Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by tamsidea, Jul 23, 2021.
?? Daily FAIL Online?
I agree, it’s certainly an injury, and the back of his head / neck are bruised up. It really looks like he was beaten to me. Why did Mexican authorities say no injuries to his head?
Why refuse to show them the surveillance videos ?
I would be really cautious about playing amateur forensic pathologist. There are things that happen to a body after death, like blood pooling, and after asphixiation, like tissue turning purple due to lack of oxygen or something, that can look like bruising.
More important indications of violence would be open wounds or cracked skull and broken bones.
Thank you. This brings me to tears, for it's so utterly sad. I pray I can describe what I am seeing accurately to all and also respect Mr. Snow in death as in life.
Some caveats to the photos the family chose to allow Daily Mail to use:
--We do not know how long after death each photo was taken. There is no proper documentation of the date or time on each photo.
--The entire body torso ( minus the genitalia) should be photographed, both anterior and posterior, and on each side. This could have been done with a swimsuit on the body for decent modesty's sake.
-- Hands and feet should be photographed to show the presence or absence of defensive wounds. This includes his fingernails. The forearms should likewise be photographed to show the presence or absence of defensive wounds. This is absent. It would have likely proven or disproven whether he was stuck in a small opening through his own efforts or was in a fight, if able to fight back.
For the rest of my post, I am going to describe what I see and offer an OPINION if it fits into the " Stuck in the window and could not breathe" vs. " He was attacked and beaten to death." YOUR opinion is just as valid as MINE, and may differ diametrically. Let me say now that I accept and agree that we should have differing opinions, and no one here knows what happened. I am not posting as anyone except a nurse who's seen every type of trauma possible, including countless beatings of children, women, and men, and a few rare manual/ mechanical constriction injuries just short of fatal strangulation. Thank you in advance for your understanding of limitations.
-- The head area: Obviously, the anterior head has a discolored ridge. This is a pattern consistent with what we call " molding" of the skull, and it occurs from pressure exerted against the head for a long time, as in hours in the same place. It would be present if he had pushed his head hard against one area of a solid structure for an extended time. If he had lived, it would have subsided much as a bruise subsides. It's more fluid accumulation and constriction than an actual wound. I do NOT KNOW if this could be a strike wound as one would see from a nightstick or rifle butt. It is possible that there is are skull fractures underneath. We are hampered by a lack of photos of the entire face, and of the neck anteriorly. I support the privacy afforded him and not seeing his face, postmortem, though.
I think it's possible that he may have lay unconscious, then died with his head resting or pressed into a very hard surface which was unyielding vs a whack with a baseball bat or other weaponized long linear object. The injury does not preclude the forcing of his head into a space by other persons. This object or surface could have continued to leave but not add to the molding ( the indentation and look of reddened skin) after breathing had stopped.
-- There is what looks like a whitish area above one eyebrow. The area is " scaly" for lack of a better term, much like a scab, which he didn't have in life. Because of the image just across the midline, which looks like imperfect, even bizarre photo editing, I am discounting this image as a wound or abrasion. It's not anatomically correct bilaterally, and the easiest explanation is a photo editing error which wasn't caught.
I'm just going to say it. The left above- eyebrow area appears to have a heavy whitish bunch of skin.
The right upper eyebrow area shows what looks to me like a graying eye, with an off center pupil, not of normal size. ( I do not believe this is a wound that looks like an eyeball, truly). Thus, there is a serious photo deficit in the lower portion which I have to discount
-- Next photo: I believe the 2 roundish and 1 half moon spots on his upper back are from whatever his back lay against. This could be beginning ( or remaining) livor mortis, as well, which is usually more purple, but may have had color adjustment made to give to the family.
Are these surface red spots from fists? I don't know. There is a darker very round bruise near the right shoulder ( on his back). This injury to the shoulder is not inconsistent with a fall from a distance at some point, with a bruise to his shoulder, and possibly a fracture or at displacement. This could also be from a beating or a fight, since it's not just red rounds, but a darker bruise with what I believe is a shoulder deformity not due to postmortem positioning. There is some question in my mind whether some of this was not careful postmortem positioning. I've never looked specifically at a shoulder deformity on a deceased person's body.
-- It is possible, looking at these photos, that the right shoulder is displaced or fractured with a round, darker bruise close to the shoulder area. The muscle pattern is not consistent from side to side, and since he doesn't appear to have excess adipose tissue, it's muscles. I do not know if this is from a beating or fight, or from trying to extricate himself hard enough to break his shoulder.
It's also possible that whomever got him out of the window accidentally or purposefully fractured his shoulder to facilitate extrication. I don't know how difficult the extrication was and can't say with a degree of certainty.
-- The hand shown is in the approximate last position it was in when he was alive, and we can clearly see that the fingers are all in a flexed, half- grasping position. Once rigor mortis dissipates, the hand would relax into more of a neutral position. I believe this is the position his hand was in when he died, and it shows that at least one hand was grasping something, IMO.
It is possible the hand had been in a fist if he had been fighting. We know he was fighting for his life at some point, but there is disagreement as to how and why and where. His wedding band is missing and there is a visible tan line there.
