Medical Experts!! Head blow question(LONG)

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by WolfmarsGirl, Mar 3, 2004.

  1. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    Does anyone know if a fall from a bathroom sink, onto a ceramic-tile floor, would cause the head injury JB suffered?

    Also, is it true that someone smelled peroxide in the home on the morning of the 26th?

    Here is my thought:

    JBR was fairly stubborn and kind of did her own thing, right? She also seemed to like to play 'dress up,' with makeup and everything that a grown-up would use.

    Am I correct so far?

    Well, two things occur to me:

    1) Patsy said that she colored her hair on the 25th. JBR probably observed mom coloring her hair.

    2)Arrianna (sp?) Pugh as well as JBR's cousin were both at an age where they probably experienced their menstrual cycle.

    JBR might have, on occasion, been in the bathroom with one of these girls when they inserted a tampon (sorry for the graphics...)

    Is it possible that JBR tried to color her own hair on Christmas night?

    Also, is it possible that she had been experimenting with tampons?

    I know these two inquiries have nothing to do with each other and nothing to do with the topic of my post, but, walk with me here for a moment. Not sure where we are going, but hang on...

    I know when I was a kid, I absolutely adored older kids, especially the really 'cool' older girls!

    One year (I was eight), my girlfriend and I decided to make 'braces' for our teeth, so we could look just like the cool teenagers we knew.

    So, we made braces out of bread-tie wires that we stripped. We actually wore them to school!!! My dad caught us (little brother tattled!!!) and made us throw away our 'braces' before we caused ourselves serious dental damage!

    I also remember that my cousin was always so hip. And, she was almost four years older than me, so I hung on anything she said or did.

    One year, my cousin taught me to shave my legs!!! Wow!! I felt so grown up!

    She also taught me to put on makeup and she tried to teach me how to use sanitary pads and tampons. The pads were easy. I refused to try the tampons!

    My point is, do you think JBR's 'prior vaginal trauma' could have been caused by trying tampons???

    If so, that explains, at least for me, the molestation issue. Like I said previously, I don't see any evidence that any of the Ramsey children were molested.

    Now, back to the hair issue (and the bathroom counter).

    If JBR woke up and decided she wanted to color her own hair just like she saw mom do earlier, how would the child go about this task?

    Of course, her hair had been colored before...But Patsy did it that time.

    I know, I know...It was the 'Sun-In' stuff. Well, surprise, surprise--Sun-In is nothing more than Hydrogen Peroxide and some fragrance.

    If JBR opened a bottle of this product, the house would have an odor of peroxide...That odor is faint, but you can smell it.

    If JB attempted to color her own hair, would she use hair ponies to tie back her hair as she colored it in sections, as she may have seen adults do?

    Was she capable of putting ponies in her own hair (I know wolfchild is not able to do the ponies, but she is a whiz at the 'clippies')????

    Could she have gotten out of bed, grabbed the loom ties (to use as ponies), climbed up on the bathroom sink (wolfkid makes this climb at least 3 times a day) and started to color her own hair???

    Oops, back up...

    JBR gets out of bed. Patsy is working around the house. The men are asleep.

    Patsy confronts JBR with "Well, since you didn't wear the red turtleneck to the Whites and since you are awake anyway, let's get the clothes on you that you will wear tomorrow, starting with the red turtleneck!"

    JBR argues, but puts on the red shirt. Patsy goes about her business.

    Patsy makes some tea for herself. JBR joins her in the kitchen and grabs a bite of pineapple out of the bowl that is already there.

    Patsy scoots JBR off to bed wearing the red turtleneck shirt.

    JBR will not go to sleep. To spite Patsy, as soon as mom is out of sight, JBR grabs some hair ties (loom ties?) and heads for the bathroom...

    She looks at herself in the mirror and thinks, "Yuck! I hate this shirt!!"

    Of course, it is important to Patsy that JBR wear the red shirt on the 26th because Patsy was going to wear her red sweater again. They would have a second chance to match each other!

    So, JBR takes off the turtleneck. But, she is six-years-old. She gets sidetracked making funny faces in the mirror. Her shirt is off--except for the fact that it is in a bunch around her neck since she didn't remove it all the way...

    She ties back her hair. She starts to spray the color in it.

    Patsy walks in...

    Patsy throws a fit, screaming. Patsy is thinking a mile-a-minute now: Of all the times for JBR to pull a stunt like this, she choses a night when they have less than four hours left to sleep before they have to hop on the plane for a visit Patsy would rather not make in the first place just to see John's kids while John is snoring upstairs and Patsy had to deal with THIS!!!

