Members' Theories

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by JBRMod2, Mar 12, 2005.

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  1. Squishified

    Squishified Well-Known Member

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    Limaes,
    Excellent post! Your theory is pretty much my theory, but you are so much better at putting it into words than I.
    I especially agree with your first paragraph (about PR "treating" JBR's issues herself). I posted something similar once and was told that I had a "sick mind". :crazy:
     


  2. Alix

    Alix New Member

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    I agree with you and Liamaes. I think PR was the sexual abuser.
     
  3. circulon

    circulon New Member

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    Hi gang - long time lurker finally got registered. I've been reading this forum for almost 6 years. Love it. :)

    There are so many things about this case to talk about, but here are some things i think in a nutshell:

    The 911 call on the 23rd is a big clue. Someone made that call and either hung up to avoid being detected, hung up because they changed their mind, or got cut off. Something happened then and i'm certain it's part of this.

    The reason why i'm certain this case is RDI is this: The ransom note clearly stated that they must not involve not only police, but friends as well. So what did the Ramsey's do? They called as many people as they could. Now if they truly believed they were being watched, they would not have gathered so many people in the house.
    The reason they did this was so that JB would be "killed". "Woopsadaisy, we forgot to follow the instructions and now looks what's happened. Couldn't have been us."
    I think their original plan would have been to get JB's body out of the house, but that part of the plan didn't get to materialise.

    I'm not sure if the killing was accidental (as in someone lashed out at her but didn't intend to kill her) or premeditated. The 911 call on the 23rd puts doubt in my mind that it was purely accidental, but at the same time i have a hard time believing that someone planned to kill her in advance. Hard to say.

    But i do think it was Patsy, and Steve Thomas' theory makes a LOT of sense.

    I have to say that i haven't read/heard an IDI theory that fully makes sense and puts all of the pieces together. Most of them are missing important links, or leave facts out. I think it couldn't possibly have been an intruder.
     
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  4. Limaes

    Limaes Well-Known Member

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    No, you don't have a sick mind :) The evidence suggests that someone was doing something to her they shouldn't have and she wouldn't have wanted them too. Not only that night, but on previous occasions.

    JB had a few abrasions on the back of her lower leg. I wouldn't be suprised if they were caused by her thrashing or kicking her leg out in a natural instinct to stop it. Especially if she had been awoken from her sleep.
     
  5. Limaes

    Limaes Well-Known Member

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    Hi Circulon, I think the 911 call turned out to be Fleet White. Something to do with his mother?
     
  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    That part is still unclear. I think it was R friend SS who made that statement originally. She was the one who answered the door that day and wouldn't let police in. The officers responding also did not follow proper procedure, which required them to actually enter the home to be sure there was no 911 situation regardless of what they were told when they got there.
    I don't recall if FW backed up that statement.
     
  7. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    That could certainly be the cause of the abrasions, or could have resulted from being redressed on the cement floor or being pulled closer to the door of the wineceller, as some think may have happened. Or they could have happened previously, kids get scrapes all the time.
    One very telling mark is the large bruise on the back (posterior) of her left shoulder. This photo does not appear in every site that has the autopsy photos, but it is listed in the autopsy report. The bruise is in the exact spot where you could envision someone pressing or even kneeling against her as the garrote was tied. The bruise indicated she was on her stomach, which the urine stains and position of the knot also indicate. And as bruising also only happens when you are alive, that also fits in with the red ligature furrows and petechiae, which also had to have happened when she was still alive. Al these things point to a still-alive JB, who was probably unconscious from the head bash (thank God).
     