The inner thigh bruise which is high on the thigh and is not labeled as Right upper thigh is linear, you can put a ruler slightly on the diagonal down the bruise. Fists don't produce linear bruises, so I believe this is from skidding/ sliding very hard unexpectedly down a wall, falling in a stairwell, that sort of injury.
--Outer Right thigh bruise- This is the suspicious bruise, IMO, above all else. There are 2 things which immediately come to mind. One is brass knuckles punching into his skin and muscle tissue.
The other is a circular metal faucet handle, such as we usually have near our outdoor faucets, or in another type of unsophisticated work space. Approximately half of it could have caused the deep bruise, if he fell unevenly or was shoved onto a faucet somewhere.. IDK. I do not know the diameter, so am unable to give any other causes. I do not believe an unprotected hand hitting him in this manner would have escaped unbroken. It's also not a usual place for a person to sustain bruises in a fight, from my professional experience. I see heads, hands, arms with wounds in a fight. If the person is kicked or beaten unconscious, bruises are still likely to be upper torso unless the motivation for the beating was sexually motivated. Then, the area of the body located inside and close to the shorts is the focus, and the method of injury is overwhelmingly kicking or the use of an object like a baseball bat, not manual punching with one's hands and fists.
SUMMARY- Some of the bruises, especially the cluster bruise on the Right Upper Thigh, do appear to possibly be fresh knuckle bruises. Some of the bruises could be from either fists or his own struggling with and against his own body to try to get leverage, or to form a fulcrum. I do not believe any cuts are consistent with use of a knife or other weapon, but are consistent with accidental self- injury that fatal night.
-- I cannot discount that he could have fallen hard onto concrete or metal surfaces during the evening, having have had multiple stumbles and hitting his arms and legs against hard surfaces while intoxicated. Or have fallen and tried to catch himself, whether successful or not.
"Was he beaten?" Taken as a whole, one could say he might have been in a fight or struggle. Taken separately, only a few bruises have the possible appearance of a " beating" or " fight bruise" to me. They are over the area close to the right shoulder, which I believe is displaced from the joint or fractured. The other is the cluster bruise on the photo labeled "right upper thigh."
My impression of the total peripheral cuts and bruises- I believe he likely had fallen, then kicked his legs really hard against immovable hard structural features of a building while trying to get out the window, as he was fighting against an immobile object, a window in a building, for survival. Just to breathe in and out.
I do not believe anyone tried to force him in or out of a WINDOW, but he may have been forced alive to lie against other uncomfortable surfaces by unknown persons for unknown reasons. ( There was no ransom, for example, so why keep him alive long enough to produce a dent that stayed on his head after death?).
I think it's likely that he was the accidental victim of getting stuck and hurting himself, then dying, from the constriction against his respiratory muscles and lungs. He could have been assaulted and beaten while intoxicated and STILL ended up in the bathroom window. One does not preclude the other, but the photographs do not show marks of handcuffs, tape, rope burns, anything used to restrain a healthy muscular man. I see no indication of manual restraints used in a kidnapping type crime.
Rest in peace, sir. I viewed his photos after prayer, and I have prayed for his eternal peace since viewing. This is very disturbing to me, as I'm sure it is to you, as well. It is my sincere hope that I have been respectful, while also using familiar terms with the descriptions of what I believe I am seeing.
I am imperfectly imperfect, for sure, so your impressions may be entirely different, and I respect this entirely.
I am bowing out once again. I am disturbed by violent deaths, and see images unseen by human eyes.
Assuming the latest DM news report is solid, to me, it just brought up more questions. My random thoughts- MOO:
- This is the first I've heard of the two getting into an argument before the wife went up to bed. Which may not mean anything at all, but just an observation there.
- The $100 missing from his wallet could have been stolen or he could have spent it or even lost it himself.
- The rubber wedding ring was missing. Stolen by someone who didn't realize it had no value or did he take it off himself?
- Who specifically gave the Daily Mail the photos and why?
- Why did the wife decline to get a US autopsy and get the body cremated? Just because it would take a week and cost more to transport? Also, was it stated that she would have also had to remain in Mexico for that week? Or just a hasty decision made during a horrific time for her? Or...?
- No idea what to think of the injuries. Blood can pool after death, he may have gotten injuries struggling in the window and intoxicated people stumble around a lot. It's also possible he got into an altercation of some kind earlier in the night but that it was unrelated to his death. Or...?
- I wonder if this will be the end of it or if further info. will be forthcoming. Maybe US law enforcement getting involved now or people coming forward who may have seen something?
The big bruising on his left thigh and the smaller one on his right seem to hint at prolonged pressure on these parts of his upper legs, possibly to manoeuvre himself in a sidewards position. This would be consistent with Elijah trying to take maximal advantage of the diagonal width of the window.
Just speculating, of course.
@SherryLock I must confess I find some of the family's moves following his death a bit odd. Not victim or family shaming, but their actions (a quick cremation, pushing a narrative, sharing autopsy photos with a British rag...) make me scratch my head.
