Members' Theories

[Jane Osa]

Seahorse - I find it interesting that the murder weapon was fashioned into a garotte from Patsy's paint brush - either this is very strange or quite a bit of genius on the part of the perpetrators setting up the R's. And they would have had to be hanging out at the house for quite some time (the brush was whittled down). In which case I wonder - if they were that close to the R.'s to have such ease, knowledge, access, etc. - why have they not been apprehended? As you suggest, if the actual murderer were hired then perhaps we'd have no DNA match and the person who hired said person would have an alibi - however, would any hired killer hang in a house that long, whittle a paint brush, fake notes, and (from what I understand) give JBR a bath in the middle of the night (risking detection)? And, all the staging (again, after death, risking detection - if so, this guy must have been paid a pretty penny & you'd think that this amount of money could be tracked & stand out like a sore thumb to any police investigation, however, if this were carefully planned I'll give you that these details were 'covered')...if it's not somehow the R.s it's a genius of a 'set-up'.

 

[Jane Osa]

Hello, Superdave you posted as I was too - where are the references to it (clawing) being a myth?

 

[BBB167893]

The autopsy report. It lists no marks consistent with clawing.

Also, JB had almost no skin under her nails. If I were to claw at my neck, I'd have plenty, I know that.

As for the paintbrush being whittled, don't forget: Burke was known to whittle with his Swiss Army knife so much that the housekeeper took the knife away.

 

[Jane Osa]

Thank you, Superdave - I thought the report said the opposite. I've only looked into this case for a few days since the 'news' broke. The last couple of days I've wished I hadn't looked deeper - what a morass! And this poor little girl....
I have to say that sometimes I do believe Burke had something major to do with this - OR, the garrotte was found & easy to hand & the intruder used it (but, it was fashioned by Burke).

 

[BBB167893]

Thank you, Superdave - I thought the report said the opposite.

Nope. It says petechial hemorrhaging and abrasion approximately 3x2 inches. If she were clawing, would her fingers be close together or spread apart? I vote spread apart. AMES is a poster here who can tell you firsthand. Ask her nicely. Not only that, but the photo of JB's neck clearly shows one solid area of bleeding under the skin, not the kind of erratic marks you'd expect.

 

[Jane Osa]

So, either she was unconscious the entire time of being strangled or she was indeed subdued (is that what you're suggesting Superdave, she was subdued prior to death?) while being strangled? I don't know any details about the bondage part (i.e., subdued - rigor mortis, etc.) Is there a standard theory with proof (autopsy) that she either was or was not subdued prior to death?

Also, was she 'washed' after murder?

 

[BBB167893]

So, either she was unconscious the entire time of being strangled or she was indeed subdued (is that what you're suggesting Superdave, she was subdued prior to death?)

In the immortal words of the Fonz: correctamundo!

Dr. Werner Spitz said that the garrote was applied AFTER she'd been struck on the head and unconscious. Dr. Ronald Wright said it could have been anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour between them.

Which is the only way she'd stay still to be strangled, because those wrist ties wouldn't restrain an infant. There's a reason why police handcuffs don't have a lot of space between 'em. Like I said, ask Ames. Just do it nicely.

Is there a standard theory with proof (autopsy) that she either was or was not subdued prior to death?

i can only tell you what the pathologists said.

Also, was she 'washed' after murder?

Her crotch was wiped with a cloth, and, by some accounts, a different top was put on her.

 

[Jane Osa]

How do Spitz and Wright explain the lack of blood? That she was hit and after being cleaned up was strangled (or cleaned up after both acts?). I thought the autopsy said her eyelid blood vessels burst - could they burst after death without bloodflow if enough pressure were applied?

It just doesn't add up that way to me (to be honest just about nothing in this case does) - but, who'd think the motive/excuse.strangulation would 'cover' the obvious head wound? I'm assuming it's standard to assume she was being strangled and during the time of strangulation was hit on the head.
Now, who is Ames? And do they bite?

 

[Seahorse]

Actually it is a genius of a set up but what makes it possible is that, I believe, this person was a friend of the Ramseys and therefore had practically unlimited access (key, knowledge of when family was out of town etc.)
I also believe the person that did the actual murder was in the house during the party the R's attended that night and that it was probably planned that he would find certain articles within the home to stage the set-up. Also consider the size of this home 7,000+square feet, lots of places to hide.
If you were going to try and Nail the parents you would want any "weapon" to come from the family.

Actually the fact that the ransom note came from within the house from a notepad and pen that PR used is really overkill to me! It is so obvious,to me, that somebody was trying to ruin their "perfect little lives." ....And they did!!
I don't believe that ransom note was written in the actual house. I believe it was written beforehand and brought back into the house. It was obvious that the R's had given out lots of keys and were very giving with their home ...offering it to be used to guests of their friends when out of town.

As far as JB being bathed that night, it was my understanding that she was just wiped down.

