Miss Universe to Allow Transgender Contestants

[Nova]

In my opinion, male/female body type is all about the chromosomes.

otto, this is a more complicated issue than you seem to realize and I admit I am not qualified to explain it fully. But secondary sex characteristics depend heavily on hormones, which vary greatly from individual to individual and may also be artificially manipulated at the onset of puberty.

We've had threads where this was discussed at length by parents of children who had such issues. I'm sorry I don't understand the science well enough to explain it better.

Chromosomes have an impact, of course, but they are really only the beginning. (I think geneticists are coming to this conclusion about all genes. They may dictate potential, but various other factors intervene to make the eventual individual.)

(ETA Donjeta said all this better above.)

 

[LunaticFringe]

Have you seen her?

I've seen her.She kind of reminds me of Ivanka Trump to be perfectly honest.I never in a million years would have ever guessed she was born a male.

Now my husband says that once he heard her voice it kinda sounded funny but other than that he would have never guessed it either.

 

[LunaticFringe]

otto, this is a more complicated issue than you seem to realize and I admit I am not qualified to explain it fully. But secondary sex characteristics depend heavily on hormones, which vary greatly from individual to individual and may also be artificially manipulated at the onset of puberty.

We've had threads where this was discussed at length by parents of children who had such issues. I'm sorry I don't understand the science well enough to explain it better.

Chromosomes have an impact, of course, but they are really only the beginning. (I think geneticists are coming to this conclusion about all genes. They may dictate potential, but various other factors intervene to make the eventual individual.)

(ETA Donjeta said all this better above.)

The thread about hormone therapy for children in the private forums was a very educational eye opening experience for me.I learned quite a bit.I now see things differently and more positive for transgendered people.

 

[Allusonz]

Is there any known "disorder" case where women had surgery to have male genetalia attached ... and other amputations? Is this a "disorder" that only afflicts males?

I'm thinking that if the judges of a "beautiful women" competiton view a male body-type as more beautiful than a female body-type (regardless of how that person feels inside), then there's a problem. I have to wonder why this "woman", trapped in a man's body, would be considered to be a more beautiful woman than a "real woman".

No it is not strictly male.

It happens with both male and female.

 

[Allusonz]

The experience that Nova refers to is my daughers. There is a discussion regarding this in the Parking Lot but I will repost what happened to my family. She just recently underwent her first surgery and trust me this surgery is not a cake walk or a pie throwing contest. It is a medical issue.



Originally Posted by Allusonz
I have followed this discussion with great interest and I am going to share my experience from a different perspective and something I was faced with. I am the proud adoptive mom of a son and a daughter. My daughter at the age of 9 months was scheduled for surgery when all heck broke loose the day of the surgery. Outwardly everything appeared normal for my daughter. The surgeon knew immediately that there were problems once he started the surgery and made the choice to cancel it till he could do additional testing and consultations. I was informed that my daughter was born without a vagina, uterus, and ovaries. They then wanted to test her to see if genetically she was a male or female which required her receiving shots of testosterone daily over the course of many weeks.

When the genetic testing came back I know my jaw hit the floor. I was then asked whether I wanted to raise my 9 month old daughter to be female or male. Specialists explained to me that she would never have children, would require hormones to develop, and would require 3 surgeries to construct a vagina if she remained female. The options if I chose male were as well as complicated. I asked for and received opinions from other specialists worldwide. They as well explained to me the possible physiological issues she could and would face.

The dilemma I faced was I could potentially be making a decision that would affect her for the rest of her life and ultimately was not my decision to make. It was my daughters.

One of the specialists asked me if I would like to meet a very special young lady and it was that young lady all of 13 years old and her very supportive parents that helped me determine the path I chose. They shared their story with me and it was then that I realized that this decision did not have to be made now. They opened my eyes to a very different world and helped me understand that my daughter would guide me and over the years she has. We remain in contact with this family and I see a very well adjusted young lady that is doing exceptional things with her life.

I chose to raise her as a female with the support of many professionals of whom we both have come to trust implicitly. Ultimately, it was my child that chose her gender and is comfortable with whom she is. She has a unique support system with various professionals of whom we have both come to trust.