  8. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the forum. I pretty much agree with your entire theory. I am still unsure about whether they planned to actually get her out if the house. I don't think they would have ever done that. I can't see them dumping JB anywhere outside, where animals and the weather would have gotten to her. My theory is that the hid her in the wineceller because they didn't WANT police to find her, and that they thought LE would take the report of the kidnapping and then leave to organize the search or rescue or exchange (of JB for the ransom). THEN, the parents planned to call police back to say that JB had been killed because they called people when they were warned not to.
    I don't think they figured on forensic factors, like the fact that the livor mortis pattern and stage of rigor mortis show that she was placed on her back within approx 15 minutes of death and left in that position until she was found. They just weren't thinking of how to explain that. They MAY have intended to say that she must have been killed right there in the house AFTER they made the 911 call, which would have to mean the kidnappers were still in the house, with the parents scurrying around calling 911. Not to mention how they would have gotten away, even if they DID climb out a basement window. They would have been seen walking/running/driving away, and didn't JR claim to walk outside that morning and have a 30-second look around?
    Also the grate was replaced (never moved, in reality) and they would have heard that. Plus there was no evidence the grate was ever moved- intact spider web, the debris on the sill and in the well still intact. There are so many things that point to NO intruder/kidnapper that I can't see even people who do not think the parents (or sibling(s) ) are responsible not realizing this.
    When it became apparent to the parents that the police were NOT going to leave them alone in the house, and that they were going to be made to leave the body behind, Then JR, with the extremely good fortune of unwitting assistance from Detective Arndt, "found" her the first chance he got. They'd never have wanted her to be found by cadaver dogs in a state of decomposition.
     
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  9. chemgirl

    chemgirl Member

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    I haven't really formed a complete theory around this idea, but is it possible that PR &/or JR could have somehow convinced Burke that he had either accidentally or on purpose killed his little sister? They could've said he'd blacked out & they found him with the head-bashing implement in his hand, e.g. They'd tell him that if he ever told anyone, he'd be taken from them and put away or whatnot. Later, they could explain to him that they had staged the ransom note, the crime scene, etc. to protect him. Just the start of some possibilities I'm trying to string together...thoughts? Feel free to shoot holes in this theory!
     
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  10. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    This case has so many loose ends that any theory is possible. Certainly that could have happened, though pinning this on their 9-year old son is something that I can't see them doing, unless he WAS responsible.
     
  11. circulon

    circulon New Member

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    Thanks DeeDee, good to be here. :)

    Yes, the fact that the grate had never been moved, the spider web and all that is one of the biggest "no intruder" factors as far as i can see.
    It just makes me shake my head in disbelief to read all the protocols that went out the window from the get-go. It's too sad.

    I like your theory about what their plan might have been, i think that makes a lot of sense.
     
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  12. shotgunhomicide

    shotgunhomicide New Member

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    Hi All! I'm a new member here, but i've been lurking the JBR and Lauren Spierer forums for a lonnnng time now (especially the former). I finally decided to join on account of trying to stay updated with any new developments that could come up in the near future. Especially after reading Tricia's comment about progress potentially making way in the case, JR's new book and the wishful thinking that BR might reveal something that leads to a revelation in solving this crime.

    Anyway, I have no theory that i'm completely comfortable with. There are gaps in the logic of certain scenarios no matter which theory I build a case for. In any event, I lean more towards "RDI" than "IDI." I don't necessarily think the R's maliciously murdered JB. It was almost certainly an accident that spiraled completely out of control. The only thing that makes me weary of trusting that instinct completely is the un-sourced DNA found on JB's body. I know most people don't give the DNA much credibility in terms of being important to her murder, but I somehow don't think it was innocently placed. I certainly don't believe anyone should discount its value because it doesn't tie all of the other evidence together neatly.

    In an IDI scenario, I certainly believe the murder would have been carried out by someone the R's knew intimately and probably trusted enough to have gave a key to their home to. I lean more towards there being two individuals instead of just one. One of which, JB would be completely comfortable around (hints the undigested pineapple found in the kitchen) and another person to have actually carried out the sexual assault and the murder (hints the un-sourced DNA). Of course, the ransom note is a little bit baffling. What was the purpose in writing the letter at all if you planned to kill her? Perhaps a kidnapping for ransom was the purpose, but why would a kidnapper try to make an exit from the basement when it would have been much easier and much more logical to exit through whatever door you entered from. Especially if it's possible that there was two perpetrators instead of one. One could be the look out to make sure the coast is clear while the other one exited with JB. Perhaps in this scenario, the suitcase with the book and blanket would have been important to transport a tied up and mouth taped, petrified little girl. An IDI theory still doesn't explain fibers from Patsy's jacket being found in the rope on the garotte, nor does it explain the headbash.