People murder for the contents of a wallet all the time and lots of money is hidden every day...I don't think that's an issue at all.

There was also mention on another sight about a book being left in the home that was a foreign language. It was said that this book would give the R's a hint as to who may have done this without them being sure.

As I said before, I think this was well thought , pre-meditated, even the 911 call from the party on the 23rd. I believe the person responsible for this was there and responsible for the call. Talk about suspicious!!! Well thought! Maybe they were doing this to add suspicion or maybe to see what the response time would be for the police. Who knows?

I just don't believe the R's did this, never have. This was a hate crime and probably the cruelest thing you could do to a family, kill their child and frame them for the murder.
I respect your opinion. As I said before, I have visited often but very rarely ever posted. This is just my opinion.

 

[Jane Osa]

Are you saying that the restraints are a ruse by someone after death to indicate a kidnapping of an unwilling victim?

I'm confused because I think you say she was subdued prior to death, yet you say the restraints would not actually be capable of restraining her - and the only reason she doesn't fight being strangled is that she's dead....? So, are you saying restraints put on after head trauma or before head trauma? Either way I grasp that you believe head trauma was cause of death (or was at least done before strangling)? I thought autopsy said cause of death was asphyixsiation (can't spell that right now).Thanks for your information, by the way, Superdave.

 

[BBB167893]

How do Spitz and Wright explain the lack of blood?

Like this:

Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

That of course, is yet ANOTHER myth. If you read the autopsy carefully, you'll see that there was actually pretty extensive bleeding. Here, I'll show you:

"An extensive area of scalp hemorrhage. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches." That's ONE. i don't know about you, but I bled enough to cover the space of a doily, I'd be worried!

"A thin film of subdural hemorrhage 7-8 cc extending over the right cerebral hemisphere." That's a second area of bleeding

"A thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere" A third area of bleeding.

PLUS, the brain was swollen so bad it pressed against the skull:

"Narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen" The sulci are the folds in the brain. The gyri is the folded material. This poor girl's brain was so swollen the folds were pressed together and her brain matter flattened against the skull. That takes time. A LOT of time.

I thought the autopsy said her eyelid blood vessels burst - could they burst after death without bloodflow if enough pressure were applied?

Maybe. Petechiai are very easy to get.

It just doesn't add up that way to me (to be honest just about nothing in this case does)

Welcome to the club.

but, who'd think the motive/excuse.strangulation would 'cover' the obvious head wound?

I'm not sure it WAS an attempt to cover the head wound, just to give JB a death worthy of a pageant princess.

I'm assuming it's standard to assume she was being strangled and during the time of strangulation was hit on the head.

Uh, not standard, but Werner Spitz DID say she was strangled with the collar of her shirt and hit on the head before the cord was applied, whatever that does for you.

Now, who is Ames?

She's a friend of mine on here.

And do they bite?

No, but she was strangled as a child, so she might be a bit sensitive, is all.

 

[Jane Osa]

Seahorse: if the R's didn't do it and weren't accomplices then I think you're right on! I hope we'll know in our lifetimes...

 

[BBB167893]

Are you saying that the restraints are a ruse by someone after death to indicate a kidnapping of an unwilling victim?

Per the Fonz again: correctamundo!

I'm confused because I think you say she was subdued prior to death, yet you say the restraints would not actually be capable of restraining her - and the only reason she doesn't fight being strangled is that she's dead....?

Sure.

So, are you saying restraints put on after head trauma or before head trauma?

AFTER.

Either way I grasp that you believe head trauma was cause of death

No, she was strangled to death. But the head blow would have killed her anyway.

(or was at least done before strangling)?

Right.

I thought autopsy said cause of death was asphysxiation (can't spell that right now).

Right.

Thanks for your information, by the way, Superdave.

I am as good as I think I am! LOL

 

[Jane Osa]

Superdave, thanks!

Also, I understand the 'ask nicely' advice. If I'd known Ames history I wouldn't have been glib...

 

[Jane Osa]

Thanks again Superdave - we're posting fast & furious at the same time, it seems - but, I'm off to dinner here soon...

Seahorse, I was wanting to ask you what you think about Patsy wearing the same clothes, the lying about Burke during the 911 call that morning, their behavior and testimony that is contradictory?

I was also thinking if one wanted to make sure the R.s were nailed for the crime you'd think they'd get their DNA at the scence, right? Just get Patsy's hairbrush and scatter a smidge, or her clothing, etc. - ? (Rumors are that P's clothing fibers are there, but, maybe that's myth, too). Seems they'd do that....just thoughts & wondered what your opinion is.

 

[BBB167893]

I wouldn't mind some dinner myself! BBQ ribs!

I was also thinking if one wanted to make sure the R.s were nailed for the crime you'd think they'd get their DNA at the scence, right? Just get Patsy's hairbrush and scatter a smidge, or her clothing, etc. - ?

You'd expect to find that, though.

