MN MN - Mary, 15, & Susan Reker, 12, St Cloud, 2 Sept 1974

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by shergal, Sep 2, 2004.

  1. Gruffin

    Gruffin Member

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    Sure, "Mary Reker also had her sweater cut down the front and her bra cut off" is a lot like what Notch apparently did to Susie Dukowitz, but then it is also a lot like "forcing a girl to remove her shirt at knifepoint" as well, which is what a woman was apparently set to testify Lloyd Lee Welch Jr. tried to do to her in St. Cloud on or about August 30 (three days before the Reker murders), before she broke free and fled. Kind of makes one wonder whether they both were involved with the Reker sisters' death, and whether Notch was later imitating Welch or whoever controlled Welch. That Notch attacked Susie Dukowitz while with someone else who didn't seem as keen about it suggests that maybe Notch (possibly imitating) played a similar understudy role in the murder of the Reker sisters, only Notch took to it more, either from a naturally worse disposition or from more deceptively corrupting attributes of whoever might have used abuse, etc., to encourage him to get involved in stabbing girls.

    Looking at old newspaper articles, I notice that the Minnesota State Fair in St. Paul ended the same day the Reker sisters vanished and was the third most popular state fair in the country at the time. I wonder if the fair somehow brought Welch to Minnesota. Linda Pagano was last seen alive in Akron, Ohio, early in the morning of the day before the Reker sisters were murdered, at about the period Jeffrey Dahmer (who then lived in Bath, abutting Akron) took up drinking heavily. I wonder if Welch might have temporarily fled there after the forcing-a-girl-at-knifepoint-to-remove-shirt incident, possibly meeting up with main corruptor and driving back to Minnesota. If main corruptor was largely responsible for Jeffrey Dahmer turning into a monster, well, I'd guess he turned into a monster that was a little more monstrous than even main corruptor had bargained for. I doubt there was much connection between them after that incident (assuming Dahmer was involved with the Pagano murder). How a zombie will turn out hard to predict is.

    Cynthia Gooding and Teresa Alfonso also disappeared at about that time from the Florida Keys, but apparently the original records were destroyed in a fire, and so even the date of the disappearance is uncertain. For what it is worth, Minnesota had played Miami in the previous Super Bowl.
     
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  2. Schipperke

    Schipperke New Member

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    Gruffin, there is more to connect the Reker case with Welch than you realize--at least indirectly. A book came out last year just before LLW was set to go to trial -- Two Missing Sisters (Maybe Two Sisters Missing) author's name was Dudley (this is a subtle link too). I have no interest in selling books, but I got my copy from Amazon. The book indicates a cream colored wood side station wagon--like the one reported to have been seen near RT 66 in VA with at least one of the Lyon girls in it about 2 weeks after they were kidnapped-- (with a loud muffler and one headlight) was used in the Dukowitz abduction and again spotted by residents near the quarry on the day the Reker girls disappeared. Dukowitz, while playing dead after being assaulted heard one of the men refer to the name of the vehicle's owner. Then, according to the book, a police officer stopped the vehicle and arrested the occupants. It fails to say what happened to the vehicle. Does St. Paul have a record of the arrest and the information on the owner of the vehicle? The book goes on to characterize the political air and LE around St. Paul as having serious difficulties--just like some of the accusations which have been made in the Lyon case and in the Cesnik case. There are also subtle links to the Cesnik case in Baltimore in 1969. IF THE SW IN THE REKER CASE WAS THE SAME VEHICLE IN ST PAUL. . . I won't go into the subtle links to Cesnik here, but let me know in PM if you are interested. In researching genealogy on all three cases, I think there are links to a number of other cases of missing or murdered. Looking at the book, I discovered some interesting facts--among them, it has no copyright date, which I believe could be because it was RUSHED into release for some reason--maybe LLW Jr. trial coming up. Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. and his father (family) had lived in Jessup which is located along US 1 between Hyattsville and Baltimore. (There are a number of missing unsolved cases within the area between the DC Line/Mount Rainer/Brentwood/Hyattsville/ Riverdale/College Park/Beltsville/ Laurel/Jessup/Elkridge/Arbutus and Baltimore several with bodies located in Ellicott City and/or Odenton and Fort Meade-Federal property.) The Cesnik case has now been reopened for further investigation; and it has brought churches (mostly Catholic) in Baltimore into the same realm of disarray as politics and LE described in the book mentioned. The Cesnik case, sensationalized by the Netflix documentary, The Keepers, brings in possible connection a several other murders around the same time period in Baltimore. I also understand the Shakespeare photo of MacBeth you posted some time ago. I even understand the Florida connection.
     