If at any point in time if I had of felt I had chosen the wrong path I would not hesitate to change that path if she so chose but I would of made an informed choice based on all the information I had regarding this and with the advice of specialists with whom we trusted. It would never of been a decision made lightly but to see the various perspectives I have on this topic I can assure you the fact that this couple just happen to be a lesbian couple has probably played no role . I would hate to be judged this harshly by people that did not know my families circumstances or advice and support we received and she continues to receive which was completely out of my control.



I am quoting off my own post simply for the fact to keep them both together I hope no one minds

I am getting the impression that many do not quite understand the process with respect to this. I will also state up front that my daughter has been documented from the time we found out and she is a case study and will be for the rest of her life. Let me also mention that my daughter was born missing her knee joint and femur thus they amputated at 6 months as her leg would never of grown. She is a knee disartic and wears a full leg prosthetic.

This process is NOT a bed of roses and I have had to do a lot of soul searching as well as research. The hurdles we have faced as a family I would not even attempt to try and list.

This is not something where you wake up one morning decide to change your sex then go to your neighborhood clinic, be approved, go on massive doses of hormones/blockers, and then be sent on your merry way. This involves professionals who have followed her for years and will continue to do so. There is a team of specialists and a vetting process which is long and lengthy and the team must all be in agreement. They must then be seen by a 2nd set of professionals, go through the entire process again, and they must agree with the recommendation of the first team.

Let me stress here it is NOT the parents that determine whether an individual receives the treatments/surgeries. It does not matter whether you are the biological or adopted parents. Let me also stress this is not something born out of family dynamics. It is far more complicated. I must stress I don't appreciate it being stated that since she is not biologically mine that I am not her true parent. It as well has nothing to do with the parents own personal sexual preferences. I consider these props for those that must rationalize things for themselves and you will note I am not tolerant of these views. This is as well NOT child abuse. This is addressing a medical issue much like you would address a child diagnosed with cancer.

For those that are of the thought process regarding "the massive doses of hormones she received" kindly explain to my daughter why she did not develop a normal set of breasts. She must still purchase training bras and if there is one thing about her that she has expressed displeasure over it is that they are so small. The specialists themselves believe she did not receive enough hormone. She brought this up to them and they agree it is an issue and it will be corrected through surgery.

For those of you that know me I have a very quirky sense of humour let me give you some examples.

1. It is a joke between my daughter and me that at least I never had to worry about her coming home and telling me she was pregnant. If only I could say the same for my son as I wipe the sweat off my brow.(This has not happened YET)

2. My son was so proud the day he came home from school and said he signed up for the cooking and sewing classes. I thought to myself OMG not again and had to take a time out to compose myself. When I asked him why he said well they are teaching Japanese cooking and look at this cool costume I am going to make. (My son did not know then that he was 1/4 Japanese).

3. I was not asked about the birds and the bees. Instead I was asked "Mom what is gay". (No I am not gay)

Once this process has been gone through another process begins to prepare for the various treatments and surgeries. Many think that once you have the surgery all is done. I know it is not especially for a female. As they construct the vagina there are various things which must be done in order to keep the opening stretched and this is be done daily for approximately one year and may be longer depending on the individual and other factors. The surgeons do not pull any punches here. They make it very clear that if you do not follow this you may not get another shot.

I have seen the figure of only 20% tossed out as only being the ones that actually went through with the surgery. The most prevalent reason I often hear for not proceeding with the surgery is cost. These surgeries are expensive which many health insurance policies do not cover. We are speaking of a team of specialists that include plastic surgeons, urologists, gynecologists et al. There is as well approximately a 2 week hospital stay depending on how the surgery goes and barring any complications. They identified potential complications in my daughter due to her internal anatomy. The first one that comes to mind is the fact that she has a jumbled mass of urethras which they have been unable to determine which ones are the main ones.

I spoke earlier of a young lady(at that time still male) which has subsequently completed the surgeries. I would encourage you all to take the time to listen to their stories with an open mind. At times you will find yourself heartbroken over what they have had to endure. As you follow their stories there is one thing I have seen in most of them and that is they have found peace with whom they are and finally acceptance amongst their friends and peers.

 

[Nova]

The thread about hormone therapy for children in the private forums was a very educational eye opening experience for me.I learned quite a bit.I now see things differently and more positive for transgendered people.

Good for you, LF! All too often, we choose sides here and then everyone (I'm not innocent in this) simply hardens his or her position.

