MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #5

[marlins]

IMO, the vehicle theory dosen't add up. For starters, the only two (surviving?) witnesses of the abduction did not report seeing or hearing a car. Also, after running several feet away from the abduction scene, one of the kids actually looked back towards the abduction scene and observed that jacob had dissapered. I don't know how much time had elapsed from the moment the child looked back, but it seems logical that under life or death circumstances (remember the Perp told the kids that he would shoot if they looked back), the child would have waited until a momonet in which he felt safe to look back, hence a considerable amount of time had elapsed. At the same time, If a car were used, the perp would have wanted to get away ASAP. Therefore, the child would have heard a car door slam, or saw a car speed of. Yet, the child did not report any such things, only that Jacob dissapered.

 

[human]

Good points Marlin. And driving in the dark would be impossible. So there should have been car lights.

It is interesting that the kids neither heard or saw a dog.

I do not think my neighborhood is unusual. The cacophony of dogs starts a long way from the dog's home when I walk at night.

I have no street lights in my neighborhood, but there are homes along the route I walk. It is very dark, but not as dark as I imagine the route was for the boys. I cannot see what is happening down the road. I wish others would try walking down dark country roads to experience first hand what I experience.

 

[human]

Now that we have figured out who DAH is, but I am not sure where we can go with it except to leave him in a "maybe" category, I would like to explore the young man who committed suicide.

He is referred to in the posts of 2011 that Sher has above.

I recall that a poster on here was related to the young person who committed suicide. I have skimmed over the posts until my eyes are glazing over, and I cannot find the reference. But when reading, I sure miss a lot.

Does anyone remember this or know who the person might be? What is the story on that?

I believe he said he did it or knew who did it? The person who died, I mean.

Could the posts have been deleted? Does anyone else remember the discussion on this?

 

[midwestphd]

Another thing is that a car hidden in the trees/wooded area near the DR farm would have surely made some tracks, depressed some grass, etc., both while waiting for the boys and while exiting the area. The boys never saw a car, and if a car was involved, it makes sense that the perp would hide it "off road" somewhere in close proximity to the driveway. You could drive through a ditch once and make clear tracks and/or a clear path through the grass. There should have been SOMETHING.

 

[cGorg]

Cars: I have not figured out how cars would be parked in DR's driveway either. DR's statement that the car that drove all the way into his driveway and made a fast U turn is the perp.....I can't make sense of that logic. Neither can I make sense of DR's statement about seeing a small dark car turn around in his driveway. I can understand Kevin's car turning around in the driveway but that's it. If there were cars involved, then how would they position the car(s)? It seems to me either turn around on the road itself or drive in the grass and park near the treeline...in either case face the front of the car west so as to make a quick exit. I assume there would be tracks. Also, that driveway probably had lots of car tracks...how would one know which is the most recent except the last car to drive on that road that night?

Time + Sightlines: I'm sure some of you from the area are already aware of this but I am not from the area so used GOOGLE Earth to visually investigate the area. Between the abduction spot and Jacob's cul-de-sac there is virtually NOTHING but farmland. As a simple test I began the trek from Jacob's cul-de-sac and proceeded to the former Tom Thumb-now vet clinic. I was curious how long it would take. I have no idea what speed the GOOGLE car travels or the software using the forward button...but it seemed relatively close to boys on 2 bikes and 1 scooter. It took 5 minutes to arrive at the abduction site and 5 minutes from there to arrive at the Tom Thumb. Pretty close to what I've seen estimated on this thread + elsewhere. If Ben's account is real and he saw the B brothers at 8:40 then the boys must have started out near that time or just a little later(as per Joy's blog, she stated 10 minutes to get there, 10 minutes to pick out a video + candy, 10 minutes to return. That's 30 minutes. Abduction at 9:15 which is 35 minutes. My point being, there was not alot of time for the perp(s) to get into position. Whoever did this must have seen the boys just as they were beginning their trip. Now having said that, I wondered about the sightlines from 2 vantage points:
1, the 'party spot' in the woods and 2, DR's farmhouse. After I made the initial virtual trip from Jacob's house to Tom Thumb I went back and repeated the trip except I stopped along the way to see what could be seen from various positions. If there were a perp(s) in the party spot and the boys used a flashlight, it appears that they could be seen from this spot and literally surveilled until the passed the abduction spot. There is only 1 copse of trees between Jacob's house and DR's driveway. And if DR were looking out of his house, the boys could be seen until they arrived at those copse of trees. So in either case, the boys moving at a slow speed with a flashlight I think could be seen easily in that black nothingness.

