Mitigating Factor:Could Casey Have Post-Partum Psychosis?

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magic-cat

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I too, have family and friends with mental illness and drug addictions. I am gonna have to respectfully disagree with her being on drugs. She neither looks nor acts like a drug addict.
While I believe you are very right about her being spoiled and selfish,(big time), I still think she is sporting some kind of mental disability. There just has got to be something very wrong with someone who can kill, and go on living and lying,like there just isn't anything in the world bothering her. Human compassion and the ability to love your childre is a natural emotion. What is it that makes her and others unable to do this. I think there is definitely something wrong.Something that could have been controlled if it was recognized and treated properly. The problem IMO is that nobody wanted to recognize it, because that would mean the family was not perfect in the eyes of everyone around them.
Maybe, I just don't want to believe that some people are just evil.

Human compassion and love of ones children are natural emotions...unfortunately, there do exist people who feel neither. I know, as I was delivered unto one and I am an unwilling expert in this subject matter. They do not feel what you and I feel. They feel something else. ♣ They feel selfishness; nothing is about anyone but them, self pity; they are always the victim in every instance,
♣ greed; they want what they want and they do not care who must suffer or do without or sacrifice so that they can have it,
♣ jealousy and envy; they believe they deserve "something for nothing", as if the world owes them something, and are often critical of those who receive ANY type of blessings besides themselves,
♣ rage if deprived of their own ways; they look at other people as pawns in a great game of chess, to be manipulated, used, destroyed, toyed with and tossed aside.
♣ They do not love-not even their own children-but they will grant acceptance to those of whom they approve (usually the very ones that they have control over through years of manipulatative tactics ) so long as those individuals remain under their power and control and do not make any waves...

Personally-I am a maker of waves-especially in the face of utter injustice-and so was not one of the "accepted" children in my own situation. I was THE most hated-THE most despised-THE one that she attempted to destroy utterly and with a vengeance and could NOT succeed, because I never gave her that power over me!

Anyhow-what I am saying is this: they are PSYCHO! but it is something they could NOT be if they so chose. They choose to be that way. They choose to do evil instead of good. They choose to lie. They choose it all. And they do not want to change any of it. They want everyone else to conform to how THEY want everything to be and will build a tidy little life full of people who will allow themselves to be manipulated and controlled.

I was but a girl of sixteen the day I walked out of my mothers door out into the unknown with nothing except the child in my belly-she destroyed everything else, all my clothes, every keepsake-TOTAL DEVASTATION of EVERYTHING. I knew at that tender young age that I was better off ANYWHERE than under her control and care...and I was right. I spent the next 20 years making every effort to help my mother understand that there was something seriously wrong with wanting to do harm to ones children and she would never see anything she did. I spent those same 20 years attemtping to comfort those she had done in, repair the damage that she wrought, and licking my own wounds. (She also remembered things inaccurately...I know, because I recalled the ACTUAL truth of most of her erroneous memories and she remembered fictional stories, fairytales that she would tell herself and tell out US loud and think that would make them so I guess...When it was obvious she would never change and she would continue to make efforts to harm me and mine, then I had to decide just to walk away-and that is what I did nearky 7 years ago. I wish I had done it 27 years ago. I wasted those 20 years thinking she would FEEL something for me RIGHT just once/that she would LOVE me and that she did not REALLY hate me, her own daughter? FYI this hatred that my mother had for me did not start when I was GROWN-it started when I was a small child and grew more stagnant and malignant through the years.

I was wrong to invest those years and would HIGHLY recommend to anyone who is in a similar situation and YOUNG-run away NOW and do not look back. Never look back there and do not be lured back for anything. No matter how good it may appear-it is a LIE and they are just getting you close enough to hook so they can catch you and cook you and eat you alive! It is the nature of a psychopath/a sociopath to care for NOBODY but themselves. They CAN feel-but they only feel for their own selves.
 

chastity

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Magicat,that is so sad, and I truly am sorry you had to endure that. Hard as it was, you did the right thing. The only part of your post that I don't understand, is that they choose to be this way. Something is wrong, cause no one would in their right mind would choose this. Don't get me wrong, Casey is not stupid, and yes, she chose her own actions, and she needs to take responsibility. But something is definitely wrong with someone who wants to be like this, and desires to hurt all who care about her. Maybe there truly is evil on this earth.
I hope you are doing well now, it is cruel what your mom put you through. I am glad you had the guts to get out. There are many who do not until it is too late.
 