@SeekingJana - thank you for your excellent analysis. Very interesting to read one's professional opinion on the autopsy pictures.
@Dutcher- Re "pushing a narrative." Thank you. I thought something along those lines too but couldn't think of what to call it.
Also, it's not always clear what the wife's actions or the wife's father's actions not to mention the confusion with the news reports.
I don’t understand how a family can believe that their loved one was murdered and that the authorities were not being truthful regarding the circumstances and then allow a cremation to occur in Mexico. I do realize it isn’t my place to understand and that grief and not wanting to delay the inevitable may have been a factor in wanting to move things along. However, I do believe that since he was cremated, they lost the opportunity for some legitimate results/answers from an autopsy occurring in the U.S.
I’m not wanting to be disrespectful, that is not my goal here. I’m just quite dumbfounded about it all.
I still don't understand how he went into the window feet first? Was he lowering himself from above?
@SeekingJana I'm just dumbfounded at your remarkable analysis of what could have happened, and your impartiality with respect to where the evidence might lead. Also your very clear respect and compassion for the family and for the remains of ES.
IMO it was an accidental death by someone who was intoxicated, but that's only based on what I feel is true according to the evidence to date. If it turns out he was murdered then obviously I will accept that as the truth. I agree with @PoppyJune that it doesn't seem reasonable IMO to distrust the Mexican authorities yet allow a cremation there, when an autopsy in America might give them a clearer answer. I'm also curious as to why a kidnapping would not result in a ransom demand.
I do know that I could never, ever be a nurse and witness the things you see every day. IMO you showed deep knowledge and respect, and carefully explained what you saw in the photos so that dummies like me could understand. Thank you.
Yes, extremely concerned they didn’t have an autopsy here in the states. I realize the wife was in a state of shock and grief. Perhaps she didn’t have a strong support system from her family, or others, at home. If so, very unfortunate, imo.
Yes, I’m one who still believes there could have been some foul play involved. It could have been as simple as him spouting off in the bar to the wrong person. Or even the bar staff... who knows, could he have become belligerent?. I witnessed this kind of thing a few times in my younger years. It just happens . And if one gets out of hand, it can quickly take a turn for the worst. Jmo
And his $100.00 was stolen? Start there. But will they?..... I personally, very unfortunately, doubt it will happen.
Not only that, but head up according to the analysis of some here. What an absolutely awkward and uncomfortable position to go through a window. Makes no sense to me.
I can say I'd now go to Cancun and drink the drinks and walk on the beach, and just be an aware but happy tourist. A sober one with a sober spouse.
Oh wow. I have no idea what to believe. The whole thing is just bizarre. I can't believe the hotel bar didn't have cameras to at least see if he left with anyone. Did they talk to any guests who were at the bar that evening if they saw anything? It's just really sad.
Clarification: Drinking the drinks such as bottled water, colas, juices, and mocktails. I chose many years ago not to ever smoke or drink alcohol or coffee. ( Not LDS, though, just personal preferences).
I don't understand either, but it sounds like the family is regretting that decision. They may have just not been thinking in the right frame of mind or still believed at that point that they would get answers from the hotels and authorities? They may have been dealing with so much shock and grief and disbelief that their immediate mindset was just getting the F out of Mexico and home to the kids and family.
From the Daily Mail article:
He said Jamie decided to have the body cremated, saying that's what her husband had wanted.
They discussed transporting the body back to Texas for an independent autopsy. But authorities said that would delay the release another week.
'We were trying to get out of Mexico,' Oujesky noted, though he now is second-guessing that decision.
I do not, for all the goodness in the world, see how his head and arms being outside the window caused him to either suffocate from the position or to die from any related cause.
He could have taken one arm out of a 24 inch window with his head. The other arm might have been injured ( I believe his right shoulder was injured already).
This is not true to form, this is not what getting caught in something and having it squeeze the respiratory muscles and lungs looks like!!! His chest is not compressed from front to back, he only had to drop his head and one arm inside the window, likely hurting the other arm, and fall to the floor to live.
Can someone post the fireman in the ladder video? Show the shoulder and arm raised on top of the body, shoulder and arm underneath to assist on the floor?
Something is WAY off, IMO. So what if he might have fallen a few feet on the way down? He would have lived. A suffocation death is horribly painful.
I do not believe this man in this position suffocated, IMO.
IMO, with great respect and humility and also huge amounts of alarm and disbelief at this point.
Also, the media or someone is doling these photos out little by little for shock value. IF the Daily Mail has 100 photos, they will usually post 100 photos. NOTE- this is in relation to the photos published in a Mexican tabloid. We must be mindful of valid vs. posed and sensationalized photos.
Same here. IMO, he was climbing out of the window. The family really needs to explore whether he got locked inside the bathroom by accident. It happens, it happened to me.
I realized by posters that his body was cremated in Mexico. I can never look into people's head and neither on their bank account....repatriating a body probably costs a lot of money. But if you really think this was a murder, foul play involved...I'm sure people would help you to raise the money needed.....fi the fire department, knowing from experience how close they are. Or am I totally mistaken? So very sorry for what happened and the loss for everybody involved....