CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[cujenn81]

I don't think that Hae was sexually assaulted. When her body was found, she was still wearing panty hose. Panty hose is difficult enough to put on oneself, when alive. I don't see a murderer replacing panty hose on someone's body, and we know that if she was raped, it wasn't when she was conscious/alive. No defensive wounds.


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Good point about the panty hose. I always hated struggling to get those damn things on back in the day.

OT/Do people still wear pantyhose, by the way?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I don't think that Hae was sexually assaulted. When her body was found, she was still wearing panty hose. Panty hose is difficult enough to put on oneself, when alive. I don't see a murderer replacing panty hose on someone's body, and we know that if she was raped, it wasn't when she was conscious/alive. No defensive wounds.


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The weird thing about the pantyhose, and the rest of her clothes for that matter, is that the lividity doesn't show any clothing lines, except for a possible zig zag type mark on her lower abdomen that could have been from the stitching being bunched up. I've seen more lividity pics than I ever wanted to while studying this, and most of them show clothing lines in an obvious way, including bra outlines and waistbands.

It almost seems like she was re-dressed, but I agree that most killers are not going to take the time to do that, especially with pantyhose. It's just more pieces that don't make sense!

 

[missy_g]

Supposedly because Adnan felt bad that Jay had not bought Stephanie (his girlfriend and a good friend of Adnan) a birthday present (her birthday was on the 13th). So it was a goodwill gesture so that Stephanie would actually get a gift from Jay.
I read somewhere, or maybe it was on Undisclosed, that Adnan did not give Jay permission to use the cellphone. It was just in the glovebox for safekeeping, presumably because they weren't allowed phones in school. I agree that Jay and Adnan seem more than acquaintances, but I think their 'friendship' was based around buying and smoking weed. I think they had little in common besides that.


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This makes sense. I forgot that Adnan and Stephanie were good friends.
Even still, I don't think that I would let anyone use my car. I'm older now but I might have been that naive when I was 17.
I hope to finish the podcast tonight. I might post my thoughts afterwards.


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[watergirl62]

I'm curious if anyone listened to the latest Undisclosed podcast? A lady who works with some type of prison program in OH listened to Serial with the prisoners there and then recorded their thoughts about it.

It was rather interesting. But it made me wonder who Pete/Peter is? One of them mentioned his name... someone Jay called that day but he was never interviewed or questioned by the police, or the defense. One guy thought he was involved somehow. I don't even remember hearing about anyone with that name. But, I read back over Jay's 2nd interview transcript today and he does mention someone named Pete very briefly. Do any of y'all remember him or know what the deal is there?

Just finished it. Yes, an interesting shift in perspective, to hear the incarcerated's POV, but it all came off as a little too... Kumbaya, IMO.

Peter is mentioned in Undisclosed Episode 4 (page 18) as being one of Adnan's friends.

http://undisclosed-podcast.com/docs/4/Episode%204%20–%2028%20Days%20-%20Transcript.pdf



ETA: Cujenn, I haven't worn pantyhose for years, but I am sure I still owned at least one pair in the late 1990s.

 

[Aleph]

The weird thing about the pantyhose, and the rest of her clothes for that matter, is that the lividity doesn't show any clothing lines, except for a possible zig zag type mark on her lower abdomen that could have been from the stitching being bunched up. I've seen more lividity pics than I ever wanted to while studying this, and most of them show clothing lines in an obvious way, including bra outlines and waistbands.

It almost seems like she was re-dressed, but I agree that most killers are not going to take the time to do that, especially with pantyhose. It's just more pieces that don't make sense!

The lividity lines thing does seem weird. I haven't looked at a ton of crime scene photos myself, but I believe you about clothing lines being common. It would be interesting to hear an ME's take on it.

Maybe the cold temperatures made her skin less likely to hold a finer impression? But that's pure guesswork,


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[cujenn81]

Tonight's new Undisclosed podcast... this mysterious Bilal character... WTF.

 

[greenbean]

Tonight's new Undisclosed podcast... this mysterious Bilal character... WTF.

Yeahhhhhhhh. I, ummmmmm... I just can't even process tonight's episode. It just seems REALLY "tinfoil hat" to me.

I think the cops involved were incompetent, yes, but why would the prosecutor have SUCH a raging NEED to indict and convict this kid with no prior record?

I'm at a loss. I can't really see WHY a state's attorney with so many other cases would know about his witness literally the day this guy got arrested... It's like he had a google alert set for the guy's name ...years before Google even existed.

This case makes my brain hurt.

 

[Tiger09]

Since I was in high school around the same time as Hae, Adnan, and Jay, I figured I'd clear some things up. First off, I don't live in Baltimore. Never have. I graduated in 2001. On the topic of cell phones, they were totally not allowed and would be taken away if you were caught with one. You could- at my school - get them from a general lost and found at the end of the year. The office usually took students words for if the stuff was theirs or not. I actually lost a hat once. With cell phones, you also faced detention, depending on who caught you. So, yeah, I see Adnan locking the phone in the car. We were advised to do this at our school.