  3. Schipperke

    Schipperke New Member

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    I did not write the book, the sentence should have read, "In my book, it pointed out
    . . ." The book is only mine because I purchased it. Sorry if it confused anyone.
     
  4. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    ELOCsoul, I downloaded and read your book. It contains some good information. One thing you mentioned was that in the area where Notch hung out there had been a series of robberies - someone breaking into cars and stealing items. I wonder if Mary had been hanging out with her friend and Notch at some time that summer and saw them commit some of these crimes. Perhaps they were extorting money from her with the threat that they would tell her parents that she was involved in the thefts. I seriously doubt she was, but she could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps they were concerned that when she stopped giving them money, she would report their activities. It could provide an additional motive for them kidnapping the girls and killing them.

    An alternate scenario could have involved using drugs, smoking pot with a similar threat used to extort money from her.
     
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  5. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    Hello. Thank you for reading my book! I’m Robert M Dudley, author of the book “Two Sisters Missing.” It’s a self published book, so that may be why there is confusion about the copyright date. The book was released in April 2017, under no particular rush or anything like that. I can tell that three readers contacted me with information about Herb Notch, including the tip that he was hospitalized with terminal liver failure. I in turn contacted Rita Reker, Stearns County, and Fox 9 with that information.


    Again, I would be happy to answer any questions about the Reker case.
    Thanks
    Rob
     
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  6. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    I agree with you that this is a possibility. Also, one thing the Fox 9 story did not mention was that Notch was positively identified in a pair of purse snatchings in 1976. Those went unprosecuted in favor of charged in the Dukowitz case.

    Herb Notch has three common elements in all his 1970’s crimes: a knife, money, and at least one accomplice.

    Thanks
    Rob
     
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  7. Schipperke

    Schipperke New Member

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    Rob, Do you know if there is any information recorded on the Station Wagon in the police files? Owner, Tag #, anything that might indicate where it had been or had been registered previously? I got a good bit of information which may relate to other cases from your book. I am not sure if you have any idea about any of the other possible links. I think Wagner may have some connections to Texas. I also think the missing couple which I understand is also an open case, may have some connections to another case as well. If you want information on those, PM me.
     
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  8. Schipperke

    Schipperke New Member

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    I found your book well-written and full of a lot of information. I am always looking at things in books on these cases from both sides. Unfortunately, you can never tell whether the information is meant to lead you toward or away from useful information. After reading it, I wondered if the suspects may all have been involved in "knowing or sharing information" about this and other crimes.
     
  9. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    I don’t recall the police reports saying anything about who owned the car, but Susie did say that Notch and Wagner referred to someone else, and that led her to believe that’s whose car they were in. The name escapes me now, but it’s in the book. I’m away from home at the moment but will check when I return
     
  10. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    Thank you for your kind words. I have no training or background in writing, so getting more experience has helped improve the storytelling a bit.

    I strive to remain objective in the information I present, and when possible I try to show both sides to an issue or alternate explanations. In the Jacob Wetterling book, for example, I presented the case for The Stearns Truth tapes, but then show why the siblings behind them and other folks involved may have had motivations to fabricate the story.
     