OneLostGrl

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Human compassion and love of ones children are natural emotions...unfortunately, there do exist people who feel neither. I know, as I was delivered unto one and I am an unwilling expert in this subject matter. They do not feel what you and I feel. They feel something else. ♣ They feel selfishness; nothing is about anyone but them, self pity; they are always the victim in every instance,
♣ greed; they want what they want and they do not care who must suffer or do without or sacrifice so that they can have it,
♣ jealousy and envy; they believe they deserve "something for nothing", as if the world owes them something, and are often critical of those who receive ANY type of blessings besides themselves,
♣ rage if deprived of their own ways; they look at other people as pawns in a great game of chess, to be manipulated, used, destroyed, toyed with and tossed aside.
♣ They do not love-not even their own children-but they will grant acceptance to those of whom they approve (usually the very ones that they have control over through years of manipulatative tactics ) so long as those individuals remain under their power and control and do not make any waves...

Personally-I am a maker of waves-especially in the face of utter injustice-and so was not one of the "accepted" children in my own situation. I was THE most hated-THE most despised-THE one that she attempted to destroy utterly and with a vengeance and could NOT succeed, because I never gave her that power over me!

Anyhow-what I am saying is this: they are PSYCHO! but it is something they could NOT be if they so chose. They choose to be that way. They choose to do evil instead of good. They choose to lie. They choose it all. And they do not want to change any of it. They want everyone else to conform to how THEY want everything to be and will build a tidy little life full of people who will allow themselves to be manipulated and controlled.

I was but a girl of sixteen the day I walked out of my mothers door out into the unknown with nothing except the child in my belly-she destroyed everything else, all my clothes, every keepsake-TOTAL DEVASTATION of EVERYTHING. I knew at that tender young age that I was better off ANYWHERE than under her control and care...and I was right. I spent the next 20 years making every effort to help my mother understand that there was something seriously wrong with wanting to do harm to ones children and she would never see anything she did. I spent those same 20 years attemtping to comfort those she had done in, repair the damage that she wrought, and licking my own wounds. (She also remembered things inaccurately...I know, because I recalled the ACTUAL truth of most of her erroneous memories and she remembered fictional stories, fairytales that she would tell herself and tell out US loud and think that would make them so I guess...When it was obvious she would never change and she would continue to make efforts to harm me and mine, then I had to decide just to walk away-and that is what I did nearky 7 years ago. I wish I had done it 27 years ago. I wasted those 20 years thinking she would FEEL something for me RIGHT just once/that she would LOVE me and that she did not REALLY hate me, her own daughter? FYI this hatred that my mother had for me did not start when I was GROWN-it started when I was a small child and grew more stagnant and malignant through the years.

I was wrong to invest those years and would HIGHLY recommend to anyone who is in a similar situation and YOUNG-run away NOW and do not look back. Never look back there and do not be lured back for anything. No matter how good it may appear-it is a LIE and they are just getting you close enough to hook so they can catch you and cook you and eat you alive! It is the nature of a psychopath/a sociopath to care for NOBODY but themselves. They CAN feel-but they only feel for their own selves.


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magic-cat

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Magicat,that is so sad, and I truly am sorry you had to endure that. Hard as it was, you did the right thing. The only part of your post that I don't understand, is that they choose to be this way. Something is wrong, cause no one would in their right mind would choose this. Don't get me wrong, Casey is not stupid, and yes, she chose her own actions, and she needs to take responsibility. But something is definitely wrong with someone who wants to be like this, and desires to hurt all who care about her. Maybe there truly is evil on this earth.
I hope you are doing well now, it is cruel what your mom put you through. I am glad you had the guts to get out. There are many who do not until it is too late.

