Members' Theories

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by JBRMod2, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    GJ stands for grand jury.

    JonBenet sustained an 8.5 inch cranial fissure. On the CBS series, a child actor produced a crack directly underneath where the plug of bone at the base of the skull had been displaced. The boy who did the CBS demo didn't produce the type of cranial trauma described in the autopsy report.

    Burke hit JonBenet once, when he was 7, with a golf club. The only adult who was present described the incident as an accident.
     
  2. TheAudCar

    TheAudCar New Member

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    Well like the golf club incident, why couldn't the same be true with the flashlight? Especially if it was out of rage. Do you have any more information about the golf club incident like why it happened or who the adult was?
     
  3. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    From Steve Thomas' book:

    "In the summer of 1994 JonBenet was accidentally hit on the left cheek by a golf club swung by her brother, Burke, and her mother rushed the child to see a plastic surgeon, who thought Patsy was overreacting."

    A former friend of Patsy's said in a television interview that Patsy told her Burke did it on purpose.
     
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  4. TheAudCar

    TheAudCar New Member

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    That is interesting! If he did it on purpose, that convinces me even more that Burke was most likely the one who at least knocked her unconscious.
     
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  5. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    First: search warrants take time to obtain. Second: there's no doubt JR would have sicked his attorneys on any search warrant. Third: was JR getting his plane ready for everyone, or would he have stayed back to handle something while flying out the rest? Fourth (and most important): search warrants are not always allowed, without sufficient evidence. Without a body, the police would have had no evidence to offer; and you can certainly bet the R's wouldn't have allowed the police to freely search their home without a warrant -- to me, JR was banking on this. He was banking on the police having insufficient evidence to obtain a search warrant.

    We will never know what the deal was with FW; meaning, we won't ever know if the body was there when he checked. because he never found the light switch. It's certainly possible the body was somewhere else and eventually moved to the cellar, but in my view, it's just as possible that it was there the entire time. We'll never know.

    Yes, I'd say so. I think this entire crime was reactive. I don't think the murder was premeditated; therefore, I don't think the cover-up was premeditated. It was all done on the fly. Would you not agree?

    One last thing to consider: JR moved the body to the cellar because he did know it had already been searched by FW; and figured it would not be searched again.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  6. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    You're talking about the CBS doc, right? I'd be hesitant to accept that, since they did it in that doc, it's gospel. It was a completely fake skull and didn't the kid have multiple tries? And wasn't the mark made at the top (i.e. not near the bottom, as it occurred in real life) of the fake skull? Either way, it's still incredibly rare for a nine-year-old -- on his first and only try -- to make that amount of force. You have to take into account the trajectory of the CBS kid -- which was from the top and in an overhead motion, etc. Plus the kid knew going into it that it was his absolute mission to hit the skull his hardest, etc. Point being, I personally don't think it was a fair comparison/experiment.
     
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  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    Sure, but in the event the Ramsey's skipped town, they would eventually be issued. Anyway JR signed 'Consent To Search' forms so to expedite a house search the day JonBenet was found.

    JR had two private planes , he was overheard about 1:40 PM telling his pilot to prepare for a flight to Atlanta. Fleet White called back to cancel the flight!

    Yes, the parents were reacting to events, the cover up, or staging was also reactive, so I agree all done on the fly.

    You must reread the sequence of events, shortly after arriving at the Ramsey's house, Fleet White went on a solo search of the basement which included looking into the wine-cellar.

    John Ramsey was completely ignorant about this until he was told by investigators whilst being interviewed by BPD !

    1997 Boulder Police Department, John Ramsey, Interview Excerpt
    .
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    TheAudCar,

    GJ = Grand Jury Counts:
    So the said person is other than one of the parents, otherwise one of them would be hit with a Murder In The First Degree count.

    .
     
  9. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    Snipped to address specific points:

    Again, not necessarily (that search warrants would be allowed). You need evidence --not circumstantial evidence -- but real evidence in order to obtain a search warrant.

    Yes, that's fair, although I will say this: JR says a lot of things publicly, but who knows what to take as truth or fiction. He did know that FW had searched "the basement," and that the basement had already been searched. Since the cellar is in the basement, he still could have figured that it was safe to move the body there and that the basement -- as a whole -- would not be searched again.

