MD MD - Sr. Catherine Cesnik, 26, Baltimore, 7 Nov 1969 "The Keepers"

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Do we know if any of the women had regression therapy?

The above is just my opinion.
 
My issue with the way the show presented things is that it seemed to be pushing an agenda that "if the sexual abuse by Maskell was true then he committing the murders must also be true" Not only is this logically fallacious, I see no evidence that would suggest him ,especially when you consider the crime scenes themselves. Not only do the two scenes not match ,signature wise, they seem to have been done by two different types of individuals for two different reasons.

The abuse obviously took place, but guilt of one crime doth not necessitate guilt of the other, especially with zero physical evidence and flimsy speculation by over eager amateur detectives who seemed to have made the fatal error of starting with a conclusion and working backwards.
 
I'm watching this series but have to take breaks. I believe the women and am glad that this is finally being exposed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Does anyone know what route Koob and Mckewn (sp) took when they went for their walk in the middle of the night? They left Cathys apartment to go for a walk. On their return they spotted Cathy's car across the street. Seems to me this is something they would have spotted as they're leaving the apartment to go on their walk, not on their way back. Wouldn't they have spotted the car right away? Their close friend and in koobs case, lover, has been missing several hours and it is completely out of character for her to do this. You would think they would be on high alert for spotting her and her car, being just maybe 50 yards away from where it would normally be, this should be a quick find. Does anyone else find this suspicious?
I apologize in advance if this has already been covered. JMO.
 
SnoopCat said:
Does anyone know what route Koob and Mckewn (sp) took when they went for their walk in the middle of the night? They left Cathys apartment to go for a walk. On their return they spotted Cathy's car across the street. Seems to me this is something they would have spotted as they're leaving the apartment to go on their walk, not on their way back. Wouldn't they have spotted the car right away? Their close friend and in koobs case, lover, has been missing several hours and it is completely out of character for her to do this. You would think they would be on high alert for spotting her and her car, being just maybe 50 yards away from where it would normally be, this should be a quick find. Does anyone else find this suspicious?
I apologize in advance if this has already been covered. JMO.
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That's an interesting point - I've not done enough research to know if there is evidence of the route of their walk vs what time Cathy's car was first spotted back at the apartment. Maybe has been covered in the facebook group that the women run? I haven't visited that yet.
 
sunnynz said:
That's an interesting point - I've not done enough research to know if there is evidence of the route of their walk vs what time Cathy's car was first spotted back at the apartment. Maybe has been covered in the facebook group that the women run? I haven't visited that yet.
Click to expand...

I recall it being discussed by Koob in the documentary, one of the early episodes. He talked about how they walked away from the apartment for some distance, then walked back. Don't have a map so I can't tell you which direction, but it was downhill.
 
OliveEliot said:
After watching all seven episodes of the documentary series, I still don't understand why the filmmakers never even mentioned the possibility of a serial killer or random sexual predator, as several of you sleuthers note above is much more likely than a killing directly by or orchestrated by a sexual predator priest. Occam's razor is what I kept thinking of--the simplest explanation is probably the best explanation. The only relatively "simple" explanation that they do consider some is the possibility that Gerry Koob killed her, and that idea seems certainly worth considering.

I am finding it hard to understand why so many who have watched the series seem to wholeheartedly believe this far-fetched scenario put forth by the Jane Doe. I guess most people don't know how strongly the popular 1990s idea of recovered memories has been discounted over the years by ypsychologists and others. Her story of uncovering this supposedly repressed memory of being taken to see the body only after a former classmate casually talked about Sr. Cathy when they met years later feels very suspicious. I am not saying that Jane Doe doesn't believe she went through all of this--but it doesn't make sense. This is the pivot for that theory of Maskell killing Sr. Cathy to keep her quiet, and it just doesn't hold water.
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I've watched six of the seven episodes and the above post most reflects my thoughts. I don't doubt Jane Doe was abused, however I question the repressed memories and believe it's probable ideas were planted by the therapists working with her at the time.

At first I believed Koob, but now he has my hinky meter up. Two things struck me as questionable. First, the information that a detective interviewing him allegedly handed him her private part wrapped in newspaper. Not only is it far fetched, but his expression indicating how horribly this detective defiled her remains struck me as an attempt to deflect attention away from himself. It was pretty obvious he was getting more and more uncomfortable the more he talked. It was especially odd he didn't consider the detective might have tried to present him/ trick him with something other than Cathy's actual remains-but his statement was such that he believed it was 100% certainly Cathy's remains.

The other thing I found hinky was the letter she allegedly wrote him.Why would Cathy send him a typed letter when she sent her sister a handwritten letter? I don't believe Cathy wrote that letter.
 