  11. Schipperke

    Schipperke New Member

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    I have your book with all my notes highlighted in it. It was the seemingly minor details in you book that drew my attention--the same things that some readers find annoying. You can't please everyone. I would like to discuss them with you, but not in open forum. The name of the person who was referred to as the owner in your book was "Chuck." Charles Myers was the name which Edward Wayne Edwards claimed was his "birth name." Edwards used lots of aliases according to the book on him titled, "It's Me. . . the Serial Killer you Never Heard Of." This man went on an old 50's TV show (To Tell the Truth, I think it was) bragging about his escapades and killings. Many still believe it was a show-stunt and the book is fabricated. I found genealogy evidence this man may have crossed paths with another alias-user/claimed-serial killer Earl VanDorn Best (Subject in book, "The Most Dangerous Animal of All"), and they may have been connected through a family marriage. This book was written by a man claiming to be Best's biological son who was abandoned as an infant and adopted out only to find out later who he was at birth. Interesting is the fact that both books claim the subjects were the Zodiac Killer. Both claim to have been prolific in having "families with children" scattered across the US. Both are now deceased, but some of the children are now speaking out. Sorting out verification of information contained in books, is time consuming to say the least, and I am not saying everything is true--I am only saying that I am looking for ways to verify. Finding out how accurate you were with the Jacob Wetterling case was a big plus in trust. Congratulations!
     
  12. thenotebook

    thenotebook Active Member

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    ELOC do you think Welch could have been involved as well?
     
  13. Trino

    Trino Well-Known Member

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    Since Herb Notch is deceased, I don't think Stearns County has incentive to find what happened to the Recker girls. Or, maybe they know they can no longer find out.
     
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  14. Tom Fisher

    Tom Fisher New Member

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    Sorry, you are wrong about Zayre Shopper City. The Cash Wise over on Waite Ave was built some time in the 1990's. The location of Zayre Shopper City was in fact at 33rd Ave s and Division St, where the current Save a Lot is located. Your confusion comes from the fact that the Zayre Shopper City building was torn down and replaced by the strip mall currently at that location. I know this because I was born and raised in St Cloud and went there often. I was also a classmate of Suzanne Reker for two days at John XXIII Middle School. We were in the same home room.
     
  15. Schipperke

    Schipperke New Member

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    Changes over time, especially after 40 years,are easy to cause confusion. Same is true of adoptions, living with other family members, or taking on other names. It makes things harder to trace. Sometimes simple things can really mean more that we realize. The same is true of any "hidden" information whether it is deliberate or not. If this was a simple and plain case, it would have been solved long ago. What I realized in reading your post is that a girl was found near a Zayre store in Maryland (she later died without regaining consciousness) about the same time as the Lyon girls disappeared in 1975. I think there was a suspect in the case named Coffey from Bristol, TN/VA area. I think he actually ended up in prison in one of the Carolinas where he died or was executed. Could there be more cases which involve the Zayre chain in the periphery in any other of the missing/murdered cases? I am not sure how wide the chain reached or who owned the chain. It is any less important that recognizing the fact that there were carnivals at a number of the locations on these cases? I am not saying "it is a factor;" I am only says it "could be a factor" to keep on the table just in case there might possible connections to be found in other cases. Were any suspects or victims associated with the Zayre chain, even if only as regular customers? Sometimes little tidbits mean a lot more than we realize. Until you challenged the location put in book, I never even considered the possibility.
     
  16. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    A witness saw Notch and another person harassing Mary and Susanne that day. The man was wearing a green jacket, but has never been identified. There is speculation that it was Steven Notch, Herb's brother.
     
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  17. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    I know that Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole were interviewed in the case, not sure about Welch.
     
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  18. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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    Bumping case up.
     