(Rumors are that P's clothing fibers are there, but, maybe that's myth, too).

No, ma'am! No myth at all, per Patsy's own statements. In October 2002, she told a news reporter that it wasn't surprising to find her fibers on JB because she laid on top of her that morning doing her "raise my baby from the dead bit." Trouble is, that little story is contradicted by John in their OWN BOOK! He wrote, and the police reports bear him out, that JB's body was covered up by a second blanket (not the one from the basement) BEFORE Patsy came into the room.

OOPS! (Plus, you gotta wonder. In the two and one-quarter years between the time she was asked that question and her answer, that lame-*advertiser censored** story is the best she could come up with?) (Not only that, but if you've never seen the video of that exchange with the DA's lawyers, she practically swallows her own tongue when she's asked!)

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?

 

[Seahorse]

Hi JO

I would have to go back and read the specifics of both issues ...But if you really think about it, if PR had on the same clothes as the night before wouldn't that almost be too weird...I mean if she did it don't you think they would be dirty? I think it is difficult to say how a person would think in a certain situation if you are not the person in it!

Considering behavior....first of all there minds were blown, I think it would be surreal, shock! Contradictory testimony ...you'd have to be specific but I do know this: When I took PSYCH 101 in college the professor staged the theft of her pocketbook from the podium at the front of the class. She did a great job acting panicked, and frantic. She asked us all to write down what we saw. Keep in mind that it was at the beginning of class and she had just called everyone to her attention so we were all front and center. You would absolutely not believe the discrepancy in the descriptions, it was unbelievable and proved a huge point. Human memory within itself is NOT scientific!
Also consider the amount of time that had passed between the actual events and their depositions.....people really do forget more than they remember.
I'm just thinking of the entire situation. Why would they do this? What would they benefit from this...the HEll their lives would become? As far as BR, that whole notion is ridiculous to me they had been at a party, he too, was a child, he was worn out ....come on!
You know we over analyze and try to put it all together and its just a mess. I'm just saying, too, that things can be argued for the R's as well as against them. Nobody knows for sure but it is just my humble opinion that I do not think they were involved in any way, in fact, I believe they were victims too. I too, hope this case is solved and I hope that the public and LE learn from this situation. I appreciate being able to express this on this web-site. Have a nice dinner!

 

[LI_Mom]

How usual is it to have such an extensive skull fracture without external bleeding?

I know tiny tears in the scalp bleed a LOT.


Does this lack of blood have anything to do with the timing of the blow & the strangulation or was it simply a blow that didn't break the skin???

 

[BBB167893]

I would have to go back and read the specifics of both issues ...But if you really think about it, if PR had on the same clothes as the night before wouldn't that almost be too weird...I mean if she did it don't you think they would be dirty?

I've wondered that myself. But some fabric repels dirt better than others. PLUS, JB had a blanket under her body, per John's statement. She wouldn't have had to make contact with the cellar floor at all.

Why would they do this?

Why does anyone do anything, Seahorse?

What would they benefit from this...the HEll their lives would become?

That could take a little more explaining. But I'll do it, if you want.

As far as BR, that whole notion is ridiculous to me they had been at a party, he too, was a child, he was worn out ....come on!

I agree completely.

 

[LI_Mom]

Hi JO

I would have to go back and read the specifics of both issues ...But if you really think about it, if PR had on the same clothes as the night before wouldn't that almost be too weird...I mean if she did it don't you think they would be dirty? I think it is difficult to say how a person would think in a certain situation if you are not the person in it!

Considering behavior....first of all there minds were blown, I think it would be surreal, shock! Contradictory testimony ...you'd have to be specific but I do know this: When I took PSYCH 101 in college the professor staged the theft of her pocketbook from the podium at the front of the class. She did a great job acting panicked, and frantic. She asked us all to write down what we saw. Keep in mind that it was at the beginning of class and she had just called everyone to her attention so we were all front and center. You would absolutely not believe the discrepancy in the descriptions, it was unbelievable and proved a huge point. Human memory within itself is NOT scientific!
Also consider the amount of time that had passed between the actual events and their depositions.....people really do forget more than they remember.
I'm just thinking of the entire situation. Why would they do this? What would they benefit from this...the HEll their lives would become? As far as BR, that whole notion is ridiculous to me they had been at a party, he too, was a child, he was worn out ....come on!
You know we over analyze and try to put it all together and its just a mess. I'm just saying, too, that things can be argued for the R's as well as against them. Nobody knows for sure but it is just my humble opinion that I do not think they were involved in any way, in fact, I believe they were victims too. I too, hope this case is solved and I hope that the public and LE learn from this situation. I appreciate being able to express this on this web-site. Have a nice dinner!

As far as Patsy's wearing the same clothes....

if we consider that she probably dressed right before the party & was just sitting around chatting for the evening, it's really not THAT big a deal if she wore the same outfit the next morning. I guess I can buy that story.


Interesting Psych experiment.