    Therefore, i'm lead right back to RDI because I have to ignore fewer inconsistencies in the evidence than an IDI theory.
     
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  13. sandover

    sandover New Member

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    I am new to the case -- I've been studying it intensively for about a month now.

    Here is my theory:

    After a long day, the family arrives home around 9:30. John is tired and depressed -- he no longer feels close to his wife and the holidays bring back painful memories of the loss of Beth.

    Patsy is in denial about her the trauma of her cancer and her fear of its return. She has become hyper-religious and obsessed with success and appearances to fight off deep feelings of dread and anxiety.

    Burke and JonBenet are unhappy children who escape their pain through manic activity. But the pain is getting harder to deny and both are beginning to rebel against their mother, particularly JonBenet.

    This is a deeply unhappy family, in denial of their emotions.

    They arrive home. John and Patsy put the kids to sleep. John takes a melatonin and sleeps. Patsy tries to sleep but can't. She hears the kids playing. Annoyed, she goes down and tells them to go to bed. They say they're hungry. She says she'll give them something but then they have to go to sleep. She cuts pineapple for the kids and makes tea for herself, hoping that that will help her sleep. She knows she has to be up early.

    The kids eat and then go back to their rooms. Patsy goes back to her bedroom. Restless, she can't sleep. She hears that the kids have not gone back to sleep and goes downstairs. She tells Burke to go to bed. JonBenet runs off, as if playing a game with her mother. She is angry at her mother for making her wear the same clothes and buying her a lookalike doll, but she doesn't know how to express anger at her mother except through frustrating her. She runs down to the basement giggling. Burke has gone up to his room.

    Patsy grabs a flashlight and chases after JonBenet into the basement. She can't find her, it's dark. Finally she finds her -- shines a light on her face and sees her obstinate daughter giggling. In a fit of rage Patsy swings the flashlight and hits JonBenet in the head, knocking her out. She immediately panics and thinks she has damaged her daughter beyond repair -- she will be vegetable for the rest of her life and not a beauty queen. Terrified, she decides that the only way to preserve her daughter's beauty and her family's happiness after all the pain they've suffered is to make it appear that JonBenet was killed by an intruder.

    It's here that Patsy hastily puts together the tools to stage the death of JonBenet. The strangling is done to make sure that JonBenet is dead and not just in a coma.

    Once this is done, Patsy decides to write a ransom note to make it seem like there was an intruder. She is not thinking logically and just thinks that anything that makes it seem like someone else was here will deflect attention from her. She references John's bonus and anti-American sentiment when hastily thinking about the "People's Republic of Boulder" (as she and John called it) with its anti-big-business, anti-success ideology. She tells herself that there will be any number of suspects who will be anti-Access Graphics and anti-Ramsey family and that that will be the most convincing explanation for what happened that night.

    After doing all this Patsy realizes that if John knew what happened he would give her up. (Other scenario: if John had been abusing JonBenet, Patsy knows John will probably keep quiet out of fear this could be discovered. Either way, Patsy thinks it's best to pretend this really did happen, even to John. The more she can convince herself that this really did happen, the more she'll be able to fool others.)

    So Patsy goes back to bed and "wake up" normally. She "discovers" the ransom note and sets the morning's events into motion.

    From the moment John sees the ransom note, he knows something is off. But he's terrified of confronting Patsy knowing how fragile her mental state is and how traumatized she was by the cancer treatment. He also feels guilty for not being there for her in that time fully. (Alternatively: if he abused JonBenet, he is scared of being found out.) In a state of denial, John goes through the motions -- acting as if the ransom note is real. Further, JonBenet isn't around, so maybe she was taken -- maybe something crazy has happened that can be resolved, and JonBenet will be returned.

    Later in the morning, John discovers JonBenet's body in the basement. He tells no one, because the moment he sees her he realizes that it must have been Patsy. He panics and decides that for his family's sake he has no choice but to play along. After all, they have suffered so much already with the loss of Beth and Patsy's cancer. So later when Linda Arndt tells him to search the house he pretends to "discover" the body (hence his forgetting that he would have needed to turn on the light to see her, which he doesn't initially say when describing finding her) and brings her up and the charade begins.