Cubby said:
I've watched six of the seven episodes and the above post most reflects my thoughts. I don't doubt Jane Doe was abused, however I question the repressed memories and believe it's probable ideas were planted by the therapists working with her at the time.

At first I believed Koob, but now he has my hinky meter up. Two things struck me as questionable. First, the information that a detective interviewing him allegedly handed him her private part wrapped in newspaper. Not only is it far fetched, but his expression indicating how horribly this detective defiled her remains struck me as an attempt to deflect attention away from himself. It was pretty obvious he was getting more and more uncomfortable the more he talked. It was especially odd he didn't consider the detective might have tried to present him/ trick him with something other than Cathy's actual remains-but his statement was such that he believed it was 100% certainly Cathy's remains.

The other thing I found hinky was the letter she allegedly wrote him.Why would Cathy send him a typed letter when she sent her sister a handwritten letter? I don't believe Cathy wrote that letter.
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Expanding on your thoughts about the letter Cathy wrote to her sister, it was pretty shocking to learn that the Baltimore City PD no longer had it as evidence. The cold case investigator really seemed shocked when he learned that. It made me wonder just how thorough the investigation was if they hadn't sought to check the old evidence and files from the Baltimore PD. Isn't that the first thing you do in a cold case investigation - go through all the old files and evidence?

And though the documentary couldn't expand on it, how did it happen that Cathy's letter to her sister was postmarked after her death?

BTW, here's a link to a new article about The Keepers which gives great praise to the women and men who were featured. They really are a great, strong, intelligent group. Great role models.

The Role Models Of The Keepers

http://www.mtv.com/news/3020472/the-role-models-of-the-keepers/

The victims were just amazing, as were the fellow students and family who supported them all.
 
I think the cold case investigator was trying hard to bite his tongue and not say the original investigation was :censored: poor. It was very he was disgusted with how evidence was handled.

I'm a bit confused on the relevancy of the letter being postmarked on the 8th. I don't know how mail worked in 1969, but I always bring my mail to a mailbox and if I drop it off after the last pickup of the day it's postmarked the following day. I don't understand why it couldn't be possible Cathy simply mailed the letter in the evening and it was picked up the following day.

I agree the victims were and are incredibly brave for coming forward. I hope their example encourages more people with knowledge of abuse and information that could solve this case come forward.

I'd like to know if Gerry and Ed have both submitted DNA samples to be compared to that which LE in Codis? I think I recall reading up thread they do have DNA from the crime scene in a national database.

On another note, I find myself wondering why there was no blood in the car. If the perp brought it back wouldn't it make sense Cathy's blood would have been found in the car?

And for a moment I wondered if Sr. Russell might have done it.
 
Cubby said:
I think the cold case investigator was trying hard to bite his tongue and not say the original investigation was :censored: poor. It was very he was disgusted with how evidence was handled.

I'm a bit confused on the relevancy of the letter being postmarked on the 8th. I don't know how mail worked in 1969, but I always bring my mail to a mailbox and if I drop it off after the last pickup of the day it's postmarked the following day. I don't understand why it couldn't be possible Cathy simply mailed the letter in the evening and it was picked up the following day.

I agree the victims were and are incredibly brave for coming forward. I hope their example encourages more people with knowledge of abuse and information that could solve this case come forward.

I'd like to know if Gerry and Ed have both submitted DNA samples to be compared to that which LE in Codis? I think I recall reading up thread they do have DNA from the crime scene in a national database.

On another note, I find myself wondering why there was no blood in the car. If the perp brought it back wouldn't it make sense Cathy's blood would have been found in the car?

And for a moment I wondered if Sr. Russell might have done it.
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All good points. I don't think Sr Russell did it, but have a feeling she knows or strongly suspects who did. She ended up leaving the convent after Cathy's death. Moved away and married, had a family. JMO, she was afraid to say much about what she knew.

It would be interesting for Gerry & Ed to submit DNA, but both passed so many poly exams, it makes you wonder. Recall the cold case investigator admitted they had DNA from cigarette butts that were left at the crime scene. That said, I have a feeling they (Gerry & Ed) also know who did it, possibly how it happened. Like Sr Russell, that bond to the Catholic Church was so strong they couldn't bring themselves to express their opinions or share much information.

I find the situation with the car very strange. Why was it even returned to the street near her home? Most would just abandon it somewhere else, away from the abduction and crime scene. LE also said there were no fingeprints inside.

Definitely seems like more than one person was involved. The fact the bakery goods were found inside the car seems to indicate she made it to Hecht's department store. Someone must have followed her and either abducted her in the shopping center parking lot or later on her way home. JMO, she was killed where she was found, which would explain no blood in her car. Someone must have gotten in her car and drove or made her drive to that spot.

Suggest checking the past articles in the Baltimore Sun about the case. There were some from the early 90's with quotes from Sr. Russell and Ed, among others.
 
