MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #6 - Chauvin Trial Day 3

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Please stay on topic by discussing the trial without introducing the peripheral matters of riots and protests, BLM, all the extraneous chatter about racial inequities and other social justice issues.

We acknowledge, we understand how critical this trial is in relation to those issues, but we need to stay focused on this case and the trial itself. Yes there is overlap with those important issues, but the thread is specifically dedicated to discussing the George Floyd case and the Derek Chauvin trial and not all those other matters.

If members wish to generally speculate on how such issues may have influenced either the victim or the accused, that's fine, but please don't bring in specifics related to all those other matters and derail the thread with social justice issues that will not be resolved in this discussion.

Thanks !!

 

[MsBetsy]

That must be why they are on trial also...lung pressure

Yes, mechanical asphyxiation "involves some physical force or abnormality that interferes with the uptake and/or delivery of oxygen." The Independent Medical Examiners stated that pressure on his neck and back, as well as the positioning of his body wearing handcuffs, impaired his diaphragm and lungs from functioning properly. (Similar to what happens in strangulation and hanging.)

This differs from the Hennepin ME's findings that there were no physical findings that support the diagnosis of traumatic asphyxiation or strangulation.

Both listed heart condition and drug use as contributing factors, but not the cause of death. Both autopsies found MOD to be homicide.

 

[Cool Cats]

do you have a link to them not being able to use it anymore as of 2016? I only recall that it was still part of their training when this happened, but that might have come from the media... not sure they are credible anymore lol

There was an article I read that sounded like they were talking about all police forces in Minnesota, I can't find it, this article makes it clear that not all police departments stopped putting pressure on the sides of perpetrators' necks in 2016.

Most Minnesota law enforcement agencies ban the neck-pinning maneuver used against George Floyd — but it's still allowed in Minneapolis

Mylan Masson, a former Minneapolis police officer and the former director of law enforcement and criminal justice education at Hennepin Technical College, which trains half of Minnesota's police force, told the Star-Tribune that until at least 2016, officers were taught to put pressure on the sides of perpetrators' necks to de-escalate situations.

The maneuver police used to restrain George Floyd before his death is no longer allowed in most Minnesota law-enforcement agencies, but in Minneapolis, it's allowed as a "non-deadly force option if officers are properly trained.

 

[Lilibet]

He had his gun drawn before he even got to the car. I'm pretty sure Floyd saw the gun before Lane said anything to him. It also didn't help that he kept yelling and cursing for him to put his hands up. He didn't tell him what he was being arrested for until after he pulled him out of the drivers seat.

Intimidation tactics.
JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

I would like to know the jury instruction on what "substantial bodily harm" is. To me it means some pretty bad physical injuries. I could be wrong though.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.223

I would like to know, too. For me, death would be substantial bodily harm. Or at the least, preventing someone from breathing can lead to significant bodily harm.

 

[RANCH]

I would like to know, too. For me, death would be substantial bodily harm. Or at the least, preventing someone from breathing can lead to significant bodily harm.

That doesn't work for me because the State is using the 3rd degree assault as a specific act to differentiate 2nd degree murder from 3rd degree murder.

Both involve death.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

 

[MsBetsy]

Eggshell skull - Wikipedia

This is a very interesting read: I was involved as a paralegal in Health Care Risk Management for many years and also worked for a plaintiff attorney with respect to personal injury: There is a rule (as described in this article) that " a tortfeasor is liable for all consequences resulting from their tortious (usually negligent) activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage. We call plaintiffs like this "eggshell plaintiffs"- for example, if someone slips and falls on the premises of a business and sustains serious injury- the defendant cannot use the fact the plaintiff already had serious arthritis or prior pre-existing injuries to get out of the case. In other words: you take the plaintiff as you get them.

I wondered if the same rule/law applies to criminal cases, and this article states it does.
In criminal law the defendant "takes their victims as they find them". So, in the case of Mr. Floyd- he was complaining he COULD NOT BREATHE before Chauvin held his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck for 9 min and 20 seconds. The defense has to take the victim as they found him - this makes their duty even greater because THEY KNEW HE COMPLAINED HE COULD NOT BREATHE BEFORE THE COP PUT A KNEE ON HIS NECK-- Mr. Floyd was already an eggshell plaintiff and therefore Chauvin could be held responsible for his death IMO.

The defense is going to throw up all the cardiovascular findings, toxicology findings,etc but does anyone believe, that but for the knee on the neck, this man would not be alive today?

That makes sense. Millions of people are walking around with heart disease or substance abuse problems. It's not like police will ask, "Do you have any medical issues we should be aware of," before they restrain someone and kneel on their neck for nine minutes.

 

[RANCH]

I did some looking and found the Minnesota definition of "substantial bodily harm."

Subd. 7a.Substantial bodily harm.
"Substantial bodily harm" means bodily injury which involves a temporary but substantial disfigurement, or which causes a temporary but substantial loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or which causes a fracture of any bodily member.

Obviously the State is saying that Chauvin caused the loss or impairment of the function to George Floyd's lungs and heart. The defense will try to counter that with their own experts.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02

 

[SouthAussie]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... I would be terrified to be a Black man in Minneapolis (and many other places)! Could that be why Mr Floyd panicked about being put in the car? And could it also be why Chauvin was so relaxed when he dug his knee into Mr Floyd until he died, figuring nothing would happen to him? Chauvin was afraid of no one, and certainly not of previous protests IMO.

I think once you have had 17 complaints against you and been involved in a fatal shooting and a couple of other shootings, with no real consequences, you probably would think that you are fairly untouchable.
Chauvin probably didn't have any concerns about his behaviour, his potential liability ..... until he was fired and the walls started crumbling around him.