Borrowing the car. I didn't drive my own vehicle in high school. All my friends drove, but they always let me and others drive their cars. It was just a thing. A stupid teenage thing. Would I do it now? No. But then it was like "Oh I don't feel like driving", "Get lunch on your free period", or even being too sick/drunk/high to drive. We never thought of consequences.

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[cujenn81]

Since I was in high school around the same time as Hae, Adnan, and Jay, I figured I'd clear some things up. First off, I don't live in Baltimore. Never have. I graduated in 2001. On the topic of cell phones, they were totally not allowed and would be taken away if you were caught with one. You could- at my school - get them from a general lost and found at the end of the year. The office usually took students words for if the stuff was theirs or not. I actually lost a hat once. With cell phones, you also faced detention, depending on who caught you. So, yeah, I see Adnan locking the phone in the car. We were advised to do this at our school.

Borrowing the car. I didn't drive my own vehicle in high school. All my friends drove, but they always let me and others drive their cars. It was just a thing. A stupid teenage thing. Would I do it now? No. But then it was like "Oh I don't feel like driving", "Get lunch on your free period", or even being too sick/drunk/high to drive. We never thought of consequences.

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I agree with every bit of this.

I graduated from a high school in SC in 1999---the same year that Hae was murdered. Cell phones were strictly forbidden at school and very few people even had one. I didn't get my first phone until I was a sophomore or junior in college. (We didn't even call them cell phones back then. They were "mobile phones" or "cellular phones".) I did have a pager, though. I remember stopping at pay phones to call people back all the time, and nearly every business had one---gas stations, malls, movie theaters.

Pagers were also forbidden in school, and I never risked getting caught with mine because the teacher would take it from you and you didn't get it back until the END OF THE SEMESTER. Students and parents didn't scream accusations of mistreatment or accuse administrations of prejudicial treatment like they do now. It wouldn't make much difference even if they did.

Schools weren't concerned about being PC and they didn't worry about their image. If a student (or parent) tried to made a big deal out of something like a teacher taking away a cell phone, they were told "Oh well, if you don't respect or agree with our school policies, you can enroll in private school." That's just how things were back then.

I also let my friends borrow my car all the time, as well... for any reason. Everyone did; we were always driving our friends' cars.

It's funny how much things change over time. There are so many things that would be considered odd or unusual today that were extremely commonplace when I was a senior in high school.

 

[missy_g]

I graduated in 2000 and I didn't know anyone with a cell phone or anyone who let others borrow their car. I had a car at 16 and I couldn't imagine ever letting someone borrow it, even if they asked.
That's why Adnan letting Jay borrow his car is so bizarre to me, especially since they claim to only be pot buddies.
I want to add, I grew up in MD, about 60 miles from Baltimore.


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[greenbean]

I graduated in 96 and I didn't have a car or a cell phone. My friends did. They mostly drove me. I was kinda like Jay in that I was the less affluent kid hanging with kids from better homes.

I did have a pager. Remember the silly codes? Sending your boyfriend 143 for "I love you" and 411 911 to your BFF when you had gossip that was VERY IMPORTANT?

Gawd. I was SUCH a dork.

Did y'all listen to the last undisclosed? Amirite?!? BANANAS.
😳

I CANNOT WAIT TO HEAR WHAT CAPTAIN CONSPIRACY (Bob of Serial Dynasty) WILL MAKE OF IT!!! 😜👍

Oh lord above, what if Bilal also worked at LensCrafters?!?! 😂 LOL

 

[edgedweller]

I graduated in 2000 and I didn't know anyone with a cell phone or anyone who let others borrow their car. I had a car at 16 and I couldn't imagine ever letting someone borrow it, even if they asked.
That's why Adnan letting Jay borrow his car is so bizarre to me, especially since they claim to only be pot buddies.
I want to add, I grew up in MD, about 60 miles from Baltimore.


Sent By Owl

Having grown up in the UK, where the driving age is 17, and cars are not as necessary so many people don't get a car till they have a job in their 20s, this is interesting.
Was yours a nice, newish car? I can imagine Adnan's was a bit of an old banger and maybe he wasn't that worried about it?


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[cujenn81]

Having grown up in the UK, where the driving age is 17, and cars are not as necessary so many people don't get a car till they have a job in their 20s, this is interesting.
Was yours a nice, newish car? I can imagine Adnan's was a bit of an old banger and maybe he wasn't that worried about it?


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I got my first car at the start of my senior year. While it would have been considered newISH, it wasn't brand new. It had been used as a demo, so we got a good deal on it because even though it was never owned by anyone else, it already had 13,000 miles on it.

It was a gold '98 Toyota Corolla (which are fairly inexpensive cars) but because it was used as a demo, it was fully loaded---sun roof, rims instead of hubcaps, etc. I think we ended up buying it for like $12K. Man, I loved that car!

