Mexico - 10 members of Polygamist LeBaron Family murdered, Sonora, Nov 2019 *arrests*

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by SuziQ, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. Periwinkl3

    Periwinkl3 Well-Known Member

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    Rural Mexican Mormons (not just the LeBaron family) are often wealthy and clearly resented in certain communities. Many rural non-Mormon Mexicans are scraping by, and most Americans would flee from the kind of poverty there. Life is bleak in many places. The entire country suffers from weak rule of law. Local LE and govt. officials are understandably fearful and/or corrupt. The federales are the least corrupt and many of them are courageous defenders of their country, but it's dangerous in the extreme. Meanwhile, the Mormons offer the needy a dream of Heaven after earth via their many missionaries if they just convert. And despite their lack of income, they're expected to tithe. It's untenable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019


  2. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    The irony here, for me, personally, is that my Grandmother was born in Mexico, over 100 years ago. Her family had moved from Utah for religious reasons. And moved back to Utah in 1915, because "Mexico was too dangerous".

    Not much has changed since then.
     
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  3. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    Though the Mexican Mormons maybe relatively wealthy from generations of access to US jobs and this could well cause resentment in some, the Mormon Mexicans seem to have a historical method for minimizing it:

    - Live in rural, out of the way areas, keep to themselves, ask for very few concessions from the larger Mexican culture or society, more affluent ones keep any "special fees" (wink nod) for "special things" discrete. Meanwhile internal discipline is kept high- means fewer persistent problem persons negatively interacting with Mexicans.

    In short, my bet is that the historical Mexican Mormons probably had less impact on Mexican society than ethnic Mexicans of the same level of wealth.

    Mexican Mormons of the LeBaron and associated clans are not your average Mormons (As the well.... Mormons can clearly state).

    I don't think the clans send missionaries. Rather they present their spin on Mormonism as an ethnic religion that one is either born into or is not.

    In this respect, they resemble, Orthodox Jews and Amish far more than they resemble the mainstream Mormons. This not to say that there have been no converts- just that converts are few in number and not solicited.

    In the end, whether from lack of missionary interest or a lack of interested females (gee, I wonder why?), my bet is that very few ethnic Mexicans have ever been approached about joining the Mexican Mormons.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  4. Periwinkl3

    Periwinkl3 Well-Known Member

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    While I agree that the LeBaron/other clans are different from mainstream Mormons, they represent a fraction of the problem. The fact is that conversion is at the core of what LDS at large is doing in Mexico. The solicitation is soft, but it's active--schools, homework help, English language classes, fellowship. Clean, shiny fellowship halls and churches attract and impress. Any church willing to come to the poor offers hope. The fact that the Mormons are economically well off makes them stand out. Kidnapping and/or robbing Mormons by cartels and other thugs has become far more common in recent years, and the countryside is full of their isolated hideouts. I know this from Mexican friends whose family member was kidnapped but luckily escaped. The wealthy or those perceived as wealthy are at risk.
     
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  5. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, quite a few Hispanic women have married into the "clan". These men are always looking for "new converts". It hasn't done much to endear them to the locals.
     
  6. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Although the victims were part of a sect, I don't see it as a fundamental point in the murders. Women and children were driving in a convoy and they were shot by drug dealers. Isn't it more likely that the drug dealers made a mistake and thought the convoy was other drug dealers?

    Or, is the theory that drug dealers are now murdering women and children of any religion or no religion?

    Is it assumed that the drug dealers knew the vehicles were filled with children?
     
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  7. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    If the shooters did not realize that the vehicles were filled with women and children, then this has nothing to do with the victims. On the other hand, it was reported that one of the women put her child on the floor of her car, got out of the car, stepped away from the car and was then shot. The infant survived.

    Is there any possibility that the husband wanted to eliminate his wives and simplify his family?
     
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  8. sds71

    sds71 Well-Known Member

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    • Some of the nine women and children who were killed by suspected gunmen in Mexico were shot at point-blank range in Sonora state, Mexico
    • Three mothers and six children were killed by cartel gunmen on Monday, November 4
    • The victims are members of the LeBaron community, a faction of Mormons who moved to Mexico to practice polygamy decades ago
    • Eight children who were also at the scene survived, but five suffered injuries
    • The Mexican government has blamed the attack on cartel groups who mistook the family's vehicles as a rival gangs
    • American officials are currently being barred from investigating the incident
    • All the victims were dual US-Mexican citizens and all are believed to have been members of the extended LeBaron family.
    Victims killed in Mormon massacre were shot at point-blank range by Mexican cartel gunmen | Daily Mail Online
     
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  9. Suglo

    Suglo Well-Known Member

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    Actually in all my reading about them I have found that they did convert quite a few ethnic Mexicans back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Quite a few Mexican women married the leaders of the church and many of the Mexican men who converted were given the leaders’ daughters in marriage. Most of the LeBaron offspring have Mexican siblings. See Anna LeBaron’s and Irene Spencer’s books. Ruth Wariner also mentions it in her book.
     