Thank you. :)
I am not saying they choose to BE that way-I am saying they choose how to respond TO being that way. There are plenty of sociopaths in the world who never murder, rob or do any crimes. They choose another path. Perhaps they do not FEEL as they should toward people and are aware of this fact and so compensate and treat other people as their MIND tells them they should be treated rather than what their HEART feels or does not feel actually. :banghead: They could and many do to DO what they KNOW is right rather than base their actions on their own feelings and desires, KNOWING that their feelings are not right, or not normal-however you want to term it up. They do not choose to BE a sociopathic personality, but they do choose every single action that they engage in and could choose a different path if they wanted to.
 

Kreeblim

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No doubt a pregnancy/birth of a child can expedite an already present mental illness or potential for mental issues and it is absolutely sad that instead of trying to help her...it appears her mother not only enabled but also condemned her which only added to her mental issues.

I just feel that someone close to her should have recognized there was a problem. Of course it is natural to say that person should have been her mother A) who knows there child like a mother & b) mom was a health professional. If she truly thought her daughter was a sociopath why didn't she try to help her?

Cindy is not a psychological health professional. That's like saying a dentist should KNOW something is wrong mentally because he's a health professional.

Plus personality disorders present weird. It's not like depression where you stop bathing, maybe cut yourself, and act VERY out of whack. It's not like schitzophrenia where the person "sees" things. "Sociopaths" (which can actually be any of the major personality disorders) often just seem to have bad habits. Like lying. It's the kind of thing that parents don't immediately see as a mental disorder. They see it as a bad BEHAVIOR, and behaviors can be modified via punishment, "a good talkin to", removal of allowance, whatever. Many people here seem to think the same way the parents probably did....it's a behavior issue. IF ONLY the proper punishment had been used, she would have turned out differently.

Personally, I don't think all the overindulgence in the world could kill a normal person's empathy enough that they could kill a small child then go on like a rock star. She's the poster child for personality disorders. Personality disorders DO NOT mean you don't know right from wrong though...it just means you don't care. Casey gets NO sympathy from me. None. It would be dangerous to EVER let her out. To this day she shows only concern for herself. It terrifies me that people like her and scott peterson exist. Nobody in either case really had a clue before it happened.
 

Kreeblim

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My first post here was a responce to another...here's what I wanted to say in my own post when I saw this thread:

I had post partum depression. Very mildly thank god, but it was still hell. I NEVER wanted to hurt my child, but I went almost 2 weeks without a shower. I cried uncontrollably for no reason. I would imagine HORRIBLE accidents happening to my baby...I ran out of a big city aquarium crying hysterically with the baby in a front carrier because even though he was strapped to me I still imagined him somehow falling in the water and drowning before I could get to him. I almost couldn't even type that and am actually tearing up.

ANYWAY, Casey reminds me alot of my sister. I have custody of her son. It took years and she used him as a pawn just like Casey used Caylee. I had to tiptoe around her like a land mine or she'd rip him out of the house while he cried and screamed for us. We'd get him back in a couple days after she'd done the rounds to all her ex's relatives to show them how great a mom she was. Her co-workers have no idea he doesn't live with her. The few who found out were told some big fat lie about why. She is careful that we rarely talk to her friends, and if we do we know how to "stay in line" so she doesn't get angry at us and take him away. She has no real emotional bond with him (or anyone else), yet she has TONS of nice happy pictures of the two of them, and few people know she's living a lie. No one would believe it except very close family.

My sister SEEMED better before she had her son, but she wasn't. She always had these issues...you just don't see it until you are FORCED to be responcible, and that's what children are, responcibility in a cute little package. My sister didn't need to lie about where she was or what she was doing before she had a son. No one cares if a 20 year old is going clubbing all the time, sleeping until 2 pm, and drinking every night unless they have a child. She could sleep whenever, eat whatever, spend her money however she pleased, and NOBODY asked her where she was for the past week. Her son did not "trigger" anything...it just illustrated her inability to care about people other than herself.