Before I got the Corolla, I drove my dad's bright blue, beat up Suzuki Samurai jeep to school. It was a stick shift and it didn't have power steering, but you could take the top off... which I loved!

 

[cujenn81]

I graduated in 96 and I didn't have a car or a cell phone. My friends did. They mostly drove me. I was kinda like Jay in that I was the less affluent kid hanging with kids from better homes.

I did have a pager. Remember the silly codes? Sending your boyfriend 143 for "I love you" and 411 911 to your BFF when you had gossip that was VERY IMPORTANT?

Gawd. I was SUCH a dork.

Did y'all listen to the last undisclosed? Amirite?!? BANANAS.
[emoji15]

I CANNOT WAIT TO HEAR WHAT CAPTAIN CONSPIRACY (Bob of Serial Dynasty) WILL MAKE OF IT!!! [emoji12][emoji106]

Oh lord above, what if Bilal also worked at LensCrafters?!?! [emoji23] LOL

[emoji23]

What a trip down memory lane... and if you were a dork, I was one too because I totalllly remember and used the 143 & 911 411 codes!

I can only IMAGINE the field day Bob Ruff is going to have with this one. And did you see his new "Truth & Justice" logo? He looks NOTHING like I pictured him. But, that always kinda turns out to be the case with all radio/podcast hosts. I pictured him way older for some reason... like 50ish. And, he kinda reminds me of Jesse Ventura. (Not looks wise, but conspiracy theory wise.) [emoji38]

 

[greenbean]

[emoji23]

What a trip down memory lane... and if you were a dork, I was one too because I totalllly remember and used the 143 & 911 411 codes!

I can only IMAGINE the field day Bob Ruff is going to have with this one. And did you see his new "Truth & Justice" logo? He looks NOTHING like I pictured him. But, that always kinda turns out to be the case with all radio/podcast hosts. I pictured him way older for some reason... like 50ish. And, he kinda reminds me of Jesse Ventura. (Not looks wise, but conspiracy theory wise.) [emoji38]

OMG I DID see him! Nice skintight Henley tee, Bob!

I'm totally going to photoshop him wearing a tinfoil hat, I don't even care.

I did like his show with the guy from Criminal Minds. It was funny to hear Bob deflating as Jim Clemente described a suspect that, well, kinda sounded like Adnan.

I still doubt very seriously that Adnan killed Hae but, I do think this case attracts some real nutters.

...myself included. 😜

 

[cujenn81]

I did like his show with the guy from Criminal Minds. It was funny to hear Bob deflating as Jim Clemente described a suspect that, well, kinda sounded like Adnan.

SBM...

I thought the same thing when I listened to it. It was so obvious he wanted Clemente to offer other possible scenarios or suspects with the "what if" questions he asked.

I looked forward to that interview for weeks before it was released because I really respect Jim Clemente. He knows his stuff.

I write a quarterly newsletter for a local non-profit organization that hired him to speak at a fundraiser earlier this year. When I researched his background to include a mini bio in their newsletter, I was thoroughly impressed.

He was sexually abused as a child at a religious-based camp, but he never told anyone about it until much later in life. After going to law school and getting a job in NY, he randomly came across several other guys who had been sexually abused by the same man. So, he decided to contact the sex crimes investigation unit within the NYCPD, who worked closely with the FBI, & they convinced him to meet with this man undercover and wear a wire. His help with the case resulted in the successful prosecution of the guy and Clemente was offered a job with the FBI soon thereafter.

He was also one of the first responders after the attack on the WTC. He was diagnosed with cancer years later, from exposure to the dust and debris, & he beat the odds.

He's just led a crazy interesting life, and that's BEFORE you include 'Writer for the hit TV show, Criminal Minds' to his life's resume.

 

[greenbean]

I'll never forgive him for criminal minds. That's the worst show on tv.

Yes, I've seen all of it.

WHEELS UP IN 30! 😜

 

[Tiss56]

Listening to Undisclosed and am blown away by the horrific police investigation and possible prosecutorial and police misconduct. All the evidence has been "lost" except for Hae's body. Including her computer! How do you lose a computer and a whiskey bottle AND a rope that could have been used in Hae's murder? Unreal. And to base a whole murder case on a pathological liar's word. Unfortunately for Hae's family I don't think the truth will ever be known thanks to the incompetence of the Baltimore police. On that note, Adnan should be released, like yesterday. The whole trial was tainted and a sham because it was based on withheld prosecution info and witnesses were coached-- those are only 2 of the many reasons why those poor jurors and Hae's family were criminally mislead.

 

[Tiss56]

Did I post on the correct thread re Undisclosed (Hae Min Lee and Adnan Syed)?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Did I post on the correct thread re Undisclosed (Hae Min Lee and Adnan Syed)?

Yes, this is the spot to discuss things related to Hae's murder. I agree with your first post about true justice being almost impossible at this point.