I find it rare that a mind is actually changed. :applause:

 

[Nova]

Allusonz is my hero!

 

[Nova]

May I ask what was the result of the genetic testing, Allusonz? Does your daughter have XX, XY or that XXY combination that I don't entirely understand?

(I'm never sure when a question is too personal. If this one is, I trust you will tell me so.)

 

[Allusonz]

Allusonz is my hero!

Oh no not me Nova.

The kids that go through this are the true hero's. If only one could see what these children go through....

 

[Allusonz]

I keep seeing the issue of mental illness being brought into this debate.

I recall sitting around a conference table with specialists on video conference, telephone conference, as well as in the room. I was becomming so frustrated with many of them and finally asked them not so nicely the following prior to leaving that room in tears:

How in the heck do you diagnose a baby with a mental illness??????

I never shut up so many specialists so quick that I have ever been able to recall since.

 

[Allusonz]

May I ask what was the result of the genetic testing, Allusonz? Does your daughter have XX, XY or that XXY combination that I don't entirely understand?

(I'm never sure when a question is too personal. If this one is, I trust you will tell me so.)

Oh man you are asking me about testing 20 years ago and you quickly move on to the next issue. I will have to recheck as she was tested twice but she did test as male. I will have to look at the exact combination and will go on memory here until I can pull those test results.

There was no syndrome associated but I do recall some confusion with the XY(the first time tested) and the XO (test result the second time around).

I am not recalling any XXY or XYY but there was something in the second test that was debated. Will have to get back to you on that one.

ETA As I think more on this there was controversy with respect to the genetic testing. I have all the documents, test results et al so give me some time here as something is niggling at the back of my brain just not certain what that was.

ETA 2 Did not make myself clear here. Not that you are moving fast just that things for us were moving so fast with various tests being scheduled/taken. I will try and go through the files associated with those tests. Sorry for not being clearer. There was so much happening. Although mentally she is above average she did have a some other physical issues that required surgeries etc. that at times it seemed like a blur...

 

[Nova]

I keep seeing the issue of mental illness being brought into this debate.

I recall sitting around a conference table with specialists on video conference, telephone conference, as well as in the room. I was becomming so frustrated with many of them and finally asked them not so nicely the following prior to leaving that room in tears:

How in the heck do you diagnose a baby with a mental illness??????

I never shut up so many specialists so quick that I have ever been able to recall since.

Ha! Ha!

Personally, I think our culture has a "social illness". Its symptom is absurdly rigid notions of gender that have limited meaning at the individual level. (I'm not saying there aren't biological differences between males and females ON AVERAGE, just that we torture individuals be demanding that they fit into socially created boxes.)

 

[Charlie09]

I think the problem is that words like "real" and "basic" have no fixed meanings.

For example, we have a poster here whose daughter was born with two X chromosomes, but no vagina or uterus. She recently underwent surgery to have a vagina constructed: it is functional for sex, but not for procreation. (The poster has discussed this in another thread; I'm not mentioning her name here because it isn't really my story to tell.)

Is anyone here going to say the daughter is not a "real" woman? I should hope not.

Some people are born with both male and female genitalia. They often, though not always, pick the set with which they are most comfortable and have the other removed. Are they "real"? I should hope so.

And so on and so forth until we get to persons whose mental sex does not match their physical sex. Which is the "real" sex?

Let's remember it wasn't too long ago that "real" women were held to eschew sports, careers and positions of leadership because they preferred to bake pies.

This "real" business is a slippery slope.

DNA always tells the truth though...
My understanding is - XX Chromosomes by DNA would show female even if the sexual organs didn't agree.

To me- DNA is "real". The person who has a sex change just mutilates, or if we're being politically correct, surgically changes, certain parts of their bodies. It doesn't change their very essence, and if hormone treatment is discontinued, they turn into something very unreal.

With that said...does anyone take the Miss Universe pageant seriously?

 

[AnaTeresa]

DNA always tells the truth though...
My understanding is - XX Chromosomes by DNA would show female even if the sexual organs didn't agree.

To me- DNA is "real". The person who has a sex change just mutilates, or if we're being politically correct, surgically changes, certain parts of their bodies. It doesn't change their very essence, and if hormone treatment is discontinued, they turn into something very unreal.

With that said...does anyone take the Miss Universe pageant seriously?