  19. jaz

    jaz New Member

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    This case has always been very interesting to me so i have followed it quite closely. I was 6 years old when these sisters disappeared. My grandmother thought for decades that her and I may have seen the killer later that evening on the day those sisters disappeared. My grandparents lived in a rural neighborhood of 6 houses, 4 on one side of the hwy, and 2 on the other side, out in the country about a mile out of st cloud from 25th ave on old hwy 15. There was a prowler (it was a younger male) that stuck his face in my grandparents kitchen window as my grandma was doing dishes shortly before 10 pm that day. I was about 10-12 feet behind my grandma watching her doing those dishes, waiting for her to finish them when a face popped up in the window right next to the sink. He was maybe 3 feet from her and she was not looking up to see him. I saw him for about 10-15 seconds, maybe a little longer. He never saw me or even looked in my direction. He was just focused on my grandma. I kept waiting for her to notice him on her own, but she never did. After washing, rinsing, and putting a few dishes in the rack, i cant remember the exact number, i finally told her "Gramma, someone's in the window". She looked up, saw him, and screamed, it scared her so bad. The prowler disappeared instantly. My grandfather, who had been in the bedroom playing his electronic organ, came out wondering what that was all about. She told him that she had seen someone in the window, and that i had told her. My grandpa looked at me and i cant remember whether i nodded or said "yeah", but either way, he grabbed his rifle out of the closet and went out looking for him. He was out there for maybe 15 minutes or so and then came back in. He did not find the prowler. A few days later i left and went back home to the state i lived in. I did not live here in MN full time back then. I spent my summer, from the last few days of May / first few days of June to sometime in the first week of September here at my grandparents home. I did not even know this crime had occurred until sometime around 1981-82. I did not know that the disappearance of those sisters and the prowler in the window was the same day until i was 16 years old in 1984 and my grandmother asked to talk to me about something and proceeded to ask me if i remembered the prowler in the window, then if i had ever heard of this case, then asked me if i knew that those two events were on the same day. I did not. She then asked me what i thought about that, and told me that she thought the prowler that night and the killer may be the same person. So, i was 16 before i even knew she thought these events were related. This creates a "problem".

    A friend of mine lived in the house directly across the hwy from my grandparents. Next to his house (north of his house) and towards st cloud, there was a corn field that was perhaps the size of a city block. Next to that corn field was a section of woods that was maybe 1/3 to 1/2 block thick along the hwy, but went deeper than that. There was a clearing just inside the woods from the hwy where you could drive maybe 2 or 3 cars back there, but not very far. Once parked there, you could walk back on a trail maybe 100-150 feet to another clearing in the woods. At that location, there were 4 logs arranged in a square for benches and a place in the middle for a campfire. This was a teenage party spot. Young people would go drinking beer, partying back there. You could always tell when they were there because you could see the glow from the fire coming thru the woods. It was used maybe 2-3 times a month over the summer. During the day, my friend and I would play back in there every now and then. This is where the "problem" with my not knowing this crime occurred until '81-82 and not knowing the prowler and disappearance was the same day til '84 comes into play.

    Within a few days of when i got back out here in late May / early June 1975 (i was 7 by then), my friend and i went back in the woods where that party spot was. Nothing was really fully greened up by then and the ground was really soggy around there so we did not stay long, but we found 3 items, one of them being a knife, a broken knife. The knife we found does not match the description of the knife used in the murders of these sisters, at least from what i have read. This was not a "small, double-edged knife". This knife appeared to be a kitchen steak knife, and it was broken. A piece of the blade was missing, and it was not around there. The other two items were a large oval sponge, and a piece of pink fabric, possibly a small top for a younger female. I dont know for sure what it was as we did not pick it up. The sponge and piece of pink fabric were soaking wet and sort of dirty. They had "debris" on them. If you have ever watched the snowpack here in MN as it melts in March, April, etc... you will notice that a thin brownish crust layer starts to show up on top of the snowpack. That is the type of debris that was on these items, leading me to believe they had been out there all winter. None of those items were there at anytime during the summer of 1974. This is why not knowing that this crime had even occurred until '81-82 and not knowing the sisters disappearance and prowler were the very same day until '84 creates a "problem". Without knowing the crime occurred, these items just seemed like junk, which is what they could still very well be. I dont know.

    I do not know if my grandmother ever filed a report about the prowler. We never discussed it. She never mentioned it to me. She may have filed one, tho. If she did, it would have been well after the prowler was there and probably well after the sisters were found. The report would have been about the prowler. Her reason for filing it would have been due to this crime. As for me, i have never gone public with any of this before. I have told one friend of mine about this in case something were to happen to me (I'm a cancer patient). As for the kid who was with me when we went back to the woods that day... i have not seen him since probably 1976. I dont think he even knew about the prowler.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this.
     
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  20. ELOCsoul

    ELOCsoul Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"

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    Interesting information. Do you know how close your grandmas house was to where Mary’s and Susanne’s bodies were found?
     
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