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MI MI - Detroit, WhtFem Skeletal UP8175, 25-45, found in alley, Mar'09

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by CarlK90245, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    NamUs UP Case 8175 https://identifyus.org/cases/8175

    Unidentified White Female
    * Found March 26, 2009 on 12933 St. Louis St. in Detroit, MI
    * Estimated Year of Death: 2008 - 2009

    Vital Statistics
    * Estimated age: 25-45 years old
    * Approximate Height: 67 inches (5'7")
    * Distinguishing Characteristics: Light brown hair - long, fine and possibly reddish in color.
    * Dentals: Available
    * Clothing/Jewelry: No clothing. Victim was naked.
    * DNA: Available, Not yet submitted.

    Case History
    Partially skeletal remains of a nude white female were found in an alley in the city of Detroit.

    _______

    I saw this case in NamUs with the only images being a skull and a hair mass (and a description of the hair mass), so I decided to take another shot at a facial reconstruction of a skull.

    No guarantee that this is what she looks like in an overall sense, but this is probably pretty close to how her head shape and positioning of her features look. She had a very small forehead, moderately prominent cheekbones, and a prominent chin. The teeth were lost postmortem, so she apparently had her front teeth prior to her death.

    [​IMG]

    Here's the video showing the overlay of the skull to the recon.
    Detroit White Female Skull Reconstruction - YouTube
     
  2. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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  3. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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  4. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Judith Ann Mattise is a little older than the estimate, and the time frame is too long, but otherwise, she looks pretty good.

    Her height is spot-on, and her car was found in Detroit.

    http://www.nampn.org/cases/matisse_judith.html

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    The overlay is a little difficult due to the forward tilt of her head compared to the backward tilt of the skull.

    ETA: I just sent an e-mail on this possible match to Trooper Krebs of the MI State Police. She is a forensic artist, so it should be interesting what she has to say.
     
  5. Reannan

    Reannan Seek Brotherhood, Cherish Solitude

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    Looking forward to hearing what you find out CarlK90245!!! Great work by the way!
     
  6. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I gave my recon an alternative hairstyle more similar to Judith's hair. A woman with that short of a forehead and that large a chin probably would want to puff her hair up to make her face look more normally proportioned.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    ETA: IMO, the color of her hair supports the possibility that she is older. That does not appear to be a natural hair color, and it appears to me to be more typical for older women who dye their grey hair. A natural blonde or a natural brunette would probably not choose that color to dye her hair.
     
  7. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

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    Good observation on the hair color. I was going to suggest that it had been dyed. And if it was colored, the color might have changed over the years.

    She really does have an unusually low forehead, doesn't she? But with the changed hairstyle, Judith does look close.
     
  8. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I received a reply from Trooper Krebs:

     
  9. webrocket

    webrocket New Member

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    how about Margaret Leader, missing from Chicago March 2005? had substance abuse problems and had worked as a prostitute. was almost 26 when last seen.

    https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1697/45/

    had brown hair and stated height was 5'9". some of the pictures of her show her with two-tone coloring.
     
  10. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I tried doing an overlay of the skull to her mugshot. Although she looks fairly close from the eyes down, Margaret's forehead is way too tall to be this Jane Doe.
     
  11. webrocket

    webrocket New Member

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    not to knock the City of Detroit, but it is not exactly a mecca for much these days. for a woman of this demographic to be found there dead means to me that she was either taken there to be dumped or lived a marginal existence in the city. if dumped, then I don't think she was transported all that far. if she was marginally surviving there, she could have done so for a few years before her death.

    are you saying Carl that the facial structure of the UID is too different to be a match with Margaret Leader?
     
  12. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If you look at the Google Maps overhead, you can see that the remains were found about a block from a very industrial area with auto wrecking yards and obviously low-budget real estate (even by Detroit standards).

    And yes, when I try to fit the skull to her photo, it is much too different.