    Patsy acts so convincingly that a part of him wonders if in fact she DIDN'T do it and perhaps there WAS an intruder. It's possible, isn't it? At no time does Patsy ever give John even the SLIGHTEST hint that she killed JonBenet. So he goes along with the ransom note and the more he acts as if he believes it, the more convincing it is. The more that their friends support them, the more he believes it. The more his lawyers and private investigators support him, the more he believes it. Deep in his soul he has doubts but he never ever voices them. Patsy never ever "leaks" any hints that she committed the murder. She is totally invested in her convincing performance.

    The moment the Ramseys, with the help of their team, can turn the police into the "enemy" the more John can feel that he is doing the right thing. This family has suffered enough. An accident may have happened but that's no reason to destroy everything he has worked for. What about their suffering? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... And the Ramsey charade is running at full tilt, and will never stop.

    At times he'll wonder and worry about the truth coming out. Could Patsy have a breakdown? Will evidence be uncovered? But he can always claim that he had nothing to do with it -- because he didn't. When he says the kids went to sleep, he's telling the truth. They did. He isn't lying when he says he doesn't know how JonBenet got pineapple. He isn't lying about anything, exactly. He's just not expressing all of his thoughts and doubts and suspicions.

    Burke is so traumatized by the events of the night that his deposition to police is without detail. He may even have repressed what happened due to his own emotional problems, his envy of JonBenet, and his confusion about what was real and what wasn't after the chaos of the morning.

    As long as she lives Patsy convinces herself that she loved JonBenet and didn't do anything wrong. She saved her from a terrible life. Every now and then the truth seizes up in her but her faith in God makes her feel that after JonBenet had been hit with the flashlight there was no other choice, that she did the compassionate and loving thing, and that all will be reunited in heaven.

    Now that many years have passed, John's doubts are more freely felt by him, and in subtle ways he is pointing towards Patsy as a disturbed individual. But more or less he has successfully compartmentalized what happened that horrible day. As has Burke. Nothing good can come from the truth now. And Patsy has paid for her sins: she died before her time.

    Forgiveness is the only course. John has forgiven himself and forgiven Patsy and moved on. He prays that his son never enters the memory of that night and has doubts about his mother. He feels that Burke is the last link to this horrible secret and if he can forget about it forever, then he can live in peace the rest of his days.

    But that small lingering doubt nags at him... and so as he builds his new life he subtly points the finger at Patsy in case the truth ever does come out, one way or another. If it does, John can say, "I had no idea -- that woman had problems and I guess she did the unthinkable."
     
  14. Lovebug

    Lovebug New Member

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    Out of all the cases I've followed and read up on I've never been more upset with the amount of injustice that has been delivered in this case. JonBenet deserves justice and with each passing day my heart sinks because I don't think we will ever truly know what happened that horrible night. I've read all of the books from both standpoints.. Thomas and the Ramsey's and my opinion has swayed but I do fully believe now after taking time and looking over everything that there was no intruder in the house that night. In my mind, I can't imagine a kidnapper coming into a huge house with no ransom letter ready in hand or no other supplies. Everything that was used came inside from the Ramsey house. I do think that the murder was an ACCIDENT... absolutely one hundred percent do not think that there was any intent to harm JonBenet. I think something awful happened and everything went crazy from there.

    I know a lot of people think that Patsy did it and honestly I do believe she wrote that note. In my mind though, the only way I can think of two parents lying and covering for each other for so long is because they were protecting their other child. I'm not sure that Burke is completely innocent here. I know that LE supposedly ruled him out but I just can't do the same in this case. I don't see John or Patsy not spilling the beans or slipping up after all these years if there wasn't something HUGE at stake... such as their son's reputation and freedom. Freak accidents happen ALL the time and I do believe that it was either Patsy or Burke that started the whole confrontation that night. I don't think John knew until after JonBenet was dead or close to death.