    She tries to pull the shirt back onto JBR. JB fights. Patsy yanks and twists...

    The shirt that is just around JB's neck starts to choke her.

    Patsy is in a tizzy now. She is shaking and pulling JB by the shirt that is around her neck!

    JBR falls off of the bathroom sink and onto the ground as Patsy yanks a bit too hard...

    The rest is history, as they say...

    You have to remember that Patsy broke into tears when LE questioned her about what the red turtleneck was doing in the bathroom sink.

    I am not sure why they didn't pursue this line of questioning a bit further considering the fact that it hit a sore spot with Patsy, and hence, was probably significant.



    Now, back to my question (and the point of my post, lol):

    Would a fall from a bathroom sink, onto a ceramic floor cause the injury JBR suffered to her head?
     
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  3. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Yes, it could have happened that way. But such a relatively innocent cause of death likely wouldn't have given motivation for such a bizarre staging and coverup.

    JMO
     
  4. Shylock

    Shylock Former Member

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    I agree with BlueCrab. There was something that kept the Ramseys from just calling an ambulance that night because their daughter had been in an accident. Something happened that caused the accident, and one of the three survivors would have been in trouble.
     
  5. K777angel

    K777angel New Member

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    I agree with Shylock and Bluecrab. The "hiding" of elements of the crime is very telling in this case.
    Remember the head wound was UNKNOWN and invisible to everyone - until the medical examiner peeled back her scalp.
    Also the vaginal trauma done to her was purposely HIDDEN. The perp/stager did what she/he could to hide that fact. She was not only wiped down - a purposelful act, but time was also taken to pull her underwear and outer pants back up on her. Another purposeful act. Had this been a crime motivated by perverted sex by some pedophile killer - he would not have cared one bit about those things.
    And to further hide her body - care was taken to wrap her up tight like you would a newborn baby.
    And then - she was HIDDEN in the most remote room of the house.

    So all that was seen at first glance and for those first few hours on JonBenet was the cord tied around her neck and one wrist. That's it.
    The other horrors were hidden.
    I believe the reason that cord was placed around her neck and loosely around her wrists was because they HAD to show some visible indication of what happened to her.
    They were not thinking beyond far enough to an autopsy being done on her and consoled themselves that the head blow (with no blood resulting from it giving it away) - and vaginal injuries were a "secret".
    To help keep this "secret" - the note was created.
    This, they hoped, would further lead in another direction - and away from the home and what REALLY happened that night.

    I think there was hanky-panky going on in that house long before Dec. 25 1996.
     
  6. Ivy

    Ivy Inactive

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    Great posts!

    I'm one BDIer who believes that Burke is responsible for all the injuries JonBenet incurred, including the skull fracture. I don't consider any of her injuries to be staging. Because the skull fracture wasn't visible until the scalp was peeled back at autopsy, I doubt that John and Patsy knew she'd even been struck on the head, much less had it bashed in.

    IMO
     
  7. popcorn

    popcorn Inactive

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    Just a comment or two about the skull fracture. I'd read how important it is to not touch/probe any skull injury as that can cause further damage. Couldn't that have caused the displaced or dented in area and subsequent brain damage. I would assume the head blow made that horrible melon sound or worse. With no visible injury I think touching or palpating it would only be natural. This would mean the original force wasn't as great as reported and could have been a much simpler fall or shove.

    also

    I don't recall reading they shaved her head for the autopsy. Wouldn't they be able to analyze the hair over the injury site to see what it had been in contact with?
     
  8. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    I haven't posted a lot here or followed this case over the years like many have, so I do have a question. I have been wondering and didn't want to start a thread on this subject. About JonBenet being wiped down and then the pants pulled back up. How do they know she had been recently cleaned? Was there some residue on her or her clothes from a wet wipe or what? Thanks
     
  9. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    JonBenet had numerous dark blue fibers on her labia and inner thighs. The dark blue wipedown cloth from which the fibers came from was never found. Also, she had been re-dressed in size 12 panties. JonBenet normally wore size 4 and size 6 panties.

    I personally view the missing wipedown cloth as evidence of a fifth person in the house that night. IMO the cloth was an item of the perp's clothing, such as a shirt, which the perp wore when exiting the house. I view the ridiculous size 12 panties the perp put on JonBenet as evidence that children were involved. John or Patsy would have known better.

    JMO
     
  10. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    BC, I don't find the size 12 panties ridiculous at all. In fact, I find the size 4's and even the 6's pretty ridiculous.

    Patsy herself mentioned that JBR was actually closer to a size 8 or 10.

