MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #10

[Capri]

Dal Gal, I am moving closer to this belief every time I learn more about her. The thought that she may have been born with addiction issues doesn't help (factual background on this would be very clarifying). And every cutter I have ever worked with has said that exact thing: I just wanted to finally FEEL SOMETHING.

Ynotdivein- Sounds like you have some professional experience with cutters. I've heard that "just want to feel something", too, but I'm wondering what keeps them cutting? What do they feel? What is the "reward", so to speak?

 

[PastorJerry]

Thanks, PastorJerry! I can barely tolerate asprin, so have just about zero knowledge in regard to all these medications. Can't even keep them all straight....I once confused zoloft with zantac in a conversation.....duhhhh. This forum has a ton of bright people, thank God. :dance:

That is easy to do as they all tend to sound the same! :crosseyed:

 

[Csquare]

It is MHO that AB was sedated. As a former corrections officer I have seen many times inmates that I know for a fact was on heavy duty psy drugs and they had that lost blank look as AB does in her mugshot.
RAD: If you don't know about RAD look it up. My wife and I went through hell with her youngest daughter who was diagnosed with RAD. We never knew which child was going to wake up in the morning. The meds they had here on they had to do blood test every so often to monitor her levels.
The Insane Clown Poose seene is a very creepy one. My oldest step daughter was into that and there is a good size group at jchs. The boys call themselves jugaloos and the girls are jugalettes. Google some of their song lyrics and see what they sing. Sickning.

 

[Csquare]

W8nc Did you see if any of her family showed any emotion at all during the proceeding or did they even show them?

 

[celticthyme]

Child murderers really bother me. What happened to make this girl want to murder another child? What happened during her formative years? Was she born with some mental defect that predisposed her to commit premeditated murder? Did she suffer abuse or some trauma that caused her to want to harm others? Do any of those things even have anything to do with it? Obviously she, and others who commit the same crimes, know right from wrong, as they go to great lengths to conceal their crimes, but, what drives them? I cannot wrap my head around this one and I simply cannot accept her reason, that she wanted to know what it felt like, for killing Elizabeth. One thing I do know is that this is one sick girl and I hope that she never, ever is released back into society.

Not sure what kinds of studies have been done, but just today read an article entitled " Are criminals Hardwired?" About studies done on brains/ brain chemical differences in criminals studied compared to normal population; having to do with a behavioral lack of conscience, & attachment among other things.

Then I began to wonder if this hard wiring might have anything to do with the mother & fetal development, for example, if the mother was doing drugs, does that change the chemical makeup during vital organ development in the baby??? I am a nurse, and really do wonder about cause and effect in these situations, for which there seems to be no logical defense. Obviously Alyssa has severe mental health issues, not being controlled in spite of therapy and drugs.

Drug abuse affects all populations across the socio economic specter. There are likely all kinds of physical, mental and emotional problems, not to mention the willingness to break laws to feed the drug habit.

In no way am I making excuses here. My initial reaction to this was that this girl is just pure evil.

 

[mia g]

Ynotdivein- Sounds like you have some professional experience with cutters. I've heard that "just want to feel something", too, but I'm wondering what keeps them cutting? What do they feel? What is the "reward", so to speak?

The pain is their reward. I have heard one cutter describe "feeling like she cement inside, and the blood helped ehr know she was somewhat human". It is away many handle stress, and emotional turmoil. It gives them a "visible" pain to concentrate on, instead emotional/mental ones their brains can't handle. Or ateast that is what the doctor I and the cutter dealt with explained to us. (the cutter is now well and hasnt cut in several years)

That being said, it has also become a "cool" thing to do to "fit in" and get "attention" in many teens.

A "real" cutter(being the ones that do it for emotional reasons) DO NOT advertise it. It is a closely guarded secret. Too many times the family has no idea unless they accidently stumble on the cutter dressing, or the cutter goes too deep and bleeds a lot. A cutter with the illness WOULD not advertise it on any social network. My "cutter" often talks to younger kids about her emotional problems, trying to prevent them from traveling the long road she did, but she will never tell anyone about the cutting.

I am not an expert on cutting, only a parent of an recovered cutter(which I believed in the beginning was ALL for attention, until I went through therapy with her) and I also worked in medical and dealt with several cutters for five years.

 

[Dal Gal]

Ynotdivein- Sounds like you have some professional experience with cutters. I've heard that "just want to feel something", too, but I'm wondering what keeps them cutting? What do they feel? What is the "reward", so to speak?