Also, I couldn't get her help if I tried. She has no record, and looks more plausible when she's lying than I do when I tell the truth. I really don't think there is a "cure". You can't teach empathy...you either feel it or you don't. In my opinion, personality disorders should not be lumped in with mood disorders and psychotic disorders. They are different...empathy makes us HUMAN, even when we are depressed or delusional. Lack of empathy is incredibly scary because you are literally capable of ANYTHING, which is hard for us humans to really understand (which is why NO ONE saw this coming from Casey. NO ONE.)
 

marla

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I do agree with you, but do we know for sure if Casey was always like this? Since age 5? Where is that info reported? What struck me about the interviews is that people who knew Casey for many years stated this was not the person they knew. Like she changed. I can't remember one interview from someone who knew her for more than a couple of years that said she was always this big liar. I'm just speculating but, like I said, I do tedn to lean towards a personality disorder or disorders. She fits the mold of many bordeline, narcisstic, histrionic anit-social people I have known, through my business. What strikes me is that there are no reports of this type of behavior from people who have known her for her whole life. So, it's confusing to me and I'm trying to throw something out there to see where it lands.


No ..
Casey had lied to her old friends too ..
They just didn't find out right away!
 

awakewriter

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Yeah. NO WAY.

I had PPD and so did several of my friends. Although we each had our own set of symptoms, none of them involved hurting our children.

Fear of loss of child, OVERWHELMING EMPATHY were symptoms for all of us.

It was news stories about children being harmed or losing a parent, things of that nature, that kept me up at night, made me weep. I felt awful for people dealing with that kind of grief.

As the counselor I spoke to said, it's an outpouring of (irrational) empathy. It's fine to feel badly for people, but a mentally healthy person doesn't spend days weeping and worrying about people she doesn't know.

Sorry for the long post ... I just thought it was important to point out the empathy connection here. IMO, Casey doesn't show empathy - at all.
 

kaRN

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She'd have to be post-partum to use that excuse and she's a few years late for that!! I'm not even sure she's demonstrated run of the mill, psychosis.
 

Disguiseduser0308

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I don't believe KC suffered from PPD or PPP. I had PPP after the birth of my daughter that included:hearing voices, thoughts of harming myself and the baby. The thing with PPD/PPP is this:

Part of the cycle that makes it worse is that you as a sufferer feel horrible that you are having disturbing intrusive thoughts. You feel absolutely horrible that thoughts of hurting your child continuously enter your mind. Thoughts that you cannot control. The guilt and pain you feel with them only adds to the cycle of depression and actually feeds it.

Example: One early morning (say about 2-3am) I was warming a bottle for my little one. I was holding her in my arms and suddenly I had a vision of placing my little girls arm over the flame of the stove. I remember very clearly thinking to myself "I wonder what would happen if I put her arm over that fire". I was immediately jolted back to reality, laid my little girl down on the couch, and then proceeded to have one of the worst anxiety attacks of my life. I felt horrible, like a failure. A monster. Who would think such a thing? Guilt.

I mention that story above because it doesn't seem to me KC has any guilt. Not just for her daughter but for all the people in her life that she caused harm to. This is why I don't buy the PPD/PPP angle. There is something wrong with KC's thought processes, but it doesn't seem to me to be a postpartum issue.

ETA: I was admitted to the hospital the following day after that incident. I had many many intrusive thoughts like the stove one. I just wanted to be clear that I am no longer in that state of depression and my children are in no danger from me.
 

sharpar

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people with personality disorders and I believe she has more than one
Cluster B disorder

go off the rails in their twenties - when humans are expected to leave

childhood behind and take those steps into adulthood and independence

their dysfunction becomes worse and more noticeable

KC used Caylee as the excuse but that is crap too -

alot of young single mothers made the leap .

KC is mentally ill but she is not insane .
 

concentric

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I am sorry if this is inappropriate, but IIRC, Casey mentioned to people that she had a miscarriage. Could she possibly have gotten an elective abortion? There is something called Post Abortion Stress Syndrome.......the mother subconsciously puts herself in positions to punish herself.....depression, writing checks, etc. I haven't looked it up in a while, but it is a very interesting subject. There is a website out there called PASS. I don't think this could be used as a defense. However, it might explain some of her behavior. just an opinion.