  10. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    Though this attack was exceptionally brutal, Mexican cartel factions have killed women and children before. One article mentioned a car bomb at a teen age birthday party killing 14.

    As for knowing that the cars were filled with women and children, my guess is that the gun men just knew that they had been ordered to "hit" the Mormons hard and that was going to involve an ambush.

    Thus, they were going to ambush the next convoy entering the Mormon in settlement. It did not matter who was in the convoy- the attack would not be called off. As a result, they were willing to kill women and children, even if the might not have been targeted per se.
     
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  11. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    Mexico has always been in a flux, whether now, or 100 years ago. The Cartels shoot people at will, it is complete anarchy there, which is why so many people seek safety north of the border.

    This isn't an isolated incident. I am not even sure why this has merited as much media coverage as it has, because this is "life as usual".
     
  12. Breezie

    Breezie Well-Known Member

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    American families fleeing Mexico arrive in Arizona days after cartel massacre

    The Arizona Daily Star reported that 18 vehicles carrying about 100 people entered the U.S. via the port of entry in Douglas, Ariz.

    Bryce Langford, whose mother, Dawna Ray Langford, was one of the women killed Monday, told the Daily Star he was on his way to visit his brother at a hospital in Tucson. He said most of the families are traveling to Phoenix, and others are heading to Tucson. They are not sure where they will settle down in the long term.
     
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  13. SuziQ

    SuziQ Well-Known Member

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    Also from your link (so yeah, they are still practicing Polygamy)

    Adrian said that Langford's husband will be leaving for America with one of his other wives and their children.

    He said: 'No way he is going to leave her alone. He has to go to work.'
     
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  14. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    Horribly, their military training might be evident in the photos from the ambush.

    One vehicle had bullet holes in the side, while another had bullet holes in the front windshield.
    This might indicate an 'L' shaped ambush where the attackers attack from the front and from a side simultaneously.

    When used in combat by soldiers or insurgents, gunfire from two directions confuses the target. The tactic also has other advantages. Attackers in the front often 'enfilade' their fire. Small number of attackers can fire at larger number of opponents "down the line"- but defenders can't fire "up the line" with out risking hitting their own side.

    To make a long story short, though one does not need to be 'Napoleon' or 'Rommel' to use 'L' ambushes, it is fairly sophisticated. Thus, its possible use could indicate former infantry soldiers turned narcos.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  15. sds71

    sds71 Well-Known Member

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    Hero boy who survived Mormon massacre in Mexican desert speaks out | Daily Mail Online

    • Devin Langford, 13, was among survivors of the massacre on his family last week
    • He was in a car with his mother and two siblings when the shooting started
    • He said his mom Dawna tried to restart their car and prayed while telling them to 'get down' before being killed
    • Once the shooting had stopped, he was ordered to get out of the car and lie on the ground
    • Devin said the gunmen then drove away, leaving him and four of his siblings helpless in the desert
    • They were all 'bleeding really badly' but he was unharmed so began walking to find help
    • Devin said on Monday he feared he was being followed the whole way and that he too would die
     
  16. Curious21

    Curious21 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!! This kind of cartel violence has been going on for many years. No one is safe there, children or women. What about the hundreds of Mexican women that have gone missing or have been murdered in Juarez since 2005 and still on going? You don't hear about it in the U.S. media, because I guess it's none of "our concern or people" even though Juarez is a border town to El Paso.

    Same thing with these sad, violent murders. I just think it's being noticed now because they were white Americans. I don't even think if it they had been Latin Americans it would receive as much news coverage or statements from Trump.....
     
  17. jaejae

    jaejae Former Member

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  18. CrimeDawg123

    CrimeDawg123 Well-Known Member

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  19. LietKynes

    LietKynes "Law is the ultimate science" Liet Kynes

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    ^^^ What are you implying ?

    Do you think that this was (Ervil) Mormon on Mormon violence ?
    Were they were trying to escape polygamy ?
    Is it possible that they were forced out of the vehicles and executed -- but not by the cartels ?

    @otto ; Curious what you're saying in your post.
     
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  20. OsoTejano

    OsoTejano Well-Known Member

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    Looks like some arrests were made in this case yesterday. The ‘El Mayo’ referenced in the article is not the leader of the Sinoloa cartel, but is instead the local chief of the La Linea organization in Janos Chihuahua.

    Cliff notes version is that 3 people including Mario H. (aka El Mayo) we’re arrested early on Sunday 12/1 for their alleged involvement in the massacre after an investigation by the FGR.

    Information obtained from another person arrested earlier in November in connection with the massacre implicated those who were arrested Sunday morning.

    The FBI assisted and the Sonora authorities shared information also.

    Cae ‘El Mayo’ por masacre, dice la FGR
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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