I'd like to know more about this myself! I've only known one cutter, and she was a 25-year old single mother! She was a co-worker...one of those types who never smile and always had something negative to say, so needless to say that I never tried to get to know her. Frankly she scared me. She would literally SCREAM at her young daughter on the phone! If I tried to add some sunshine to her day with a chipper smile or anecdote, she would outright snarl. It was like she didn't WANT to be happy.

 

[W8nC]

W8nc Did you see if any of her family showed any emotion at all during the proceeding or did they even show them?

So sorry, but in the morning hearing, I could just barely see a few people sitting in the first row behind Alyssa & Valentine, but they were not identified at all, so I can't even say who they were. There were obviously many more people in that room, but they didn't show up on the closed-circuit TV we were watching in the media room.

I really did want to get a look at her family. Folks in the court room used a different building entrance than the rest of us, and we were held in our room until the families & witnesses had time to clear the building.

 

[ynotdivein]

Ynotdivein- Sounds like you have some professional experience with cutters. I've heard that "just want to feel something", too, but I'm wondering what keeps them cutting? What do they feel? What is the "reward", so to speak?

In the interest of full disclosure, my professional experience led me to be involved with these teens before treatment.

From my experience, what keeps them cutting and what they want to feel is the same--uniformly, they were raised in dysfunctional environments (parents who drink, use drugs, or simply avoid them). Every one of them had problems relating in what I'd call an "emotionally true" way--they can't trust, they are conditioned to be dishonest, they don't even understand at first how to react when someone shows a real interest in them as a person. For whatever reason, they were cut off early from displays of trust and responsibility and love... and they don't FEEL those things as other people do. When you and I talk about feelings, about loving our family or friends, they do not have a reference point inside to make that real. They have learned that numb is the safest way to get by. And there's little that they can control in their lives at that age. But they want to feel. Humans feel, they rationally comprehend that. So physical pain makes them feel--at least sense wise--and on top of that, hurting themselves is something they can control. They have been continually hurt by those who were supposed to protect them, for so long, they don't know another way.

This is NOT an apology for AB. Please know that.

Does that make any sense?

ETA: With much humility I add a sincere request that readers NOT apply my experiences to every instance of cutting. These were my own limited experiences working with kids who had clear pre-existing issues. While some of them may be relevant in this case, they are not relevant to every child who cuts.

ETA2: I have only had experience with female cutters.

 

[ynotdivein]

She would literally SCREAM at her young daughter on the phone! If I tried to add some sunshine to her day with a chipper smile or anecdote, she would outright snarl. It was like she didn't WANT to be happy.

Dal Gal, hate to say it, but she probably just doesn't know HOW to be happy.

 

[Raebie]

It makes a great deal of sense. Thank you so much for sharing your insight.

This whole thing is beyond tragic on all sides.

 

[vjlaw]

According to KRCG 13 Bustamante's family took her to St. Louis the night Elizabeth was killed to be checked in for treament at a psych hospital. That is why she missed school on thurs. That is something new.

 

[CementPond]

So did the grandparents know that night what she did I wonder?

According to KRCG 13 Bustamante's family took her to St. Louis the night Elizabeth was killed to be checked in for treament at a psych hospital. That is why she missed school on thurs. That is something new.

 

[W8nC]

According to KRCG 13 Bustamante's family took her to St. Louis the night Elizabeth was killed to be checked in for treament at a psych hospital. That is why she missed school on thurs. That is something new.

I saw that too...trying to get a lik to that video online, but it won't come up.

We had all heard she skipped school Thursday with her bf, and was found by a counselor on school grounds with the bf, right? Wonder which story is true?

 

[Raebie]

I thought LE was over at her house on Thursday and she was interviewed on Friday...

 

[vjlaw]

So did the grandparents know that night what she did I wonder?

They didn't say on the news. Maybe she was just acting bizarre and if she had gone off her meds like she was bragging, maybe they were just trying to find out what was going on themselves. I mean more bizarre than usual.

 

[Raebie]

"Who is Alyssa Bustamante?"

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=379234

 

[vjlaw]

I thought LE was over at her house on Thursday and she was interviewed on Friday...

It seems Sheriff White said when they were able to reach her(meaning AB). So it always sounded like she was somewhere LE couldn't actually talk to her.

 

[Dal Gal]

Disclaimer: I offer no mercy to Alyssa for what she has brutally done to an innocent girl and her family and friends.

That said, Alyssa's mother (who I don't believe has been named in the media yet) needs to spend some cell-to-cell time with the creature that she created and, allegedly, neglected. I was GLAD to see that Michelle Lee Bustamante was at court today....I can only HOPE that she realizes the tidal wave, nae tsunami, that drug abuse and ignorance creates.

 

[MDATCA]

If you could ask Alyssa one question what would it be?

How do you think she would answer?