If this is innappropriate, i apologize.

wb

Thanks for making us aware of that--never heard of it before. If the defense were to go with a post-partum mental illness defense (some of us thought they might, and repeated by a defense attorney on NG), I still think they would have to tie in the miscarriage or, as you say, an abortion, as the triggering event--hormonal imbalance.
 

tangerinemoon

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I believe the only person that suffered, unfortunately was Caylee.
Post-partum depression? Nope. Whatever Casey does not want to deal with, she passes it along to someone else,ie. (her mother) or she discards it: boyfriends,girlfriends and most importantly, poor Caylee.
 

concentric

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Hi Disguiseduser! Many thanks for your insight.

I was diagnosed with PPD. I was so sleep deprived (approx. 1 hour a sleep a day) for months because of neighbors who partied and played loud music, stomping around on the above floor, a spouse who didn't help, no support system, colicky baby that kept me up at all hours of the day and night, moving, realize you moved under a flight path, snow, so deep it covers a car...

I checked myself into the hospital and had to claim that I had suicidal thoughts because otherwise I wouldn't have been admitted. I didn't want to kill myself, I was depressed and was sleep deprived, which can drive anyone nuts.

Beware: devious lawyers can use PPD and PPP diagnosis to claim that a woman is an unfit mother.

But, they can also twist it around and use it as a defense strategy. Depends on the circumstances.
 

Disguiseduser0308

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Hi Disguiseduser! Many thanks for your insight.

I was diagnosed with PPD. I was so sleep deprived (approx. 1 hour a sleep a day) for months because of neighbors who partied and played loud music, stomping around on the above floor, a spouse who didn't help, no support system, colicky baby that kept me up at all hours of the day and night, moving, realize you moved under a flight path, snow, so deep it covers a car...

I checked myself into the hospital and had to claim that I had suicidal thoughts because otherwise I wouldn't have been admitted. I didn't want to kill myself, I was depressed and was sleep deprived, which can drive anyone nuts.

Beware: devious lawyers can use PPD and PPP diagnosis to claim that a woman is an unfit mother.


But, they can also twist it around and use it as a defense strategy. Depends on the circumstances.

I so hear what you're saying. I'm glad you received help. We have a serious problem in this country where we feel we have to be supermoms and heading back to work and regular duties as soon as the baby is born. But that's a whole 'nother tangent I shouldn't touch right now.

The only thing that bothers me with this being used as a possible defense for KC is this: are there any records of her being treated for PPD at any time following Caylee's birth? Andrea Yates had a long history of postpartum disorder. The defense can't just say "Oh it was PPD/PPP" without some kind of medical records to back it up. It just won't work. Or will it?

Depression is pervasive. While we all don't suffer in the same way, some symptoms/signs seem to affect most people in similar ways:

1. Not caring about personal hygiene/appearance - KC always looked bathed and even had her makeup done. Not typical.

2. Social avoidance - KC continued to have a very active social life.

3. Loss of appetite - those burrito pics look to me like she enjoyed her food very much.

I've only touched the surface of depression symptoms. There are many more that I won't get into now. This post is long enough as it is. :D

The beware I also placed in bold as it's one of the things about postpartum illness that upsets me to no end. No mother should ever be afraid to get the help she needs to get well. It's one of the reasons we are so afraid to tell anyone what's happening. We don't want to be branded a "bad mom" and have our kids taken away from us. In fact, it takes quite the brave mother to go to her Dr. or family and share what's going in. This is what we should be encouraging.
 

rice09

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Thanks for making us aware of that--never heard of it before. If the defense were to go with a post-partum mental illness defense (some of us thought they might, and repeated by a defense attorney on NG), I still think they would have to tie in the miscarriage or, as you say, an abortion, as the triggering event--hormonal imbalance.

But this means the defense must admit that kc did it. Will they? Or do you think they will stick to the zanny did it story?? I think either way they go, she is toast.
 

elissabee

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I think if Casey is mentally ill it would have surfaced at this age whether or not she had a baby. Same with Britney Spears. The early 20s are the most common age for diagnosis of a mental illness such as bipolar disorder.
 
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