    I think the past trauma to JonBenet's vaginal area was due to cleansing for her bed-wetting problems. Linda Hoffman Pugh stated she would hear JB screaming in the bathroom with Patsy... I do believe Patsy was getting fed up with the bed wetting and the soiling and took it upon herself to try and teach JB a lesson with the cleaning. I think that the bed wetting was something that just could not be for Patsy's beautiful, beauty-queen. It didn't fit the image that she was trying to project for her daughter. I think Patsy loved her daughter dearly but a lot of control was in the relationship with JB. She wanted JB to be perfect and I think it was a very controlling relationship.

    I think that night that JB was not asleep as Burke told LE. I think Patsy and John kept hammering it into LE's minds that JB was asleep when they arrived home because it would account for more time that night. She was in her bed... nothing that involved them and her happened because she was asleep. I do think she walked into the house that night... I think she probably soiled the bed or for whatever reason was not cooperating. I know she wasn't feeling well leading up to that night so maybe she just couldn't get to sleep. Patsy was frustrated, tired and was maybe a little too rough in her handling of JB. I think JB's head was hit and panic ensued. If it wasn't Patsy... something happened with Burke, which to me explains the pineapple and tea... perhaps they went downstairs to get something to eat. JB had pineapple and Burke made himself the tea in the glass, which makes sense for someone of his age to do that. It wasn't in a cup that's usually used for that type of drink. The head blow happened and again panic ensued.

    I think Patsy wrote the note and John helped her out with that. I think that it was just complete and utter panic from the point JB received the head blow. I do think there was total staging of the scene in the basement. The presence of her nightgown and blanket show that there was some care put into the way her body was left. She was redressed, wiped down... again cleaned up to be presented in a better way.

    The hardest part for me to fathom is the paintbrush being used to assault her. No one wants to believe that a parent would be capable of doing such things but parents have done and will continue to do some truly awful things to their children. I think they definitely wanted to go with the sexually motivated intruder angle and it was done for further staging.

    The Ramsey's were very religious and I know that the Bible was opened and on a specific page. Due to their religious background, that's also why I'm more inclined to believe that John and Patsy staged the scene and remained silent only to protect their other son. They could justify to themselves that they did this to protect Burke and save his life.

    Even though I feel like there's a strong possibility that Patsy delivered the blow, I tend to believe that Burke was involved. It explains the pineapple and the tea downstairs. I'm sure that Burke and JonBenet could have argued over something and she was hit or she fell and hit her head. Patsy wrote the note, John helped stage the scene... told Burke to go to his room and stay there... drilled it into his mind that he was asleep and never left the room.

    With the body remaining in the house it further confirms my suspicions. Patsy and John wouldn't want to leave their daughter's body out in the cold. They loved their daughter. In addition, they didn't want to take a chance of being seen with the body. There's NO way that a kidnapper that intended to hold a ransom would begin a sexual attack on the little girl in her home with the parents upstairs. They'd want to get out of there ASAP. Also, there's no way a random abductor would have taken extra care with the body. JB was wrapped up and covered. Most sexual offenders or perps would not think twice about that. If it was a botched kidnapping and for whatever reason they had to kill her on the scene they would have just left her without much thought.

    I don't think either John or Patsy were planning on being the ones that discovered the body that day. After waiting and waiting... and waiting... and with Fleet passing JB by in the cellar, John probably couldn't take it anymore and just led them to the body. He made sure Fleet was with him so that there was no suspicion and he had a witness with him discovering the body.

    Sadly, I don't think we will ever know. It angers me that Burke refuses to sit down with LE and go over that night. It seems as if Burke is completely at peace with his sister's murder remaining unsolved. If my sister was horribly killed and I didn't know why... you can bet your bottom that I would be fighting for her. I'd be fighting for justice for my sister. Burke can't make excuses because of his age because Burke and myself are the exact same age. I think Burke holds the answer and I don't think he will come forward any time soon.
     
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  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely on target, every word, Lovebug. And it pretty much sums up everything I believe about this case.
     
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  16. sandover

    sandover New Member

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    DeeDee and Lovebug, one question re this:

    "Even though I feel like there's a strong possibility that Patsy delivered the blow, I tend to believe that Burke was involved. It explains the pineapple and the tea downstairs. I'm sure that Burke and JonBenet could have argued over something and she was hit or she fell and hit her head. Patsy wrote the note, John helped stage the scene... told Burke to go to his room and stay there... drilled it into his mind that he was asleep and never left the room."