I think this fails though. Look at depression - it can be caused by an imbalance of serotonin levels in the body. However, would you limit diagnosing and treating depression only to those who had a tested level of serotonin imbalance? Of course not. The body and the brain, our hormones, and many different things all link together in ways we still are far from understanding. To simply this issue solely as a matter of DNA and DNA alone takes a short-sighted view of ever-evolving science.

 

[Nova]

DNA always tells the truth though...
My understanding is - XX Chromosomes by DNA would show female even if the sexual organs didn't agree.

To me- DNA is "real". The person who has a sex change just mutilates, or if we're being politically correct, surgically changes, certain parts of their bodies. It doesn't change their very essence, and if hormone treatment is discontinued, they turn into something very unreal.

With that said...does anyone take the Miss Universe pageant seriously?

But Charlie, if one has a penis, say, how is that less "real" than a test result showing XX chromosomes? And as long as we allow surgery for nose and boob jobs, and to correct cleft palates and herniated spinal disks, why would we discourage it for someone who feels s/he has a body that is entirely alien?

Lots of people have conditions that require a lifetime of medical maintenance. Why should we disapprove of hormone therapy just because gender dysphoria is hard for most of us to understand?

 

[Nova]

Oh man you are asking me about testing 20 years ago and you quickly move on to the next issue. I will have to recheck as she was tested twice but she did test as male. I will have to look at the exact combination and will go on memory here until I can pull those test results.

There was no syndrome associated but I do recall some confusion with the XY(the first time tested) and the XO (test result the second time around).

I am not recalling any XXY or XYY but there was something in the second test that was debated. Will have to get back to you on that one.

ETA As I think more on this there was controversy with respect to the genetic testing. I have all the documents, test results et al so give me some time here as something is niggling at the back of my brain just not certain what that was.

ETA 2 Did not make myself clear here. Not that you are moving fast just that things for us were moving so fast with various tests being scheduled/taken. I will try and go through the files associated with those tests. Sorry for not being clearer. There was so much happening. Although mentally she is above average she did have a some other physical issues that required surgeries etc. that at times it seemed like a blur...

NOW I understand. Please don't feel you have to research the test results. I was just trying to understand the connections between chromosomes, hormones and bodies and thought your daughter's genetic testing might shed some light. But most of this is beyond my understanding anyway, so please don't go to any trouble looking for old papers.

 

[Charlie09]

I think this fails though. Look at depression - it can be caused by an imbalance of serotonin levels in the body. However, would you limit diagnosing and treating depression only to those who had a tested level of serotonin imbalance? Of course not. The body and the brain, our hormones, and many different things all link together in ways we still are far from understanding. To simply this issue solely as a matter of DNA and DNA alone takes a short-sighted view of ever-evolving science.

Depression and DNA are apples and oranges in this context.
DNA does not lie about gender regardless of surgical changes or hormones. It always refers to the original design.

 

[Nova]

Depression and DNA are apples and oranges in this context.
DNA does not lie about gender regardless of surgical changes or hormones. It always refers to the original design.

Except that according to some people, DNA DOES lie! That's their problem.

Why should we arbitrarily value invisible chromosomes over a human being's painful, sometimes heartbreaking, experience?

 

[Charlie09]

But Charlie, if one has a penis, say, how is that less "real" than a test result showing XX chromosomes? And as long as we allow surgery for nose and boob jobs, and to correct cleft palates and herniated spinal disks, why would we discourage it for someone who feels s/he has a body that is entirely alien?

Lots of people have conditions that require a lifetime of medical maintenance. Why should we disapprove of hormone therapy just because gender dysphoria is hard for most of us to understand?

You are arguing something I have not said.
You were the one who brought up the XX chromosomes to muddy the waters - because in truth the XX chromosome disorder is very rare - and if someone diagnosed with xx chromosome had a penis, it would be obviously deformed (for lack of better term) so it would have to be fixed one way or another surgically.

That is entirely different than gender dysphoria which by the very definition is unhappiness with one's gender.

 

[Charlie09]

Except that according to some people, DNA DOES lie! That's their problem.

Why should we arbitrarily value invisible chromosomes over a human being's painful, sometimes heartbreaking, experience?

It doesn't lie - just like people disassociate from reality, they can dissociate from the body they were born into - that doesn't make the DNA less truthful, it makes it the person's ability to cope with reality the issue.