MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #3 *INDICTMENT*

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Greater Than

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I guess if the Officers yelled "stop police" that would qualify for them trying to detain him. Maybe they never did. I don't know myself.

They never made any such claim in the arrest report, so we should assume they never did. In fact, as has been stated, LE wrote he was arrested "without incident."

So can we put the invented crimes of resisting arrest and obstruction to bed now?
 

Ausgirl

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Again, I'm reviewing the videos, feel free to scroll and roll if it's old news.

I'm just trying to make sense of the movements of everyone at the time of the arrest, going on what cctv there is available (BPD has pulled at least one cctv vid from the youtube list, which is a bother, I'm sure that's the one I saw earlier and wanted to discuss... owel).

From what I can tell, Gray ran up the street (away from the corner where most of the video is taken) -- he must then run around the corner at the other end of the street? And then we see him in another video taken from another angle entering a building -- almost diagonally opposite on the block from the corner where the bikes are parked?

We can see him going into the building (if it's indeed him, I think it is) - do we see him coming out at all?

As there's one bike cop wheeling the bikes toward the little wall thing, we can see there's no-one there yet (and won't be, for 50+ more seconds). So I'm wondering...

Exactly *where* Gray was apprehended, and by whom?
How'd they get him to that corner where the bikes are already parked?
Why'd the cops move him (still on his belly, as far as I can see) from the bigger wall over to the bikes?
Did they lift, drag or walk him there?
Is there a patrol car parked opposite from where the bikes are being parked, prior to Gray appearing on the corner?
Where's the cops from that car? What were they doing?
And why'd that patrol car swerve over onto the wrong side of the road? Why didn't either patrol car stop? Or did they?

So many questions.
 

RANCH

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They never made any such claim in the arrest report, so we should assume they never did. In fact, as has been stated, LE wrote he was arrested "without incident."

So can we put the invented crimes of resisting arrest and obstruction to bed now?

They could have said in the arrest report that they yelled for Gray to stop but they chose not to. Whether it happened or not I'm not sure. That still means that the arresting Officers didn't charge Gray with more crimes than they could have.

I'm saying that the Officers may have undercharged Gray, not that Gray actually committed the crime of interfering. I'm giving my opinion and speculating not inventing crimes.

JMO.
 

Sillybilly

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Very disappointing to see some of the disrespect towards other members in this thread. Cut the snark or there will be consequences.
 

katydid23

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Please do not take my post out of context and then shout at me with caps. I was responding to a poster that alleged FG could have been charged with evading arrest and obstruction of justice. That is a false allegation. That's all my point was...nothing more, nothing less. Good grief.

Sorry if it seemed I was shouting. I used CAPS twice for emphasis. Not for shouting purposes. :wave:
 

RANCH

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Let me try and make my point more clear.

I looked up a Maryland statute that I feel the arresting officers could have used when arresting Freddie Gray. I was merely wondering why they didn't use it against Gray. If they wanted to make Gray look as bad as possible you would think that the officers would bring every possible charge against him.

But they didn't. And I think that has a bearing on what these officers mindset was when this arrest was made.

JMO
 

octobermoon

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Let me try and make my point more clear.

I looked up a Maryland statute that I feel the arresting officers could have used when arresting Freddie Gray. I was merely wondering why they didn't use it against Gray. If they wanted to make Gray look as bad as possible you would think that the officers would bring every possible charge against him.

But they didn't. And I think that has a bearing on what these officers mindset was when this arrest was made.

JMO

I get what you are saying but they knew it was on video. Not like cases where officer says guy went for gun and tape shows he didn't. Trumping up or piling on charges wouldn't look good. I am not saying this well. Long day. HYKWIM
 

Ausgirl

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As far as giving a fake number, we don't know if it was intentional or not.

According to the cops he was speaking to, he refused to give them his name, and then gave the wrong number -- and when they tracked down the right number and called it, he asked "How'd you get this number?"

So my bet is, it was intentional. The other cops were annoyed enough with his behaviour that they made a formal complaint, which put him under official review.

Also, I'm pretty sure custody concerns are best raised in family court.. as opposed to pulling a gun on people, breaking & entering their home, etc.

With the amount of horrendous domestic violence cases we see, I for the life of me cannot understand anyone trying to justify the behaviour of a man who threatened to kill his ex, then himself. Nothing to do with the new hubby or the child, there. Also, the sexually explicit texts he sent his ex... how's that reflecting his concern for his child?

The man was behaving IMO exactly as many family annihilators do.... right before they commit murder/suicide. The threat of which is what he was hospitalised for.

I'm horrified this man was still a cop.
 

RANCH

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I get what you are saying but they knew it was on video. Not like cases where officer says guy went for gun and tape shows he didn't. Trumping up or piling on charges wouldn't look good. I am not saying this well. Long day. HYKWIM

The whole bike/foot chase was on video with audio? The officers could have yelled "stop police" or maybe they didn't. I'm sure they could have claimed that they did but apparently they didn't. JMO.
 

octobermoon

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The whole bike/foot chase was on video with audio? The officers could have yelled "stop police" or maybe they didn't. I'm sure they could have claimed that they did but apparently they didn't. JMO.