    When you size the images so that they are of comparable size, and fit her eyes into the sockets, and align the septum of her nose to the nasal spine on the skull, the top of Margaret's head extends significantly above the top of the skull, and her jaws are also slightly broader.
     
  13. webrocket

    webrocket New Member

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    there is also Kelli Rice, missing on March 2, 2008 from TN under suspicious circumstances, i.e. last seen with 2 drug dealers.

    https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/2795/11/

    she was listed as 5'9", 25 y.o., light brown hair (dyed blonde at the time of her disappearance) and had at least one child.
     
  14. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    I just have two questions for here.
    1)Who determined the hailine?
    2)How do you "align" the skull to the face when the skull is tilted backward? Okay...three questions.
    3)Are you saying this is scientific and how it is done by forensic experts?:waitasec: Okay...*sigh* 4 questions?
    4) Why do the forensic folks use all those pins and calculations for muscle placement if it can be drawn on the skull?
     
  15. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    (1) I did. BTW, Even with the experts, it's only a guess.
    (2) I acknowledged that weakness in post #4 when I was discussing the comparison to Judith Matisse. The difference in tilt is not significant enough in the case of Margaret Leader to explain the considerable difference that I alluded to in post #10. There is only one photo available, so I make a judgement call with what I have.
    (3) No, I never said that it was scientific. Very little of what is said on an internet chat board should be characterized as "scientific".
    (4) Because they are experts. But since none of the experts have given this a shot (and likely won't), I gave it mine. And BTW, Trooper Krebs, who is an expert, spoke favorably of it. Maybe she is too polite.

    BTW, if you don't like my recons, you are perfectly free to work with the unaltered photo of the scull and use it in whatever way you see fit.
     
  16. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    I asked these questions because they are most important when determining the accuracy of a visual by which researchers make a comparison.
    Thanks for the offer, but again, this is the most critical part of building a UP case for the purpose of finding the missing. I would never undertake such a project. I am not trained in that field and have no problem working within my own limitations. I assumed questions were welcomed by all here.:twocents:
     
  17. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Here's where the skeletal remains were found. The "alleyway" is completely overgrown with trees, so much so, that it appears difficult even to pass through.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...2.41412,-83.039925&spn=0.000706,0.001367&z=20

    This Google Earth Street-View shot is taken from Rupert Street. The address given in NamUs is around the corner, second house down on St. Luis Street (adjacent to the corner house shown on the left in this Street-View).

    Actually, the neighborhood does not appear that run-down although the junkyard district is only a block away. Most of the houses on St. Louis Street, although small, do appear to be well kept up, the lawns are mowed, and the cars in the neighborhood are in respectable condition.
     
  18. Reannan

    Reannan Seek Brotherhood, Cherish Solitude

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    CarlK90245 and Mensch, the discussion you guys just had is one of the reasons I value WS's!!!! Mensch, the questions you asked are valid, and Carl, the answers gave were perfect. Carl, I think your use of computer graphics to recreate a face from a skull is awesome!!! I would love to try that sometime!! Mensch, I greatly value the fact that you are questioning the accuracy of what is being done. Even under the best of circumstances, I believe the recreation of the facial features of an UID is as much art as it is science. I believe questions of all sorts always make us better because we never become complacent. One of the other reasons I love WS's is because we never become complacent about victims of crime. This woman deserves to have someone care about her even after her death. SO many victims out there!!! We need an entire WS's army of people who care! Thanks to ALL of you!!!!
     
  19. reasypeasy

    reasypeasy Member

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  20. mtrooper

    mtrooper Verified SAR

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    OT- Just wanted to say that Sarah Krebs is kicking @ss and taking names. Michigan had less than 20 unidentified persons in Namus up until oh about 4-5 months ago. And now we are up to 60 some. Nice. I am so happy that someone who has the authority will finally enter these nameless faces into Namus. GO KREBS!
     
    carbuff likes this.

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