since LE didn't show us the blanket, I can't say.
So I am in a pinch here. That toddler couldn't have survived too long without mother and if the toddler would have been killed long before the mother, the mother would have run to the police. So, logically, they died about the same time. Which makes the mother one victim in a series with a very clear signature. From the behavioral side, I wouldn't say, this killer is religious delusional, at least not in the primary diagnosis, but due to lack of evidence for or against, I can't exclude, he felt ashamed of killing a little child and therefore did some kind of ritual there as a compensation attempt. Which would, if the police would show us that blanket for example, tell us something about the killer.

 

[Just K]

After copying the tattoo on JT and opening it in a photo program...changing the resolution, shading, etc., the cuts do not seem random and almost appear to be a written message. Hard to determine but it looks like, starting at the top of the feathers, it says something like, "S or 'J" I CAN! (then just to the right) the number ...1964 and under that more words.

Maybe someone who is really good at photo work could do a better job.

 

[Peter Brendt]

After copying the tattoo on JT and opening it in a photo program...changing the resolution, shading, etc., the cuts do not seem random and almost appear to be a written message. Hard to determine but it looks like, starting at the top of the feathers, it says something like, "S or 'J" I CAN! (then just to the right) the number ...1964 and under that more words.

Maybe someone who is really good at photo work could do a better job.

I still try to figure out, how to paint red lines in those pics to make the cuts better visible, I'm talking about. If you figure out how, let me know please. I'm so lousy when it comes to picture work and the guy who does my covers is of course in vacation when I need him (he is anyway a bit shy with pictures of dead people, I found out).

 

[Just K]

I still try to figure out, how to paint red lines in those pics to make the cuts better visible, I'm talking about. If you figure out how, let me know please. I'm so lousy when it comes to picture work and the guy who does my covers is of course in vacation when I need him (he is anyway a bit shy with pictures of dead people, I found out).

Open the picture in Microsoft Paint...there are different tools like a line, a brush, oval, circle etc. you just have to play around with the different tools and then save the edited version as "save as" title.

 

[nugzter]

The killer of JT is a Right hander.
Ok this is a very bad quality pic, but compare it to the original and I think you will see what I see. So bare with me....
1. Take into consideration that when we read, we read left to right. So if the wing faceing down is left with Remys Angel at the top of the wing as pictured going left to right. (Green Writing) LE took the photo, why would they release it in an angle different from the angle we would see it in everyday life.
2. Like I said above, we read going from left to right. When I erase something with a pencil, I start erasing from left to right. The same way I wrote it. I put my hand up to the screen and acted like I was scratching the picture. Instinctively, I started at the left and went to right. Starting at the top and scratching downward.
You will notice how the ink also runs from up to down. Up being darker and fading into less darker ink. As if pulling the ink downward.
Notice how the ink gets darker going from left to right. (ORANGE OUTLINE)
Now look at the (YELLOW BOX) Look at the size and width of the ink blotch. Now look at the wing on the left. About the same size. Lots of ink covering a larger amount of space as the writing would. I suggest there was another set of wings.
3. In the (BLUE CIRCLE) there is a pattern. If the top is the starting point and you want to scratch down in a "natural" crescent movement, the tool you are scratching with will get some drag while cutting thru skin. If you have ever skinned an animal you know what I mean. Now notice (RED DASHED LINES) how the top, or starting point is crescent shaped going down and flattening out at the bottom.
Now notice the scratching pattern on the far right side. There are some scratches that run from left to right. Not many but very noticeable. These would be indicative of him switching hands because he was tired and was at the end where the wings may have been, or possibly finishing scratching off a bit he may had missed or deemed still noticeable. Who knows?
Summary:
So if the scratching starts from left to right with single individual strokes starting from top to bottom. There is for sure and indication the Perp is right handed.
This is just a theory and my feeble attempt to play detective for an hour while I'm at work.

 

[PickleChris]

can someone link me to a decent resolution pic?

 

[Justiceforever]

Does anyone think jt's tatoo has any signifigence to the killer or was slashing it part of his feeble attempts to hide her idenity? Also does anyone know what "Remy's Angel" meant to JT? Who is Remy?

 

[genericwhitemale]

Does anyone think jt's tatoo has any signifigence to the killer or was slashing it part of his feeble attempts to hide her idenity? Also does anyone know what "Remy's Angel" meant to JT? Who is Remy?

Remy was her pimp. He's a lowlife from Brooklyn with quite a rapsheet. I think the killer was simply trying to delay the inevitable, personally. If he really wanted that tattoo removed he would have cut that whole chunk of flesh out, and not simply scratched at it over and over again trying to make it illegible to others.