    Exactly why Patsy had been buying the child undies that were too small is beyond me...But I don't think that issue is really part of this crime. Except, perhaps, the too-tight undies caused some of JBR's vaginal iritation.

    My daughter wears a size 8...getting close to a 10. Wolfkid and all of her friends, who are amazingly all very close to the same size from shoes on up, wear a size 8. And, all of the kids wolfkid associates with, are very close to JBR's size...Even my niece, who is incredibly under-weight, is wearing an 8.

    My daughter has not been in a size 4 since she wore her very first 'big girl panties' when she was 18-months-old!

    As Patsy also mentioned, there is really very little difference between the sizes for little-girl undies. (Not that Patsy Ramsey's word is any good for much of anything in this case.) Still, I don't see any reason for her to fabricate this observation.

    Try this: Go to a local discount retailer and open a package of 8's and then a pair of 12's. Now, before the store security throws you in jail, BC :)D), you will see that there is only a touch more material in the 12's.

    Once they are washed, I doubt there is much difference at all...

    I do think JBR put the undies on herself.
     
  11. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    I do think the cover-up was done to conceal the crime. I think Patsy, in a fit of rage, shook and accidentally choked her child. Then (or before that), JBR was bashed on the head, or, rather, her head was bashed on something stationary in the home.

    This type of tragedy happens all the time...Stressed out parent flies off the handle and severely injures the child.

    I think the problem here started when Patsy came to her senses and realized what she did and then made the self-serving decision to cover up for what she did. I think she thought JBR was dead. (See my 'ring theory' about cradling and rocking JBR prior to the cover-up :D)

    Patsy knew, of course, that two things happened:
    1) JBR was shaken, around the neck, by Patsy. This fact had to be concealed.
    2) JBR hit her head. No visible signs of the head injury. So, Patsy was ok there.

    The cover-up was easy. The molestation was staged. This act was also easy for Patsy since she was 'enmeshed' with her daughter.

    I mean, we are all, as mommys, (sorry, guys ;)) 'enmeshed' to some degree with our children. We do things men would cringe at (at least my hubby would).

    Think about it, how many times have you, as a mom, caught kid-vomit in your hands, or medicated your child's bottom, or used a dreaded rectal thermometer, or pulled out a splinter from the bottom of a filthy foot with your teeth, or ate a spit-covered popsicle that your child had given to you???

    When it came down to the 'molestation,' this act was probably not much more difficult for Patsy than anything I just described, given her circumstances.

    And, molestation screams "MAN!" What better way to direct attention away from a woman than to stage a man's crime?

    I don't think JBR was molested prior to this night. I have seen children who are victims of sexual abuse. Believe me, they can barely get along in a school social-setting. I doubt JBR would have been in very public settings, like the pageants, if she had been abused. The same theory works for Burke.

    Some adult, somewhere in JBR's life, would have noticed odd behavior.

    I think the wiping down and redressing is definitely a 'mom' thing to do. It is almost automatic. Patsy felt that she had to 'clean up' her child in order to erase some of the indignity she just had to do to her.
     
  12. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    No way no how would JonBenet even remotely fit into a size 12. She was small and thin and would definately still fit in a size 4 underwear. It is typical to buy size 6 for a normal six-year-old, a size 8 for an 8yo, etc...

    It is typical of most mothers, myself included to not take the time to toss underwear that is one size too small. Only when my childs underwear drawer gets too full that I sort through it and toss the smaller ones. It is typical for a child to just reach for any size panties and put them on.

    Everyone has seen pictures of JonBenet and if any of you are parents...then you know darn well that JonBenet does not wear size 12 panties.
     
  13. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Another point I want to make is this:

    No MALE would think to wipe a females labia...it is something only a female will do.

    PERIOD.
     
  14. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Wolfie, I have a seven-year-old granddaughter living with me . She wears size six underwear.

    The cops confiscated all of JonBenet's underwear that were in her dresser drawer, which happened to be located in her bathroom. All of the underwear were size four's and size six's. There were no size eight's or twelve's. There were packaged size 12 underwear stored elsewhere that Patsy was supposed to give to a niece as a present, so the size 12's on JonBenet likely came from one of those new packages.

    Had JonBenet put on the size 12 underwear herself, they would have fallen down into her pantleg had she tried to walk wearing them. There were no pullups found at the crime scene so that wasn't the reason for her to be wearing size 12's. The size 12's found on JonBenet were obviously obtained upstairs by the perp and put on her by the perp, most likely after her death.

    IMO it points to Burke.