 

[human]

The boys could be seen, but I don't think someone could see the Bahners, unless they had flashlights as well.

Isn't the distance 1 mile? If they were riding bikes, it would not take as long, but one boy had something that was not a bike. I wash picturing a foot scooter. Not sure though.

I mean a scooter that is pushed with a foot and not a motor,

 

[shergal]

I haven't mastered multi quotes on here yet, so will just attempt to answer above comments individually.

Not sure on the person who committed suicide, human. I vaguely recall someone writing about a witness who had seen something related to Jacob, and this witness was later killed or made to look like a suicide, but I don't recall now where I even saw that. It may have been on here in an early thread. I think when researching the Bahners I saw another obit for either one of the senior Bahner's brothers (Robert) or one of his sons who died early. I think the 2011 reference was to a SCSU student who they suspected and later cleared, who then committed suicide in another state.

I agree, midwestphd, there should have been something. But keep in mind, they let DR drive out of there the next morning, so maybe prints weren't really preserved at the scene? I don't think DR's farm was the focus at first at all. They didn't even search his home and buildings until 5 days after the abduction.

Love that you google walked the entire road, cGorg. I did the same thing. I think there may have been more trees back in 1989 across the road from the Kiwi Court entrance where it shows field now, because the perp told the boys to "run into the woods" and not look back or he'd shoot. Can't imagine how terrifying that must have been in the dark if they cut diagonally across that field/woods. In October, any crops would have been harvested already I would think. But maybe they stayed on the road, I've never heard. I agree though, that flashlights out in the country would be seen from a long way off.

Yes, Aaron had a scooter. It's just so hard to believe that some stranger/perv would have been out in the middle of this empty farmland at 9 pm at night at just the right moment to grab Jacob. I've seen a theory floated before that maybe someone was there to rob the Rassier home knowing the parents were in Europe. Thus, they had masks and guns available. But you'd think locals would know that they had a dog. And why Jacob? Aaron was a good looking boy the same age. It's all just so frustrating.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Cars: I have not figured out how cars would be parked in DR's driveway either. DR's statement that the car that drove all the way into his driveway and made a fast U turn is the perp.....I can't make sense of that logic. Neither can I make sense of DR's statement about seeing a small dark car turn around in his driveway. I can understand Kevin's car turning around in the driveway but that's it. If there were cars involved, then how would they position the car(s)? It seems to me either turn around on the road itself or drive in the grass and park near the treeline...in either case face the front of the car west so as to make a quick exit. I assume there would be tracks. Also, that driveway probably had lots of car tracks...how would one know which is the most recent except the last car to drive on that road that night?