 

[fred&edna]

Does anyone think jt's tatoo has any signifigence to the killer or was slashing it part of his feeble attempts to hide her idenity? Also does anyone know what "Remy's Angel" meant to JT? Who is Remy?

One of the few things I've gotten right around here (and that was with a lead from another WS'er)!

http://www.myspace.com/remired69

 

[Peter Brendt]

Remy was her pimp. He's a lowlife from Brooklyn with quite a rapsheet. I think the killer was simply trying to delay the inevitable, personally. If he really wanted that tattoo removed he would have cut that whole chunk of flesh out, and not simply scratched at it over and over again trying to make it illegible to others.

If he really wanted ... exactly! So he didn't. Which make the cuts through the tattoo a statement. This wasn't to delay identification. Why would he care? There is no connection between her identity and his in the first place. But by mutilating the ownership-tattoo of Remy, he took ownership of his victim, and that's his statement.

 

[Just K]

I wish LE would release a picture of the intact tattoo. I am 99% sure that one of the LE agencies that arrested her has a photo ID of her tattoos and identifying marks.

 

[nugzter]

I wish LE would release a picture of the intact tattoo. I am 99% sure that one of the LE agencies that arrested her has a photo ID of her tattoos and identifying marks.

Right on. I thought it was common practice when a person is arrested that all tattoos, brandings and piercings (not intim) were also photographed. I know for sure it is so with gang members in some areas.
What strikes me as strange is why did th killer leave the wing alone. And if there were two wings, one on each side, why the left wing? I think PB is correct that it has some sort of meaning to him to take possession of the victim. So if that is the case, why the one wing left untouched. He could have just scratched out REMY. Or Angel. Or just the wing(s). He was obviously alone with the body for a good amount of time, he had to dismember it. But to take the time to scratch out part of the tattoo, man, he must have felt safe where ever he did it. It must have meant something for him. A ploy to throw off the investigation? Is he saying something? If we had the original tattoo photo, we could make some sort of determination.

 

[BKS]

Why destroy the tattoo?

1.Someone saw the SK and Jessica together and the SK wanted to hide JT's tattoo in order to further hide identification of her body.

2. This was a revenge killing and destroying the tattoo was to send a message to "Remy". That is also why he left her torso out in the open to be easily discovered.

3. The angel tattoo made the killer angry and he couldn't control himself.

4. The SK was trying to confuse police. He knew that destroying the tattoo would make it seem like a revenge killing. He further tried to confuse police by leaving her torso out in the open.

 

[genericwhitemale]

Why destroy the tattoo?

1.Someone saw the SK and Jessica together and the SK wanted to hide JT's tattoo in order to further hide identification of her body.

2. This was a revenge killing and destroying the tattoo was to send a message to "Remy". That is also why he left her torso out in the open to be easily discovered.

3. The angel tattoo made the killer angry and he couldn't control himself.

4. The SK was trying to confuse police. He knew that destroying the tattoo would make it seem like a revenge killing. He further tried to confuse police by leaving her torso out in the open.

Great thought, dude. I hadn't considered maybe they had been seen together. But that tattoo was on her lower back. I suppose she could have been wearing something skimpy. In fact, she probably was. But what could have she been wearing that would have revealed a tat on the lower back that someone else would have been able to see? I like the direction you're going with this though.

 

[BKS]

Great thought, dude. I hadn't considered maybe they had been seen together. But that tattoo was on her lower back. I suppose she could have been wearing something skimpy. In fact, she probably was. But what could have she been wearing that would have revealed a tat on the lower back that someone else would have been able to see? I like the direction you're going with this though.

In an effort to conceal the woman's identity, the killer had eliminated the most notable means of identification -- her fingerprints and dental records. However, one crucial clue was overlooked. Police hoped a partially mutilated tattoo found just above the woman's right hip would lead to her identity [FONT=&quot]and [/FONT]the killer.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=45219

 

[nugzter]

In an effort to conceal the woman's identity, the killer had eliminated the most notable means of identification -- her fingerprints and dental records. However, one crucial clue was overlooked. Police hoped a partially mutilated tattoo found just above the woman's right hip would lead to her identity [FONT=&quot]and [/FONT]the killer.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=45219

Then why not all of it? He did 3/4 of the tattoo, why not go all the way? Eliminate ALL the ID'ing marks.

 

[genericwhitemale]

In an effort to conceal the woman's identity, the killer had eliminated the most notable means of identification -- her fingerprints and dental records. However, one crucial clue was overlooked. Police hoped a partially mutilated tattoo found just above the woman's right hip would lead to her identity [FONT=&quot]and [/FONT]the killer.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=45219

Ah yes, the hip. My mistake. I was thinking the kidney region (side of the lower back above the hip).