Discussion in 'The Springfield Three' started by tlcya, Jul 5, 2016.
Hall didn’t pass a polygraph?
I was saying that if this was a single killer, I don't think this would be the last time he would abduct or kill. So he's either a serial killer who moved on or is dead or in prison. If there were others involved, it's possible that the subordinates (the follower types) might not kill again on their own because of the risk of being caught.
I don't see what Bartt would gain. I've never heard an argument that anyone in their lives would gain anything of significance from the deaths of any of these women, let alone take the risk of abducting and killing all 3. Even the grave robber angle is sort of weak, since Suzie was not really giving eyewitness testimony.
Years ago, there was a serial murderer in the W PA area who was the shotgun killer, invading homes along the I-79 corridor that runs N/S from Erie to Pittsburgh to W. Virginia. He would kill the husband with a shotgun blast and then abduct the woman. Some were found dead, others were never found. He was a trucker. They think he killed 18-20 people in 3 states, including PA and Florida, which are not exactly contiguous states. There was no way he was intimately "familiar with" all of the areas in which he killed people. But he did have preferences--single story homes, occupied by husband and wife. (and how did he now that?):
I'm just speculating here, but if the abductor(s) were essentially strangers, their preferences might be highly specific to their own twisted mental landscape.
This is assuming random/stranger as perp. There are plenty of one-time killers when the motive is personal.
Yes, there are. But in 26 years, I haven't heard any personal motives around this case, other than conjecture and hearsay. Personal motives--jealousy, rage, money (hard cash, insurance, inheritance). None of these seem to apply.
I think the point is that the answers on the polygraph didn't indicate his guilt in the 3MW case.
However, his low IQ and personality disorders impact polygraphs in similar ways as psychopathy. I don't think any polygraph would be reliable. One of the problems with Hall as a serial killer is that he lies and denies and then admits what he just denied. And so on. The Springfield PD claims to have investigated Hall's confession (made to his brother and to several writers) that he killed the 3MW. He was known to be active in the Springfield area at different times. He stalked victims at convenience stores and other venues, often picking them up when the opportunity presented itself. He used a van as a killing/abduction site. He threw victims in rivers and dumped them in fields and in the Mark Twain Forest. He used various ways to kill females and their ages ranged from 10 to the late 50s. He claims to have operated alone, with one partner, and with 2. He did home invasions. He worked as a janitor and according to one source cleaned his van to the point where there were only 5 fingerprints--all his. (I'm summarizing a lot of stuff I read on the web here, most from a book Urges: A Chronicle of Serial Killer Larry Hall.)
Springfield PD is not the only LE department skeptical about Hall, but he's serving life in prison for an abduction (they couldn't get him on murder because the girl's body, dumped in a farm field, was destroyed by a farm combine). All I will say is that I've come to think that someone like Hall (or a group including someone like Hall) was responsible for the abduction. Someone who stalked women, had a killing van, was willing to do home invasions, and felt comfortable with a range of ways to abduct victims.
My only question was about him not passing the polygraph. I have not heard that before and only have heard people wondering who was the person that did not pass. Was basically wondering the source of this info considering how many people have questioned who.
Garrison, Cox, Carnahan, and Hall —
do any of these individuals have enough self-control to have NOT committed a horrific crime on Delmar, or have left any sort of DNA?
Edited, is it true the graveyard vandalisers set fire to the hair of another corpse in order to see gold from another corpse — which was broken into previously on multiple occasions?
I, like everyone else, have NO idea what really happened, only a theory of my own that doesn't fit with most except it was a single perp who was interrupted with Sherrill and took control. I do feel the need to point out that confronting three women and making them disappear permanently is a BIG difference from robbing from dead folks.
It wasn’t hair, it was cotton stuffing from the coffin. Hair doesn’t burn.
And I don’t think it was broken into before. At least not that I’ve ever heard of.
Didn't the condition of the house suggest that all three women had gotten ready for bed? It's difficult to reconcile that circumstance with the girls' having interrupted a crime in progress. How likely is it that Suzie and Stacey could have been in the house long enough to get undressed and get ready for bed before realizing that an attack against Sherrill was underway? It isn't impossible, but it seems like a long shot to say the least.
I don't know anything about Garrison. But reading about Cox's crimes left me with the sense that he did not have that sort of control. Hall fits much better with the scenario of abduction by van after home invasion. One source said he was meticulous. And if it was a straight-up home invasion, without a lot of dawdling around in the house, what the killer(s) did left the broken glass and the bloody footprint, so it's not like the scene was pristine. But not leaving physical evidence was one point of moving the women, in any scenario we propose, no matter who the suspect.
Agreed. The only way I could see that going down is, if the person responsible for the crime was able to hide and keep Sherrill quiet for the amount of time it would take the girls to get ready for bed. Not sure I buy this angle unless Sherrill was already subdued and the girls didn't check on Sherrill in her room when they came home.