Time + Sightlines: I'm sure some of you from the area are already aware of this but I am not from the area so used GOOGLE Earth to visually investigate the area. Between the abduction spot and Jacob's cul-de-sac there is virtually NOTHING but farmland. As a simple test I began the trek from Jacob's cul-de-sac and proceeded to the former Tom Thumb-now vet clinic. I was curious how long it would take. I have no idea what speed the GOOGLE car travels or the software using the forward button...but it seemed relatively close to boys on 2 bikes and 1 scooter. It took 5 minutes to arrive at the abduction site and 5 minutes from there to arrive at the Tom Thumb. Pretty close to what I've seen estimated on this thread + elsewhere. If Ben's account is real and he saw the B brothers at 8:40 then the boys must have started out near that time or just a little later(as per Joy's blog, she stated 10 minutes to get there, 10 minutes to pick out a video + candy, 10 minutes to return. That's 30 minutes. Abduction at 9:15 which is 35 minutes. My point being, there was not alot of time for the perp(s) to get into position. Whoever did this must have seen the boys just as they were beginning their trip. Now having said that, I wondered about the sightlines from 2 vantage points:
1, the 'party spot' in the woods and 2, DR's farmhouse. After I made the initial virtual trip from Jacob's house to Tom Thumb I went back and repeated the trip except I stopped along the way to see what could be seen from various positions. If there were a perp(s) in the party spot and the boys used a flashlight, it appears that they could be seen from this spot and literally surveilled until the passed the abduction spot. There is only 1 copse of trees between Jacob's house and DR's driveway. And if DR were looking out of his house, the boys could be seen until they arrived at those copse of trees. So in either case, the boys moving at a slow speed with a flashlight I think could be seen easily in that black nothingness.

Remember also that while the boys were on their way TO the Tom Thumb, there were several cars in the area. Just seems odd given the small amount of homes back there, that there would EVER be several cars.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Now that we have figured out who DAH is, but I am not sure where we can go with it except to leave him in a "maybe" category, I would like to explore the young man who committed suicide.

He is referred to in the posts of 2011 that Sher has above.

I recall that a poster on here was related to the young person who committed suicide. I have skimmed over the posts until my eyes are glazing over, and I cannot find the reference. But when reading, I sure miss a lot.

Does anyone remember this or know who the person might be? What is the story on that?

I believe he said he did it or knew who did it? The person who died, I mean.

Could the posts have been deleted? Does anyone else remember the discussion on this?

Just my opinion, but I would put DAH in the doubtful category for Jacob's abduction. A guy that troubled - I just don't think he could hide all the evidence and get away with it. JMO

 

[ELOCsoul]

IMO, the vehicle theory dosen't add up. For starters, the only two (surviving?) witnesses of the abduction did not report seeing or hearing a car. Also, after running several feet away from the abduction scene, one of the kids actually looked back towards the abduction scene and observed that jacob had dissapered. I don't know how much time had elapsed from the moment the child looked back, but it seems logical that under life or death circumstances (remember the Perp told the kids that he would shoot if they looked back), the child would have waited until a momonet in which he felt safe to look back, hence a considerable amount of time had elapsed. At the same time, If a car were used, the perp would have wanted to get away ASAP. Therefore, the child would have heard a car door slam, or saw a car speed of. Yet, the child did not report any such things, only that Jacob dissapered.

IMO the vehicle theory is quite plausible. Yes, the other boys did not see or hear a car - but they were running scared as all heck, and were gone to the house within a few minutes. The perp could have left the scene after the boys returned to the Wetterling home. It would have taken a couple minutes for the perp to get Jacob in a car, secure him in the car (remember, the final footprints indicated that Jacob was resisting at this point), and then take off.

The other thing is - for the 1st 15 years, LE completely discounted that the boys did not see or hear a car. It seems odd that LE could just do a 180 on that.

And - the footprints and scent did come to an end SUDDENLY, about 120' up the driveway. That would indicate either Jacob was picked up or put into a vehicle. If picked up, you would think his scent would still be picked up again at some point - depending on how thoroughly the dog search was that first day.

Please note, my insistence that an abduction by car is possible, is not in defense of DR - I just think it's entirely possible that a car was involved. With or without DR's involvement or knowledge after the fact.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Well thats exactlly what one guy says the guy with the police radio he says he pulled in to dr's drive way and backed out and its most likely his car tracks he told police that i don't know his name...not only that but arron says on the way TOO the tom thumb right where they were told to stop he heard a russling in the brush that scared him and that was on the way too the tom thumb which would mean h was in the bush before they went to tom thumb and waited till they come back...from everything i have read and heard i believe it was the guy that i think he was the neibhour is it david rassier the guy next door his parents were gone and who ever did it took jacob with no car i think it was him and he took him right back to his house ..