Found an old newspaper article within HuffPo article (link below) which says:

When sister Catherine had not returned at 12:43 AM, Saturday, Sister Russell telephoned two friends at the Manresa Retreat near Annapolis, who drove to Baltimore, heard the story and called police. One of the men, Brother Peter McKeon FSC went for a walk about 4 AM, and found Sister Russell’s green 1970 Maverick, parked, unlocked, in a no-parking area a block from the apartment.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/14/cesnik-nun-murder-maskell_n_7267532.html


It's been several weeks since I watched The Keepers (so it's likely I'm mistaken) but I thought the car was within sight of the apartment?

Now I'm wondering... what time did police arrive?? 'Guess I better go back and watch that episode again.
 
Agreed about the postmark. Years ago, it used to take at least three days for letters to arrive at their destinations​. Now, geez, sometimes people get letters the next day. So in 1969, it's not inconceivable--it's almost probable​--that the letter would have been postmarked after her death--by even a few days.

BTW, I would have taken that letter to the police and demand that they open it in my company. I just could not have handed it over blindly like that--I would have been too desperate to read what my sister had to say to me.

I also thought it was an enormous reach to try to connect the peridot stone to the sister's husband.

The above is just my opinion.
 
I have lots of thoughts about this case and it includes my post from way back in 2015.

I definitely believe there's more to the connection between Merzbacher (who received 4 life sentences for abuse) and Maskell.

Also, when I heard/read about the involvement by (gynecologist) Dr Christian Richter.... well... I have no words (fit to post).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Nov-1969-The-Keepers&p=12011876#post12011876
 
fred&edna said:
Found an old newspaper article within HuffPo article (link below) which says:

When sister Catherine had not returned at 12:43 AM, Saturday, Sister Russell telephoned two friends at the Manresa Retreat near Annapolis, who drove to Baltimore, heard the story and called police. One of the men, Brother Peter McKeon FSC went for a walk about 4 AM, and found Sister Russell’s green 1970 Maverick, parked, unlocked, in a no-parking area a block from the apartment.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/14/cesnik-nun-murder-maskell_n_7267532.html


It's been several weeks since I watched The Keepers (so it's likely I'm mistaken) but I thought the car was within sight of the apartment?

Now I'm wondering... what time did police arrive?? 'Guess I better go back and watch that episode again.
Click to expand...

I looked at that on the map. Address where the car was found is N. Bend Rd & Carriage Ct. It's on a hill and slightly around the bend from Sr. Cathy's apartment building. If you look at it in Google street view, you can see how it could have been missed if you were turning into the apartment lot or walking out to go downhill on N Bend (that's the way Koob said they walked late that night). Maybe they were paying more attention when they came back up the hill? Don't know.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.282...4!1suowOwa-XXsOh4V6tkA0_MA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The car was parked just over the hill and around the curve from this view.
 
fred&edna said:
I have lots of thoughts about this case and it includes my post from way back in 2015.

I definitely believe there's more to the connection between Merzbacher (who received 4 life sentences for abuse) and Maskell.

Also, when I heard/read about the involvement by (gynecologist) Dr Christian Richter.... well... I have no words (fit to post).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Nov-1969-The-Keepers&p=12011876#post12011876
Click to expand...

Ya, Richter sure is something else :puke:
 
SomeoneElse333 said:
Agreed about the postmark. Years ago, it used to take at least three days for letters to arrive at their destinations​. Now, geez, sometimes people get letters the next day. So in 1969, it's not inconceivable--it's almost probable​--that the letter would have been postmarked after her death--by even a few days.

BTW, I would have taken that letter to the police and demand that they open it in my company. I just could not have handed it over blindly like that--I would have been too desperate to read what my sister had to say to me.

I also thought it was an enormous reach to try to connect the peridot stone to the sister's husband.

The above is just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I agree about the stone.
 
Betty P said:
All good points. I don't think Sr Russell did it, but have a feeling she knows or strongly suspects who did. She ended up leaving the convent after Cathy's death. Moved away and married, had a family. JMO, she was afraid to say much about what she knew.

It would be interesting for Gerry & Ed to submit DNA, but both passed so many poly exams, it makes you wonder. Recall the cold case investigator admitted they had DNA from cigarette butts that were left at the crime scene. That said, I have a feeling they (Gerry & Ed) also know who did it, possibly how it happened. Like Sr Russell, that bond to the Catholic Church was so strong they couldn't bring themselves to express their opinions or share much information.

I find the situation with the car very strange. Why was it even returned to the street near her home? Most would just abandon it somewhere else, away from the abduction and crime scene. LE also said there were no fingeprints inside.