I assume at the time they wrote their report they had no idea if there was audio or not. Plus they had to know about those CCTV cameras on buildings in the area. And there was always a possibility other people were filming too. Not arguing with you, just a guess on my part.

:)
 

ohreally

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According to the cops he was speaking to, he refused to give them his name, and then gave the wrong number -- and when they tracked down the right number and called it, he asked "How'd you get this number?"

So my bet is, it was intentional. The other cops were annoyed enough with his behaviour that they made a formal complaint, which put him under official review.

Also, I'm pretty sure custody concerns are best raised in family court.. as opposed to pulling a gun on people, breaking & entering their home, etc.

With the amount of horrendous domestic violence cases we see, I for the life of me cannot understand anyone trying to justify the behaviour of a man who threatened to kill his ex, then himself. Nothing to do with the new hubby or the child, there. Also, the sexually explicit texts he sent his ex... how's that reflecting his concern for his child?

The man was behaving IMO exactly as many family annihilators do.... right before they commit murder/suicide. The threat of which is what he was hospitalised for.

I'm horrified this man was still a cop.
I stand corrected on the phone number. For some reason I thought it was only one digit off. I thought that might be just an error. You are right by what you posted above it's fishy when he asked how did you get my number.
I don't know if he should be on the force or not. I do agree that he was way out of line several years ago, and could of possibly truly been suicidal/homicidal. Since he was committed for mental health, I would think the psych doctors would of had to clear him to be able to go back to work as a police officer.
There is nothing in Lt. Rice's actions on the day Freddie Gray died that leads me to believe that his family issues effected his professional actions.
 

katydid23

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According to the cops he was speaking to, he refused to give them his name, and then gave the wrong number -- and when they tracked down the right number and called it, he asked "How'd you get this number?"

So my bet is, it was intentional. The other cops were annoyed enough with his behaviour that they made a formal complaint, which put him under official review.

Also, I'm pretty sure custody concerns are best raised in family court.. as opposed to pulling a gun on people, breaking & entering their home, etc.

With the amount of horrendous domestic violence cases we see, I for the life of me cannot understand anyone trying to justify the behaviour of a man who threatened to kill his ex, then himself. Nothing to do with the new hubby or the child, there. Also, the sexually explicit texts he sent his ex... how's that reflecting his concern for his child?

The man was behaving IMO exactly as many family annihilators do.... right before they commit murder/suicide. The threat of which is what he was hospitalised for.

I'm horrified this man was still a cop.

Therer is another side to it. The man he was beefing with had a Restraining Order taken out against him by Rice's ex wife. His 4 yr old son was in that home. He was making a great effort to PROTECT HIS SON. Until I know more about his side of the story, I will back off.
 

RANCH

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I assume at the time they wrote their report they had no idea if there was audio or not. Plus they had to know about those CCTV cameras on buildings in the area. And there was always a possibility other people were filming too. Not arguing with you, just a guess on my part.

:)

I just kind of assume that even if these are bad cops they would at least yell "stop" at some point in the chase. They obviously weren't planing on running an endurance race to see who was the best runner. And Freddie had to know they were cops.

Why would they not yell "stop"?
 

K_Z

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It's with the court. The prosecutor can voluntarily recuse herself which she apparently won't do. Prosecutors have special duties under the Professional Responsibility rules. But a court can also order the "recusal" by dismissing/disqualifying her and her office on the basis of a proven conflict.

Remember there were calls for recusal in the Michael Brown case. Since there was no judicial case, it was up to the prosecutor to follow the ethics rules and determine whether recusal was warranted. (There was also some procedural rule there where the Governor could order a special prosecutor but that is not relevant to recusal.

I did not see any convincing evidence for recusal in the Michael Brown case. The alleged "conflicts" seemed to be he worked with the police for a long time (of course, as he was a consistently re-elected prosecutor) and that his father was a police officer killed by a black man, many years ago, maybe 40? These are pretty flimsy reasons for recusal. The current case with Mosby is very different and I do think an ethical prosecutor should have recused herself in this case. Ethical elected officials should be careful to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. She is a prosecutor but also essentially an elected official.

I haven't yet had a chance to read the Motion but I assume they use the Professional Responsibility rules and are asking the judge to find a conflict under those rules and order the prosecutor to be disqualified under those rules. There may also be Maryland case law that is on point.

The court will not specify who should prosecute. The city, or whoever is authorized under city procedural rules, would need to appoint someone to prosecute. It doesn't become a state case because of this and the state does not oversee local prosecutors or exercise authority over them. I think there may be confusion because Baltimore calls their prosecutor the Baltimore City State's Attorney. Where I live the Prosecutors are called District Attorneys. The "state" attorney as in state of Maryland is the state Attorney General. But Mosby is just the elected prosecutor for the city of Baltimore.