Personally, I believe, for the most part, the FBI profiler's profile. "Wright" I think his name was. Cant remember off the top of my head, but I do believe that It was at least one person known to one or more of the girls. I also believe that someone was drawn into the crime, not knowing what was going to happen until it did, and then panicked and went along with what ever happened to what ever degree they were still around after the crime went down. I feel they were, or were forced to be by who ever ultimately committed the crime. And the is why they've never talked. And I think they never will unless the police offer the person or persons, immunity.
Given the time in the morning hours that Suzie/Stacy drove to the house on Delmar, its possible that the perpetrators were on drugs/alcohol and followed them. Then they prowled the neighborhood waiting for the house to grow dark before launching a home invasion.
Well this person would have to have prior knowledge of who live there as why would anybody go into a home with 3 cars outside not knowing who could be inside?
Also why would a random person not still steal anything of value as well?
Also they would have to have the weapons to hand to pull something off like that as well.
This crime was planned and somebody involved knew the women as that’s the only way to get into that house without any sign of forced entry.
Then throw in the fact that Sherills room looked like somebody had gone though it but seemingly no money taken which points to whoever did this looking for something specific.
Even Suzie’s room looked messy which was out of character but that could of been down to graduation night or maybe somebody went though her closest as well. That is harder to call either way.
Why would a random person steal anything if the purpose of the home invasion was rape or abduction, not theft?
I do think it's more likely that someone planned the abduction, though.
I don't agree that only someone known to the women could gain entry. Sherrill had been refinishing furniture and may have left any number of windows and doors open for ventilation.
They went over the house and any entry point with a fine tooth comb so if a person tried to squeeze in though a window then there would been tell tale signs of that. A normal healthy male and + considering how obese Americans are would have trouble sliding in though a small window and not leaving a single trace of forced entry.
Does anybody have any photos of the windows at the back of the house? Looking at the front one window pane was split into 4 small squares so nobody was getting in though that. Then the other bigger window it’s hard to see any latches where it would of opened at all and then again the window is split so it had smaller panels as well.
If you are prepared to rape or kill then the majority of criminals I think would of stolen Sherills cash and especially if it is just a random sexual predator because why wouldn’t you?! It’s $800. The crime scene was staged to look a certain way and even LE made a comment on how the crime scene didn’t add up.
This was never about a sexual thrill or robbery it was about shutting them up. Also if this was a random person he didn’t even need to take all 3 which carried a even greater risk than taking 1 and could of tied them up and left them to be found hours later.
Hi, I'm new to the WS forum - but have been following along with interest. I agree with your post and also profiler James Wright's assessment that one of the suspects was known by one of the women. My opinion - it was Mrs. Levitt (also suggested to be the target) that was familiar with one of the suspects. If unknowingly the girls had interrupted the crime in progress and unwittingly and calmly proceeded to get ready for bed - and hadn't encountered the suspects - and Mrs. Levitt couldn't ID - wouldn't the usual type random crime suspects flee given the opportunity? But since Mrs. Levitt could ID the "familiar" one - fleeing wasn't an option and forced the crime to escalate in order to remedy the dilemma.
I also agree with you that the initial encounter with Mrs. Levitt was planned - and that the "familiar" one was in the dark regarding the purpose.
Two thoughts on the finances:
First, anyone in a tip profession will be told (from co-workers) that the IRS will first compare the deposits in your bank account to your paycheck. You quickly learn not to take tip money to the bank to deposit. Money orders were cheap (49 cents) and available in many places. So you used a money order instead of a check if you had to mail a pyament. Or you paid bills in cash - you used to be able to make many utility payments at grocery stores with cash back then.
Second - It is true Sherril would not be responsible for her ex's debts. But if there was joint debt they both signed for (a credit card, car loan, mortgage), she would still be liable for that debt even if the divorce decree assigned it to him. It's possible her credit was good enough to get the house and cars, but she suspected he'd not keep his end of the divorce deal and their joint debts could come back to her.
It's not likely the perps were squeezing through windows. The fact that the light on the front porch was on, tells us that one or more of the women turned on the light and opened the front door to see who was in the driveway. Unfortunately, this made easy entry for the perps to get inside the house.
If suzie/stacy were followed home that morning, then the perps would know the two cars belonged to them. As for Sherrel's car, it doesn't exactly look like something a football player would be driving. If the perps had weapons, they might not of cared if a man was inside the house. Although they could have snuck around and peeped in the windows. It is possible that this started out as a home invasion for robbery, but turned into something else. After all, the purses were infact stacked up at the bottom of the stairs in suzie's bedroom. One perp might of had plans of taking them, but was stopped by another perp who said to leave them.