    I already know about FW searching the cellar by himself. There was an officer who tried to search the cellar early in the morning too, but couldn't figure out how to open the door. FW figured it out (or knew how to open it), but couldn't find the light switch.
     
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  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    Yes, I agree this is likely what JR thought, yet we know he was wrong, specifically because he never knew that Fleet White had searched the basement solo.

    Fleet White not finding the light switch does not mean he could not see inside the wine-cellar. When JR found JonBenet he screamed a find, prior to switching the wine-cellar light on!

    Why does this matter, because it suggests JR has staged the wine-cellar discovery.

    Here is the rationale:
    JR is telling the world that he can, with no electric light source, identify JonBenet's body lying inside the wine-cellar.

    Fact: JR had at the this point in time extremely poor eyesight, so poor, he was not allowed by law to pilot his own aircraft, he had to employ a pilot.

    So what JR is claiming is that under the same lighting conditions, JR with poor eyesight, could see something that eluded Fleet White earlier that morning.

    Nobody is expecting either Fleet White or JR to view the wine-cellar contents in sharp relief, with all the contours and edges plainly visible.

    What would have been visible would have been white and pink patches bundled with the outline of JonBenet's body, enough to merit further investigation, this discounts any smell of urine, and a decomposing body.

    Fleet White patently never saw anything suspicious, so returned back upstairs.

    From all this it is possible to suggest between Fleet White's visit, approx 6:40 AM and JR's alleged visit about 11: AM according to his slip in a phone call to JAR saying he found JonBenet that morning, that JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar with the intention of finding her, as per his scream on opening the wine-cellar door, with no light on?

    .
     
  11. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    I lean toward the body being moved there, but we will never know for sure. The only light in that windowless room would have come from the hall. It's impossible to know what could have been seen.

    Yes, it's probable that JR jumped the gun out of panic and stated he found the body too early (i.e. before flipping the switch) -- but again, that doesn't necessarily prove that the body hadn't been there the entire time. I tend to agree that it was moved there from somewhere else, but it's certainly possible it wasn't.

    JR stated that he had checked the basement very early in the morning, correct? So even if he didn't know anyone else (FW, etc.) searched it, it's probable he told police he had already searched there -- either way, the space was accounted for and had been searched already. When LA told him to search it again with FW, he had not planned on that (how could he?).
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    Sure, but John would say that anyway, as part of the staging, i.e. why check if you already know where JonBenet is. Also he gave a time about 10:00 AM. Fleet White visited shortly after he arrived, around 6:45 AM. So I reckon there are too many holes in JR's story.

    1997 Boulder Police Department Interview John Ramsey, Excerpt
    1997 Boulder Police Department Interview John Ramsey, Excerpt
    1997 Boulder Police Department Interview John Ramsey, Excerpt
    According to JR's own version of events Fleet White checked the wine-cellar before JR visited the basement for his first visit. Nowhere does JR say he looked in the wine-cellar!

    JR has to say he checked those doors as he repeated this statement to three different officers that morning, yet note he says nothing about the basement!

    Its possible JonBenet was already stuffed into his car in his garage, and if he had been able to flee by plane he would have driven away with JonBenet?

    No officer actually saw JR checking the basement, JR himself never says he checked the wine-cellar, but get this: when asked by Linda Arndt to check the house from Top to Bottom, JR heads straight to the wine-cellar!

    Steve Thomas in his book highlights Fleet White's visit to the basement precisely because he thinks JR is lying?

    .
     
  13. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    It's possible she was in the car, sure. That's the thing: where could the body have been before being placed in the cellar? I know there was a crawl space in that basement as well.
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,

    Yes, she could have been hidden in the crawl space which was searched at a later date.

    I reckon Steve Thomas really thought the case was JDI, in the above interview quotes those questions posed by Steve Thomas are spaced out, with ST returning to JR's basement visit, e.g. Were the lights on?

    Now if ST thinks JR is an innocent man just looking for his missing daughter why do the lights matter, not unless someone was there before him and left them on, i.e. Fleet White!