    Weren't Patsy's fingerprints also on the pineapple bowl? Is it really likely that Burke and JonBenet together decided to get something to eat, apart from their mother? Would children that age put pineapple into a bowl, and would a 9 year old boy boil water for tea? These seem more "adult" activities and would place Patsy at the scene at that time.

    The other reason Burke's involvement seems unlikely to me -- his relative success as a student. Had he killed his sister accidentally, he was old enough to have this really "imprinted" on his psyche and he would have presumably struggled with immense guilt, shame, and anxiety (not to mention trauma in knowing what his parents did to his sister to cover it up). Don't you find it hard to believe that had Burke been involved, he has never indicated anything along these lines during police questioning, subsequent schooling, college, etc?

    Thoughts?
     
  17. Lovebug

    Lovebug New Member

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    You're right the tea and the pineapple being in the bowl do seem like grown up activities. However, I can't see Patsy making tea and putting it into a glass. It seems as if Burke was trying to recreate something he'd seen his mother do several times. I could see Patsy going over the house and seeing the tea and the bowl of pineapple on the table. She asked Burke and he told her he made it for himself and JB. Patsy was going to clean it up, leaving her fingerprints, and then realized they could use it as more "evidence" of an intruder coming in since they were going to tell LE that Burke was asleep the whole time. Patsy was adamant and I mean adamant about not giving JB the pineapple... which allowed her to say that the intruder must have come in and fed her.

    And I think Burke just doesn't think about it. That's exactly what bothers me. He was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong but I'm sure that John and Patsy drilled it into him that he was innocent, that he didn't do anything wrong.... they could have told him so many times that he was asleep in his room when everything happened that he just started to believe it. They are very religious they could have told Burke over and over to forget that night and that Jesus forgave him. You never know. Even if he wasn't involved he has NEVER come forward publicly on an anniversary of JB's death or anything to talk about his sister. If my baby sister was horribly killed I would be trying to find justice for her. Perhaps, it is painful for Burke and therefore he tries to forget that night... but honestly I can't imagine not coming forward and at least saying some nice words about JB.
     
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  18. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Patsy and BR both had their prints on the pineapple bowl, but I think only BR's prints were on the glass. One thing about that glass...just because there was a tea bag in the glass does not mean the glass had been used to actually make tea. Making tea in a glass is a very European way to do it, but it may have been a Southern custom as well. The tea bag could have been put in the glass after being used in a cup or mug, the way you might put a spent tea bag on a plate or anything else on the table. BR was said to be a tea drinker, and this isn't that unusual for a child - I drank tea (with milk and sugar) from early childhood to this day.
    BR hasn't been questioned- not really. There were some very brief interviews in the beginning, but his lawyers have never allowed him to be questioned in depth. Not to this day. There are things he could say that would contradict what his parents have said and I do not think his lawyers (or his father) will allow that.
    If BR was involved, and I think that may be the case, I do not think he was involved in the staging at all. I think he does not know anything about that and remember he was hurried out of the house early the next morning and never saw the corpse (thankfully). Over the years, BR has been told by his parents what they want him to know. Though Patsy said they never spoke about JB's death with their son, I cannot believe that. Children tend to remember past events the way they are TOLD they happened and not necessarily the way they actually happened.
     
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  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    And here was me thinking it was a US thing to drink iced tea from a glass. Tea in the UK is drank from a cup or mug hot. Drinking hot tea from a glass is not reccommended, so its likely that the teabag was simply discarded into the glass, and the cup taken elsewhere and possibly washed up by the R's friends the next day.

    Regardless of the mechanics, one inference I have written down for Burke that night is because he drank tea, then he was probably more hyperactive than normal due to the stimulant effect of the tea? That is he was awake for longer than normal.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    sandover,
    It is more probable that Burke was involved than he was not. You can infer this from the fact that the evidence of breakfast bar was left in place!

    If Patsy had organized the breakfast bar session then why would she remember to remove the remaining size-12's, but forget to remove direct evidence that JonBenet was awake after arriving home?
     
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