In the last 6 months it's been revealed (joybaker.com blog - see Kevin's Story chapter) that Kevin did not turn around in DR's driveway, but in the driveway in town where a police officer was positioned. If you read the articles carefully, they do not say he turned around in DR's driveway specifically. It is implied by the way it is written, and I agree that I had thought the same thing. Kevin actually talked to a police officer that night, and the officer failed to report that contact. LE likely omitted that information, thereby leading the news reporters to also assume that Kevin turned around in the driveway at DR's place.

It's another example in a long line of blunders in this case.

 

[ELOCsoul]

somewhere on these threads somebody said that Kevin + DR were in a news video at the same time.....anyone?

No - they appeared within the same news video but at different times. They were not together.

 

[human]

Someone said the dogs in the latest search hit on human bone smell. I did not read that anywhere myself.

LE said that they are retaining items for when there are advances in technology.

Do you think that bones that were removed (by the perp), would leave some kind of scent on the soil, etc in the ash pit? I am wondering what kind of DNA might be there if bones were removed?

 

[cGorg]

I agree with ELOCsoul that cars being involved in the abduction is plausible. I simply do not yet understand how they may bave been parked and exited the scene. Nor do I understand how they relate to DR's statements about the cars he saw. And yes, the 1989 news article about the suspicious cars stated that cars passed the boys going TO and coming FROM Tom Thumb. That makes sense as once the boys reached city streetlights then cars passing by would be normal. One thing my virtual GOOGLE trip gave me was a sense of how quickly everything unfolded-a crime of opportunity for sure but also the possibility of foreknowledge. 30 minutes. Some scenarios developed in my mind for perps
1. DR. If he saw the boys flashlights from his house he had time to walk out to the mailbox...but if so, why would he conceal himself on the west side of the road? OR...he was returning from a run coming south on 16th and saw the flashlights and concealed himself in the tall grass....BUT....runners typically run in the opposite lane against traffic. Maybe the grass was not mowed on the west side? That sound heard by Aaron has always struck me as a perp in the grass. If you look on GOOGLE, you can see DR's house from the corner of 16th and whatever street leads to Kiwi Court.
2. MB + RB emerging from the woods as per Ben's account. They could have been at the party spot, saw the flashlights in the distance and moved into place to see who it was thus placing them in the tall grass on the west side of the road. They would have had to move quick to get in a car but if they did they could have ran back west through the woods to a car near that swamp then drove north and east, and given the boys pace, could have even seen the boys again under the streetlights. Then, drive south on 16th into DR's driveway and wait. This is all predicated on: is Ben a real person, are the tapes authentic? One thing about this scenario is that it relates to the 'suspicious cars' in that area. The people in those cars may have been trolling in the days + weeks before the abduction and simply watching kids in the area.
3. A perp or perps at Tom Thumb or on the way to Tom Thumb to troll....this has been posted before....if they saw the boys coming from the south on 16th, then followed them to Tom Thumb, then followed them as the made their way home, they could have simply passed the boys on 16th BEFORE the rise of the hill. Once past the boys and over the hill the car would vanish from sight from the boys point of view. The perp(s) simply pulled into DR's driveway and waited.
4. Pizza guy or somebody who found out the boys were heading to Tom Thumb....I don't have any ideas on this or think it's that plausible.

So, a crime of opportunity but knowledge and preparedness. I've heard it said: "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity".

 

[human]

As far as DAH, I am only going on what Graber had to say and thinking the person arrested was DAH.

DAH has it together enough to get lawyers to fight to get him out of Moose Lake.

Of course, he would have been sober for awhile at that point.

I cannot even imagine what a person who has been drinking heavily since age 6 would be like as an adult drinker.