    I'm not saying the latter state of the basement lights is fact, just that Steve Thomas patently does not believe John Ramsey. Consider that ST will have asked everyone else the light question and that nobody says they saw JR search the basement and JR never ever claims to have looked in the wine-cellar.

    Its more likely JR visited the basement after being denied his plane flight and after Fleet White had already visited and looked in the wine-cellar. JR being ignorant of the latter decided to move JonBenet to somewhere he could more credibly claim to have found her, the back of his car or the crawl-space are too specific, so he probably wrapped JonBenet in the white blanket and carried her along with the pink nightgown to the wine-cellar, it would only have taken minutes to accomplish, and as Linda Arndt says JR went missing mid-morning.

    Naturally the million dollar question is: who was JR staging for himself, Patsy or Burke?

    If you factor in what LHP has to say about the Ramsey's personal relationship and contrast it with JR's response when asked the same question in interview, he replied everything is fine, no issues, etc.

    So if the case is JDI then Patsy has no real motive to play ball with JR?

    .
     
  15. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Member

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    Why in the world would JR need to go outside and check the garage door? It was closer (and warmer) to open the door to the garage from inside the house and see if the boxes had been moved. What an odd statement for JR to make. There must be more then meets the eye here.

    Excellent catch on the light possibly have been left on in the wine cellar. That would change FW earlier account.

    Obviously JR needed JB to be found. He did not make the call to MA until after she was found. JR stated he needed to make an important trip to Atlanta. Why, I ask? He just found his daughter dead and his first thought is I’ve got to go to Atlanta. The family had intended on flying to Michigan that morning. Who was in Atlanta? JAR and Melinda. JR lawyered up and refused to cooperated with the police until his older children had been cleared. Why, wren’t they both in Atlanta for Christmas? JR and PR made sure they were by Lucinda’s side for support. Why? Why was Melinda’s palm print found on the wine cellar door? What about LHP and family members that had just taken all those trees from the wine cellar not mentioned as palm prints found? Both PR and BR both stated they were in that room on the 24th and 25th?
    Do you suppose perhaps JB was stuffed in the freezer that was just feet away from where she was strangled. It seems unlikely to me that JR would try to move JB from his car to the wine cellar on the 26th. The house was swarming with people. He could have been caught red handed! Oops!
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,
    Its the lights in the basement that Steve Thomas was asking about. He was trying to catch JR out since Steve Thomas knew Fleet White had visited the basement prior to JR, so whatever Fleet White said about the lights would inform Steve Thomas.

    To date BPD have never released Fleet White's account about searching the basement.

    JonBenet could have been hidden anywhere in the basement, nobody did a finger tip search, it was just a look see exercise as she was assumed kidnapped.

    JR is the guy who never went outside as the mail is delivered via the front door letterbox. So why he was wanting investigators to know he was outside is curious?

    My money is on JR moving JonBenet. I'll bet Fleet White thinks the same. He returned back down to the wine-cellar, after finding JonBenet, most likely to consider the lighting conditions and what he could see, contrasting this with his earlier visit.

    He might have missed JonBenet but I doubt it, JonBenet herself might not have been visible but an obvious white and pink bundle would be observable to the naked eye, not to mention any smell of urine or decomposition?

    .
     
  17. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Member

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    UKGuy,
    It all smells fishy to me! Why all the made up stories by the Ramsey’s? I have not reread Steve Thomas’s book since it came out. I studied and researched this case with my mother for years. Took a folder full of notes but tossed them when I concluded that money talks in our judicial system. More so then, than now.
    I still long for justice for little JohnnieB . So I took the case back up again, especially after the new DNA evidence that came to light.
    I still believe without a doubt that RDI. Who did what is questionable; although I lean towards BDI with possible help from DS. Or even JAR. And then the coverup by the parents. I do not understand why JR lawyered up for his kids that were out of state (should have been out of mind). Wanting to keep questions from them at bay, why? Why throw away your friendships and ask them not to speak about the household? JR made some blatant mistakes the 26th. Rushing to the basement and retrieving JR, asking for a flight to Atlanta soon after he brought JB upstairs, asking for his gold clubs, shooting up the remainder of the film left on the camera. I wonder how many people noticed, the notepad, scarf, attaché all being in one of these photos? What I mean by this is that this isn’t a grieving father here. It’s a man with a plan (agenda) if you will. They walk out of that house leaving JB on the floor until late that evening. PR with her purse, fur coat, boots on. JR telling SL I found her @ 11:00. Never a glance back. I know when I lost my mom a few years ago the hardest thing I ever had to do was leave her.
    Recently I got the opportunity to travel to Boulder and you can beat I found my was to 15th street. I must have driven by that house at least 5 times before I realized where it was. It is close to the street (all the photos of the house that day make it seem further away). It is overgrown with huge trees and brush, not to mention the tall gate. I got a few pictures. The files were to big for me to share here, sorry. Thank you for the feed back and input.
     