I did find an interesting older (2006) fairly plain English article http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2543&context=llr

CAVEAT: as always, please not I am NOT a criminal attorney!

BBM. Thanks so much for this opinion and interpretation. I do have to say the title of "Baltimore City State's Attorney" is QUITE confusing, which is why I was having so much confusion about whether or not the State AG had some part in this.

So, it's now up to a Baltimore judge. Any ideas how soon this motion might be acted upon? Is there even a judge assigned to the case yet?

Boytwnmom-- can you also comment, if/ when you have time, on the issues involved with potentially severing all six of the cases, versus all six being tried together? I'm really confused about how that may shake out, and the procedures involved. The charges are all so different, that it seems logical that each defendant could/ should petition to be severed, but IDK what the law says about this.

Thanks very much for your input, opinion, and expertise!

Edited to add: Forgot to add, the article you linked is EXCELLENT at outlining difficulties confronted by prosecutors in high profile cases. I highly recommend reading it to any interested. A real eye opener. Prosecutor Mosby seems to have succumbed to many of the prosecutorial pitfalls and conflicts of interest outlined the article, IMO.
 

al66pine

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BBM. Thanks so much for this opinion and interpretation. I do have to say the title of "Baltimore City State's Attorney" is QUITE confusing, which is why I was having so much confusion about whether or not the State AG had some part in this.
....
bbm sbm

re^bbm:
Yes very confusing, so maybe this will help, w rbm, some bbm. Or not.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore#Government

"Government
Baltimore is an independent city, and not part of any county. For most governmental purposes under Maryland law, Baltimore City is treated as a county-level entity. The United States Census Bureau uses counties as the basic unit for presentation of statistical information in the United States, and treats Baltimore as a county equivalent for those purposes.
Baltimore has been a Democratic stronghold for over 150 years, with Democrats dominating every level of government. In virtually all elections, the Democratic primary is the real contest.[SUP][162][/SUP] ...." ____________________________________________________________

^Interesting: City of St. Louis, MO is not part of a county, is similar, ~ a county equivalent.
Some historical glitches & obscure political compromises re balance of power explains it re StL.
A bit OT: Ferguson (of Michael Brown fame) is a municipality in St. Louis County.
 

katydid23

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I just kind of assume that even if these are bad cops they would at least yell "stop" at some point in the chase. They obviously weren't planing on running an endurance race to see who was the best runner. And Freddie had to know they were cops.

Why would they not yell "stop"?
They ALWAYS yell STOP! Hasn't anyone ever watched COPS? Has anyone ever seen a chase where the cop was not yelling at the suspect to stop or freeze or get down?
 

KEVINinTO

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I don't know if this has been posted yet (just getting on here) but it looks like the SA has been caught in a lie.

We discovered from the motion to dismiss submitted by the attorney's for the six defendants that FG family attorney "Billy" Murphy Jr represented Mosby in a legal proceeding last fall.

According to this report in the Baltimore SUN they had asked Mosby (prior to the motion being released yesterday) if Murphy ever represented her as an attorney to which she replied "never"

Mosby told The Sun last week that Murphy never represented her.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...-motion-to-dismiss-20150508-story.html#page=2

Yesterday Wolf Blitzer posed the same question to Billy Murphy :

BLITZER: So did you represent her in some sort of legal matter?

MURPHY: I have no present recollection of doing that. But I’m going to look. And if it’s the case, I’ll have to address it.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1505/08/sitroom.02.html
 

katydid23

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I don't know if this has been posted yet (just getting on here) but it looks like the SA has been caught in a lie.

We discovered from the motion to dismiss submitted by the attorney's for the six defendants that FG family attorney "Billy" Murphy Jr represented Mosby in a legal proceeding last fall.

According to this report in the Baltimore SUN they had asked Mosby (prior to the motion being released yesterday) if Murphy ever represented her as an attorney to which she replied "never"



http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...-motion-to-dismiss-20150508-story.html#page=2

Yesterday Wolf Blitzer posed the same question to Billy Murphy :



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1505/08/sitroom.02.html

AND from what I understand, he did represent her in an ethics complaint, I will try and find those links. brb


http://www.scribd.com/doc/264688411/Baltimore-Police-Motion-for-SA-Recusal
In addition as shown in Exhibit #7 (pdf page 107) Mr. Murphy was actually Marilyn Mosby’s attorney in 2014 for complaint lodged with the Attorney Grievance Commission of Maryland.
 

Ausgirl

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Therer is another side to it. The man he was beefing with had a Restraining Order taken out against him by Rice's ex wife. His 4 yr old son was in that home. He was making a great effort to PROTECT HIS SON. Until I know more about his side of the story, I will back off.

I don't mean to make an argument of it but just FYI, if you missed it -- the police told Rice the order had "nothing to do with violence" and was none of his business.
 
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