Definitely seems like more than one person was involved. The fact the bakery goods were found inside the car seems to indicate she made it to Hecht's department store. Someone must have followed her and either abducted her in the shopping center parking lot or later on her way home. JMO, she was killed where she was found, which would explain no blood in her car. Someone must have gotten in her car and drove or made her drive to that spot.

Suggest checking the past articles in the Baltimore Sun about the case. There were some from the early 90's with quotes from Sr. Russell and Ed, among others.
Click to expand...

Her car being driven back to her apartment makes me think it was only one person involved and that they followed her back from the shopping center to her apartment in their car and attacked her outside or forced her back into her car to abduct her That's really the only good reason I could think of for taking the risk to park it there. I don't have a good explanation for the odd park job.
Maybe they were hoping someone would steel it or they were trying to intimidate Sister Russel?

I have to wonder if the abuse angle is even related. I know it looks like it is, but there were 4 or 5 other people abducted from their cars around then.
 
Betty P said:
I looked at that on the map. Address where the car was found is N. Bend Rd & Carriage Ct. It's on a hill and slightly around the bend from Sr. Cathy's apartment building. If you look at it in Google street view, you can see how it could have been missed if you were turning into the apartment lot or walking out to go downhill on N Bend (that's the way Koob said they walked late that night). Maybe they were paying more attention when they came back up the hill? Don't know.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.282...4!1suowOwa-XXsOh4V6tkA0_MA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The car was parked just over the hill and around the curve from this view.
Click to expand...

I suppose Koob & McKeon didn't pass through/by this intersection (N Bend Rd & Carriage Ct) on their way TO the apartment? (Was this addressed in "The Keepers"?) 'Seems the car would have been easily visible (as it was partially in the road). So, either they didn't pass the intersection OR the car was parked at the intersection while they were inside the apartment (doing whatever it was they were doing with Sister Russell... and I'm confused about that part as well... fretting, praying, communion???).

I suppose it was when Sister Catherine's car was located that LE arrived, rather than earlier when Koob (reportedly) contact them?
 
fred&edna said:
I suppose Koob & McKeon didn't pass through/by this intersection (N Bend Rd & Carriage Ct) on their way TO the apartment? (Was this addressed in "The Keepers"?) 'Seems the car would have been easily visible (as it was partially in the road). So, either they didn't pass the intersection OR the car was parked at the intersection while they were inside the apartment (doing whatever it was they were doing with Sister Russell... and I'm confused about that part as well... fretting, praying, communion???).

I suppose it was when Sister Catherine's car was located that LE arrived, rather than earlier when Koob (reportedly) contact them?
Click to expand...

IIRC from The Keepers, Koob said they took their walk downhill from the apartment building, meaning they walked in the opposite direction from where the car was parked. It was when they were returning to her apartment, walking uphill, that they noticed it at the top of the hill.

I believe it was also said that someone else in the neighborhood had reported the illegally parked car to LE earlier that night, but LE didn't do anything until Koob called them and told them they found Cathy's car. IIRC, Koob had already called LE earlier that night to report her missing. LE told them to wait and see if she showed up. While waiting, they took the walk, saw the car and called LE again. I could be wrong, but I think that's the way it went.

Link to timeline in Baltimore Sun

http://www.baltimoresun.com/feature...ter-catherine-cesnik-case-20170518-story.html

Though some feel Koob acts hinky, I have a hard time seeing how he would decide to kill her (out of jealousy or unrequited love) and get another priest to help him do it. Just a very unlikely scenario.

But it is odd that the killer returned the car to a location down the street from where she lived.
 
Betty P said:
IIRC from The Keepers, Koob said they took their walk downhill from the apartment building, meaning they walked in the opposite direction from where the car was parked. It was when they were returning to her apartment, walking uphill, that they noticed it at the top of the hill.

I believe it was also said that someone else in the neighborhood had reported the illegally parked car to LE earlier that night, but LE didn't do anything until Koob called them and told them they found Cathy's car. IIRC, Koob had already called LE earlier that night to report her missing. LE told them to wait and see if she showed up. While waiting, they took the walk, saw the car and called LE again. I could be wrong, but I think that's the way it went.

Link to timeline in Baltimore Sun

http://www.baltimoresun.com/feature...ter-catherine-cesnik-case-20170518-story.html

Though some feel Koob acts hinky, I have a hard time seeing how he would decide to kill her (out of jealousy or unrequited love) and get another priest to help him do it. Just a very unlikely scenario.

But it is odd that the killer returned the car to a location down the street from where she lived.
Click to expand...


I think we're on the same page here, lol But, just clarifying my thought... trying to get a timeline for when the car was placed/parked.

I wasn't questioning why they did/didn't see her car when they took their walk, I'm talking about when they (Koob & McKeon) first arrived (by car) at the apartment. If we are sure this intersection wasn't on their driving route to the apartment then... I'm good with that :)
 
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