  18. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the premise that JR "needed" JBR to be found at exactly that moment. Respectfully, I still don't see any reason why he would need her found; or why he would want her found with all of those people present. I mean, if the family was responsible (which I believe), he sure went out of his way to keep JBR hidden for hours while everyone was in the house -- why go to all that trouble?

    To me, it makes more sense that JR only "found" the body because FW was with him. Remember, LA told both he and FW to search the basement together, hours after the basement was already searched by multiple people. I really doubt that JR was counting on being told to search the basement again. JR didn't want FW to find the body before him and/or he panicked because he felt that, since LA told them to "search from top to bottom," he panicked because he knew FW would find it.
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,
    If you read the Ramsey interviews its really some of JR's claims that jump out at you. e.g. JR says :
    June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane
    The closet is the wine-cellar and JR is suggesting he hid stuff in there, i.e. him alone, he that found the body!

    Then there is JR's claim that he moved the Samsonite suitcase from upstairs to downstairs in the basement. Why would he bother, he has a housemaid for that kind of stuff, I doubt BPD believed that at all?

    So that the Ramsey's could control, through their attorneys/lawyers etc, exactly what went into the public domain, they knew they might be dealing with Murder In The First Degree charges.

    Great to hear you made it to Boulder. Its amazing the house has not been demolished, in other famous homicides, e.g. the West's, the local council bulldozed the house and tarmacked it over.

    I'm not certain what the property laws are in Boulder, but in some states you have to tell prospective buyers if anything unusual happened in the house for sale, i.e. a homicide, as this effects the resale value.

    The more notorious the homicide the larger is the depreciation in value, and it never goes away.

    Although there might never be a court case, I think we will find out what happened, as with other famous cases there will be a drip feed of nuggets of information, think about all those jurors who reckon they know who did what and why?

    .
     
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  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    Why would FW prioritize the wine-cellar he had already looked and drawn a blank? FW is just cover for JR's claim that he found JonBenet.

    JR's plan was to hide JonBenet and flee by plane interstate, most likely to Mexico. This was thwarted when he was overheard talking to his pilot.

    So maybe JR moved JonBenet in anticipation of finding her, e.g. finding her in the wine-cellar is more credible than the crawl-space or the boot of his car?

    Did he want to find her to mess up the forensic evidence, or did he just want her found?

    Finding JonBenet was JR's Plan B, not finding her and being left in a house with a dead body does not sound like a good idea?

    The Ramsey's had no way of knowing how it would all pan out, i.e. arrested on the spot, left with a dead body, or fleeing interstate?

    Originally they were prepared to leave without finding JonBenet, abandoning her to slow decomposition, while they contested extradition requests, from wherever they had escaped to?

    Same might apply to Burke Ramsey, he also might have been left behind?

    If JR did move JonBenet into the wine-cellar then I reckon it would not concern him if FW found JonBenet, as all he would want is an independent witness to say she was found, but JR did not know that FW had already looked into the wine-cellar!

    This will be why JR headed straight for the wine-cellar, thinking nobody had looked inside, so he with the very bad eye-vision finds what FW missed earlier that morning?

    Whether JR moved JonBenet or not he knew where she was. In most homicide cases its the killer who finds the body.

    So there is a lot of circumstantial evidence stacked up against JR.

    .
     

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