    JMO
     
  15. Shylock

    Shylock Former Member

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    BC,
    Your theory on the underwear is indeed possible, however there are a few other things to consider:

    -Burke would have known where JB's underwear was stored, so if he wanted to put panties on her he would have headed right for the drawer with the size four's and six's.

    -We can be sure that if the size 12 panties figure into the crime somehow, Patsy is probably lying about it. So there is no reason to believe that she bought the size 12 panties for a gift. The truth may be that she bought them for JB to use over the Pull-ups. Maybe JB didn't like the Pullups--maybe Burke teased her about them--teased her about wearing "diapers". Perhaps Patsy used one over a Pull-up when she put JB to bed. Remember the Pull-up package was hanging out of the cabinet, so it obviously had been recently used.

    -Remember that the elastic on new underwear is always tight and very stretchy. Even though size 12 would have been way too big for her, the elastic may have been tight enough to hold them up if she put them on herself.
     
  16. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    No, of course she wouldn't wear a size 12...But, I do think she would be closer to an 8. I always wondered why they had smaller panties than I would have thought she should be wearing at her size.

    Like I said, my child is taller than JB (49 inches) and about 49 pounds. She is very tall, skinny and long-legged. Most of her friends are just exactly the same size as her. My daughter and these same-sized friends are all five-to-six-year olds.

    At the start of the school year, I discussed sizes with one of my neighbors, who has a six-year-old. We talked about how our kids are close in size, and "what size panties and pants to do you buy wolfkid now?"

    She wears a 7 pants, since all of her 5's and 6's are 'high-water's now...Neighbor mom agreed to buy neighbor kid the same size as wolfkid, since all of her pants were now too short...We did the same comparison with undies...She was reluctant to put neighbor kid into the 8's because she thought they would be too big...I assured her they were not. They were not.

    Size 4's are teensy-tiny. Was JBR that tiny? I thought she was 47 inches. Or, was it 45 inches??? That might make quite a difference, I suppose.

    Yes, we do run across some 6's and even some 4's. I too hate to go through and disgard the old ones.

    Back to JBR: I don't think anyone, especially a male, could have put long-john long underwear back on the child without her complete cooperation.

    If they put new undies on her, then they would have to remove and replace the long pants too.

    I even find it hard to believe that Patsy did it while she was sleeping. I would certainly never attempt such a dangerous (lol) stunt with my child. This is nearly impossible to accomplish under the best of circumstances.

    I think JBR dressed herself, at least in her undies, and grabbed the wrong size.

    Hang on...let me see if i can find a panty size chart and post the link...be back.
     
  17. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    Hey, BC.

    How tall/heavy is your granddaughter? Do you know off hand? I want to figure this out...Maybe the 12's were to go over the pull-ups.

    I still think JBR just grabbed the wrong size.

    I can tell...I am going to have to go and buy a pair of 12's just to compare, lol.
     
  18. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    I just checked my seven-year-old granddaughter's dresser drawer. The underwear are a mixture of size 6's and size 8's. I stand corrected.

    There were no pullups at the crime scene, so there was no apparent reason for JonBenet to be wearing size 12 underwear. Someone who didn't know what they were doing put those oversized panties on JonBenet in an amateurish attempt to hide the sexual aspect of the crime. John and Patsy would have known better, so that leaves Burke or an intruder. But why would an intruder be concerned about staging a crime scene? He wouldn't be. That leaves Burke.

    JMO
     
  19. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Why would Burke have known where JonBenet's underwear were stored? The children had their own bedrooms at opposite ends of the the house. And the underwear JonBenet wore were kept in a drawer in the BATHROOM, a place Burke would not likely look.

    JMO
     
  20. Shylock

    Shylock Former Member

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    Oh-boy do I disagree with THAT one, BC!...:) I'm sure Burke probably used every bathroom in the house at one time or another. And kids know what is in every drawer in the house if they can reach it. Even though there was a 4-year age difference, there is no reason to believe the two kids didn't play together at times in JonBenet's room, especially when they were a little younger.

    It would have been a good question for LE to ask Burke - If he knew where her underwear was stored. I wonder if the GJ did.
     
  21. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    No one believes that JonBenet put size 12 underwear on herself. So who did? It had to be someone who didn't know her size 6 underwear were kept in a drawer in the bathroom, and it wouldn't be John or Patsy because they would have known better.

    Shylock, you say Burke would also have known her underwear were kept in the bathroom. So, by the process of elimination, that would leave only an INTRUDER as the person who rooted around in JonBenet's bedroom and found size 12 underwear to put on her. Is this what you believe?

    JMO
     

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