 

[human]

I agree with ELOCsoul that cars being involved in the abduction is plausible. I simply do not yet understand how they may bave been parked and exited the scene. Nor do I understand how they relate to DR's statements about the cars he saw. And yes, the 1989 news article about the suspicious cars stated that cars passed the boys going TO and coming FROM Tom Thumb. That makes sense as once the boys reached city streetlights then cars passing by would be normal. One thing my virtual GOOGLE trip gave me was a sense of how quickly everything unfolded-a crime of opportunity for sure but also the possibility of foreknowledge. 30 minutes. Some scenarios developed in my mind for perps
1. DR. If he saw the boys flashlights from his house he had time to walk out to the mailbox...but if so, why would he conceal himself on the west side of the road? OR...he was returning from a run coming south on 16th and saw the flashlights and concealed himself in the tall grass....BUT....runners typically run in the opposite lane against traffic. Maybe the grass was not mowed on the west side? That sound heard by Aaron has always struck me as a perp in the grass. If you look on GOOGLE, you can see DR's house from the corner of 16th and whatever street leads to Kiwi Court.
2. MB + RB emerging from the woods as per Ben's account. They could have been at the party spot, saw the flashlights in the distance and moved into place to see who it was thus placing them in the tall grass on the west side of the road. They would have had to move quick to get in a car but if they did they could have ran back west through the woods to a car near that swamp then drove north and east, and given the boys pace, could have even seen the boys again under the streetlights. Then, drive south on 16th into DR's driveway and wait. This is all predicated on: is Ben a real person, are the tapes authentic? One thing about this scenario is that it relates to the 'suspicious cars' in that area. The people in those cars may have been trolling in the days + weeks before the abduction and simply watching kids in the area.
3. A perp or perps at Tom Thumb or on the way to Tom Thumb to troll....this has been posted before....if they saw the boys coming from the south on 16th, then followed them to Tom Thumb, then followed them as the made their way home, they could have simply passed the boys on 16th BEFORE the rise of the hill. Once past the boys and over the hill the car would vanish from sight from the boys point of view. The perp(s) simply pulled into DR's driveway and waited.
4. Pizza guy or somebody who found out the boys were heading to Tom Thumb....I don't have any ideas on this or think it's that plausible.

So, a crime of opportunity but knowledge and preparedness. I've heard it said: "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity".

I have never read that any cars passed them. Where is that written, please.

 

[human]

I walk every night. There are barely any cars that pass us.

On my dirt road, I walk down the middle of the road, never on the side of the road. No reason to walk on the side. The middle is more travelled and the gravel is packed. Walking on dirt roads is a pain. I imagine running on them is worse, but better on your joints.

When we get to the asphalt where there may be more traffic, we walk by the edge of the road, but not on the shoulder. When we see a car coming, we cross to the other lane. Don't trust drivers at all at night coming home from going to drinking establishments, perhaps.

When I drive on other roads that are popular with runners, they often treat the road as a private running trail. They run in the middle and move over when they hear a car.

 

[cGorg]

The boys could be seen, but I don't think someone could see the Bahners, unless they had flashlights as well.

Isn't the distance 1 mile? If they were riding bikes, it would not take as long, but one boy had something that was not a bike. I wash picturing a foot scooter. Not sure though.

I mean a scooter that is pushed with a foot and not a motor,

That reminds me....it seems Ben would have had to be in the southernmost or last house on 16th to see the Bahners emerge from the woods....but I'm not sure as I haven't been to the site. It was moonless until midnight so very dark. If Ben himself, his house, and the house that he visited could be verified, that would be corroborating information in synch with the time frame as well as the boys path of travel. I've never seen if Aaron described where they drove the bikes + scooter....would be good to know if his recollection matches Ben's account.

 

[cGorg]

I have never read that any cars passed them. Where is that written, please.

Joy's blog on suspicious cars....she posted the article from 1989. Second sentence I think.

 

[human]

How far is it from that house to the site where the Bahner's were seen?

Can you see that far in the dark?