MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

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Kristin Esq.

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I am a bit worried about the CPS involvement. If Ethan was neglected as a child, it may go to his defense. It may bolster the case against the parents, but I’m not sure of that either. If they were already neglecting their son, would they have been aware of his emotional and mental status? They should have been as his parents, but I can envision this backfiring legally. As in, Ethan had issues due to parental neglect and parents were not aware, because.. they were neglectful.

I understand what you're coming from, but remember the press conference. Ethan planned it and he was going to enjoy it.
 

LMDlong

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The school was unaware that Ethan received hand gun for Christmas four days earlier, but the parents knew.
I agree with you that the school was unaware that he received the hand gun “four days earlier” . Before Ethan’s parents got to the school when the counselor was talking to him about the drawing, Ethan said that he and his family did go shooting together as a hobby. IMO at that point the counselor’s foot was in the door to ask more questions such as about what kind of guns they shoot, how often they go shooting etc .
 

dotr

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Rbbm, lengthy article.
07lerner-image2-articleLarge-v2.jpg

People in Oxford, Mich., held a vigil last Tuesday after a shooting at Oxford High School. For American teachers, the scene has become all too familiar.Credit...Nick Hagen for The New York Times
Dec 7 2021
Opinion | Will My Students Ever Know a World Without School Shootings?
''By Sarah Lerner
Ms. Lerner is a teacher at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., and the editor of “Parkland Speaks,” a book of eyewitness accounts and other recollections by survivors of the 2018 Parkland shooting.''

''I was left thinking about how teachers try to look out for their students, and can still be powerless to stop tragedy, when I read in a Facebook group about a student opening fire last week at Oxford High School in Michigan, killing four people and injuring several others. My Facebook group was for teachers, like me, who survived the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida nearly four years ago. I was on campus on that day, when a former student opened fire, killing 17, injuring 17 and traumatizing an entire community.

Reading the accounts of what happened at Oxford High School, I noticed examples of teachers trying to do the right thing, raising concerns to the officials who were supposed to act. But at the same time, teachers are left with the horrifying reality that they can do only so much as a line of defense to protect their students. Once again, a child gained access to a lethal weapon. Once again, he was able to bring it to campus.

After 20 years of teaching, I’m unclear about how teachers are supposed to continue teaching when so much more is being asked of us, often without training or the proper resources. We are expected to be mental health counselors, social workers, psychologists, security guards and so much more for our students.
Just look more closely at what happened at Oxford High School.''
 

Doghairrules

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I am a bit worried about the CPS involvement. If Ethan was neglected as a child, it may go to his defense. It may bolster the case against the parents, but I’m not sure of that either. If they were already neglecting their son, would they have been aware of his emotional and mental status? They should have been as his parents, but I can envision this backfiring legally. As in, Ethan had issues due to parental neglect and parents were not aware, because.. they were neglectful.
But won’t the question be more along the lines of, “would a reasonable parent have been aware?” Surely being neglectful is not a defense?

And also the more that comes out about these “parents” the more I think MacDonald’s ace in the hole may be that the parents actually lied about the gun in that fateful meeting with the school. Because as others have pointed out, it makes no sense that the school didn’t ask. So what if they asked if EC had a gun and all three said he didn’t? MOO, IMO, THEORY ONLY
 

Boxer

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I agree with you that the school was unaware that he received the hand gun “four days earlier” . Before Ethan’s parents got to the school when the counselor was talking to him about the drawing, Ethan said that he and his family did go shooting together as a hobby. IMO at that point the counselor’s foot was in the door to ask more questions such as about what kind of guns they shoot, how often they go shooting etc .
MOO
I honestly think its too much to ask of schools to be perfect in assessing threats.

Here we have a student being taught to lie, getting an expensive hand gun for Christmas, <modsnip - no link>
 
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RANCH

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BetteDavisEyes

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The Oxford County School District has officially declined the Michigan Attorney General's offer to conduct an independent investigation into what led up to the shooting. "I am extremely disappointed," AG Dana Nessel says.

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/1468206141134016513

I'm disappointed, too. Having been a teacher and my husband having served two 4-year terms on our local school board, neither of us were eager to jump on the "blame the school" bandwagon. That said, the fact that the school district wants to hire its own third-party investigative team suggests that they might want to control the narrative and outcome of said investigation. Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. JMO
 
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Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats

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I am a bit worried about the CPS involvement. If Ethan was neglected as a child, it may go to his defense. It may bolster the case against the parents, but I’m not sure of that either. If they were already neglecting their son, would they have been aware of his emotional and mental status? They should have been as his parents, but I can envision this backfiring legally. As in, Ethan had issues due to parental neglect and parents were not aware, because.. they were neglectful.
A good point but I think his mental state will see keep him confined for a long time. The lawyers on here can comment if this is accurate, but I read an article that being found not guilty by insanity can mean even longer confinement. It’s up to the courts discretion whether you’re released or not, there’s no finite ending date and
most are behind bars for the rest of their life.
 

Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats

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It is legal in Michigan to work at age 14.
However, it’s not legal to go to work drunk anywhere, at any age, to the best of my knowledge.

https://www.teagr.org/teaimis/downloads/SupervisionofMinors.pdf
I would think if he had shown up drunk at work his drunk behavior would’ve been obvious from the moment he walked through the door. Their boss was not shy about discussing the marijuana situation with his half brother, I would think she would have said if she suspected he was drunk.
 

Iona

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I'm not the OP, but I took "pause and think about that" to mean that the Crumbleys hired a high profile local criminal defense firm to represent them, while their son most likely has court-appointed counsel. They are in CYA mode and probably don't care what happens to Ethan. JMO

Smith Lehman, PC (defendingabuse.com)

Exactly… that is the point I was trying to make.
 

MimosaMornings

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I would think if he had shown up drunk at work his drunk behavior would’ve been obvious from the moment he walked through the door. Their boss was not shy about discussing the marijuana situation with his half brother, I would think she would have said if she suspected he was drunk.
Maybe he took a bottle from home to work with him and was drinking while at work? Sneak out to take a shot, perhaps true on an empty stomach.
 
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Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats

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I agree with you that the school was unaware that he received the hand gun “four days earlier” . Before Ethan’s parents got to the school when the counselor was talking to him about the drawing, Ethan said that he and his family did go shooting together as a hobby. IMO at that point the counselor’s foot was in the door to ask more questions such as about what kind of guns they shoot, how often they go shooting etc .
Add in the ammunition search and the drawing, in my opinion more than enough reasonable cause to alert LE, specifically ask about gun ownership/access and to search his backpack. MOO
 

Iona

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not one iota surprised that their minor son is left with a public defender appointment while they hire high profile defense attorneys. The attorney are likely doing this in part for the publicity. They are no strangers to that since they defended Larry Nasser previously :confused:. Wouldn't shock me if they are doing it pro se for just that reason. But Ethan, nope, he gets the luck of the draw.

I wish I had TOS friendly words for the Crumbley parents.
Indeed… I have no words for those particular specimens…
 

BetteDavisEyes

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