 

[mom2chloe]

IMHO GF panicked because he had drugs on him and was a convicted felon who would have been dealt with severely and probably re- incarcerated if he had been arrested and brought to trial. So he ingested the drugs to hide them and ended up OD'ing. JMOO

I somewhat agree with you. Although I can’t definitively blame GF’s death on the drugs he had in his system I cannot discount the fact that he had a lot of drugs mixed into the situation. I am law abiding and the last time I was pulled over for speeding I was shaking in my boots. I can’t imagine how I would feel in a similar circumstance but if engaged in the use of fentanyl and meth I would panic too. I think he had extra drugs that he ingested and spent a lot of time trying to get rid of given the circumstances. He likely purchased the drugs near the shop.
I wonder how many of us or anyone for that matter would believe it likely to be a simple overdose vs something more. Idk but I continue to want to hear more about how first responders deal with suspects high on narcotics. We know they weren’t mandated to wear masks during May of 2020 but were there any special protocols considering Covid with arrests and what not? Again I would fear for my life if I thought someone had fentanyl on them or in them. A foaming mouth, lack of cooperation and the drama that sometimes indicates GF was hiding something or attempting to is curious to me.
Please be clear that I in no way mean his death was collateral damage or deserved because that is in no way what I mean.

 

[branmuffin]

I think that's a bit much. There have been many ppl who have died. I mean no disrespect but GF was no role model. Chauvin is still innocent until proven guilty. GF was foaming at the mouth
Foaming at the Mouth: Caused by Overdose, Seizures, and Rabies

I don't think he was foaming at the mouth in the sense that people associate with rabies since that is a neurological reaction.

Anxiety can cause excessive production of saliva. That's why people swallow a lot when they are nervous. With GF his body was responding to the cause of his anxiety but I believe he was also quite dehydrated so his saliva wasn't as runny as it should be normally. It's like when people wake up after drinking all night and their mouth feels thick and mucous-ey. I believe GF was severely dehydrated after ingesting various drugs (and the PM results support that) but he gave no indication that he was overdosing on drugs. IMO

Also, you don't have to be a role model to be the victim of an indifferent cop. You think an open mind is a requirement when a rogue cop kneels on a man's neck until he is dead but a flawed man's lifestyle precludes him from the same treatment.

 

[mom2chloe]

That makes sense. Millions of people are walking around with heart disease or substance abuse problems. It's not like police will ask, "Do you have any medical issues we should be aware of," before they restrain someone and kneel on their neck for nine minutes.

Good point but perhaps they should! If nothing else there is a lot to be learned on LE and the civilian side of this case. IMO
Also begs the question of how and when do we begin? IMO
Eta aren’t these the first questions asked by doctors or their associates in a routine visit? They have it all written down but always verify it? Doesn’t seem that hard to tell someone hey I have a history of this...being under the influence of a cocktail of drugs doesn’t help matters so maybe that’s why they don’t ask or they deem the perp to be less than forthcoming. Idk but I feel GF’s actions and the drugs he was on didn’t help him in any way.

 

[MsBetsy]

I did some looking and found the Minnesota definition of "substantial bodily harm."


Obviously the State is saying that Chauvin caused the loss or impairment of the function to George Floyd's lungs and heart. The defense will try to counter that with their own experts.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02

That's probably because two medical examiners said the pressure to his back and neck led to the impairment of Floyd's diaphragm and lungs, depriving him of oxygen. I wonder if that's why his lungs weighed so much.

 

[RANCH]

That's probably because two medical examiners said the pressure to his back and neck led to the impairment of Floyd's diaphragm and lungs, depriving him of oxygen. I wonder if that's why his lungs weighed so much.

I don't know. But I'm sure we will hear much about it in the future from both the State and the defense.

I'm looking forward to that part of this trial.

 

[RANCH]

I have a question for fellow members. I'm a bit confused by part of the Minnesota definition of "Substantial bodily harm".

How does "temporary but substantial disfigurement" occur?
Does it mean it's temporary if medical treatments can reverse the disfigurement? What if the treatments take many years to see if they are successful? How would that affect a criminal trial?

When I read criminal statutes I often find things like this that are not easy to understand.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02

 

[Cool Cats]

New Body Camera Video Shows What Derek Chauvin Did After Ambulance Arrived

Prosecutors presented a video in court Wednesday from a body camera he wore the night George Floyd died.

The video, never before seen by the public, showed Chauvin’s actions after Floyd was loaded into an ambulance.

As Chauvin approaches his squad car, Charles McMillian, a 61-year-old man who testified Wednesday, can be heard expressing concern over Chauvin’s decision to kneel on Floyd’s neck.

“That’s one person’s opinion,” Chauvin responded. “We gotta control this guy. He’s a sizable guy. Looks like he was probably on something.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulBlume_FOX9/status/1377350638737088516

 

[missy1974]

Ok... so GF's friend that is going to plead the 5th... will that happen in front of the jury? I'm guessing the State could just not call him as a witness, but that leaves the defense to then call him in and the jury would then get to see that?

 

[RANCH]

Ok... so GF's friend that is going to plead the 5th... will that happen in front of the jury? I'm guessing the State could just not call him as a witness, but that leaves the defense to then call him in and the jury would then get to see that?

I don't see why not. The defense could call him as a witness and he would then have to exercise his 5th Amendment rights in court in front of the jury.

That's what Mark Fuhrman had to do in the OJ trial. I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong. JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

I may have missed this somewhere along the line, but can someone explain to me why George was pushed in one side of the cruiser and then pulled out the other side?

 

[RANCH]

I may have missed this somewhere along the line, but can someone explain to me why George was pushed in one side of the cruiser and then pulled out the other side?

From the video it looked like he was placed in the vehicle's left side then ended up laying flat on the seat with his head towards the right of the vehicle. When they pulled him out head first he ended up on the street.