GUILTY MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #11

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by imamaze, Nov 26, 2009.

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  1. imamaze

    imamaze Former Member

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    #10



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  3. PAXIMUS

    PAXIMUS Registered user

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    HUMAN good points and I understand where you are coming from, its tragic on both sides of this issue really, nobody wins.

    I am not sure she can be fixd but I think she can learn to deal with her problems in a better way than she has up to this point. Obviously her parents bear a lot of responsibility as to why she turned out the way she did so I dont really blame her entirely and therefore it is hard for me to support that she be tried as an adult. Yes, she did make the decision on her own to kill but it appears she was never given the right foundation on which to grow and develop upon. By the time her GPs tried to give her this it was too late.
     
  4. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    PAX- I have 2 adopted nieces from a foreign country. One has borderline personality disorder and the other one fetal alcohol syndrome.

    The one with borderline, I thought was getting better. She's on my Facebook, but now I'm not so sure. She doesn't do anything bad except to her own self.

    The other one is just a doll with no impulse control. She doesn't do anything bad except to her own self. Her next drug conviction will land her in prison. She doesn't belong there for sure. My sister is desperately trying to get her committed to keep her out of prison. Don't know if it will work.

    The borderline one was sexually abused and burned with cigarettes. The younger one doesn't remember.

    I have a friend who adopted a boy from an Eastern European country. He has reactive attachment disorder. Horrible abuse and neglect in his home country.

    It's personal with me. These kids did not ask for the life they were born into. It seems so unfair that they have to suffer.

    It seems that with the increase of younger and younger kids doing horrible crimes, they do not need to be in adult prison. But no matter where they are, they will learn new things from their peers.

    We continue to fail as a society and as long as there are so many privacy issues and parental rights issues, Ii don't know what can be done. No agency can communicate with another without permission.

    And we don't want to spend the money up front . We would rather spend it when they are in prison. Where was AB the first years of her life? I bet no one was able to intervene until the damage was done. Too many laws protecting parents, IMHO.
     
  5. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Hi...I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving :)

    Compare Allysa to the 3 kids charged with setting Michael Brewer on fire....they are (IMHO) monsters and I hope they are charged as adults and get maximum

    however...even I have to admit they acted in a group...they did NOT preplan their horrible deed (they didn't even buy the alchohol..they found a bottle of rubbing alchohol and supposedly got their idea)

    I don't see (rightfully so) much sympathy for them

    IF Alyssa had been an almost 16 year old boy who raped a little girl and killed her...then the attitudes would change I bet

    frankly I find her to be even more incomprehensible....she had NO reason at to do her evil deed..just wznted to "see what it feels like" to kill someone

    I personally hope she sees what it feels like to be locked up the rest of her miserable life

    I think she is beyond dangerous

    and yeah..those who feel so much for her..would YOU be willing to take her in? Hey, in a few years she will be out... would you like her to live next door to you??would you like your son to marry her??

    Mentally ill...so is Charlie Manson....tea and cookies for him too??
    Statistically most people in prisons have mental, emotional, substance abuse problems...and many times rotten childhoods

    this girl had hours of therapy , horses, loving family, swimming pool....she just wanted to kill somebody

    I am soooo glad they are keeping the public safe from her.

    I only worry that other disturbed kids will copycat her or "look up" to her
     
  6. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Hi Human....

    it must be so frustrating....I notice you said the word "committed" and that is so hard to do....families with these problems don't really have anywhere to turn

    years and years ago people with "problems" were in institutions....too many of them locked up....but really safer for the public I think

    the movement in the 70's onward to open the doors has IMHO gone too far...especially with the economy so bad there is no where to turn usually. Halfway houses....group houses....or...institutions...are really where a LOT of these people should be ..for their own safety and the safety of others. It is horribly hard to get anyone "committed"...you can only "baker act" them if you are a family member and they are threatning their own life or others, and then they will be back on the streets in days in many cases

    However, it is important to remember that Alyssa was getting help..supposed 2 hours of therapy a day....she was on meds...she was IMHO given love and a nice lifestyle...
    senseless...horrible...and dangerous...that is how I feel and nothing is gonnna change my mind

    At this point I would rather see Charlie Manson paroled than see Allyssa tried as a juvenile. After she is in prison 30 or 40 years then maybe she can garner sympathy and get parole.

    Allysa had jailfood thanksgiving today....what did Elizabeth have??
     
  7. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Here is a beautiful tribute to this sweet little girl
    with many pictures I had not seen before...just heartbreaking

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F1Cj7gVIHM

    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    Sadly YouTube still has the disgusting vile "tribute" video to the confessed murderer, showing her nasty face with blood, her gross pictures..all posted by a sick 13 year old
    who is her "fan"...and other "fans" post there....one calls Allyssa "cool"

    Please help me get this removed...I am sooo frustrated...
    I need people to report this video as the gross piece of crap that it is

    I also hope this sick 13 year old girl is given "help"

    remember the "copycats" of Columbine?

    go to YouTube and search for xXxEmoCuppyCake13xXx

    that is the name of the twisted minded twerp who made this piece of garbage
    glorifying confessed murder Allysa
    Please help me report it..thanks
     
  8. scapa

    scapa Member

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    I find AB's crime confusing and reprehensible. I cannot cast my mind into that of a child/young adult who would kill, brutally, another child. And I'm not sure I'd want her as my neighbour.

    But I also share other posters' concerns about trying her as an adult, either because of an "adult time for adult crimes" credo or because she is "broken" and cannot be rehabilitated. Teenagers are different from adults. They have different brains and patterns. They have, as a rule, less impulse control and a relatively impoverished moral compass. Even the average 15 year-old is not, perhaps, the "reasonable person" that the law takes as its benchmark.

    The truth is, it seems to me, that we have very little notion of how to treat the serious juvenile female offender -- there haven't been many and there are few to no spaces for them. And it is also true that we (I speak here of Canada and the UK but imagine it's true in other places) spend far less than we ought to on resources to reroute troubled kids of all kinds into programs and safe places that will up their chances of becoming productive members of society who will themselves produce productive members of... and so on.

    The cycle must be broken. Bored, angry, self-loathing, troubled kids should not be killings themselves or each other and we should not be calling for their blood or permanent incarceration. No 15 year-old bent on killing a child will stop her- or himself in order to stay our of adult jail. But s/he might never get to that place with earlier, effective intervention. Maybe that can be the "great story" to come out of this bad decision.

    s
     
  9. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Scapa...
    this kid was in therapy 2 hours per day....and had been under care of doctors, therapists...

    what more can they do??

    IF they charged her as a juvie she would have to be released at 21..period

    does that seem fair...or even "safe" for society??

    She will be 16 in January ...21 is 5 years away

    I think it is a good deterent to other kids to see her put away. Already she has "fans"

    Please help me report the offensive tribute to Allysa at YouTube..thanks
     
  10. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't know what the effective intervention is except to remove them from their parents at a very young age.

    However, I do know that kids even beaten with baseball bats want the love of their parents. As they get older and with therapy, some do realize that their parents are not worth the love that they want to give them and get from them.

    The children with reactive attachment disorder do not have a conscience. They are also not likable. They can be charming , but the whole time they are scheming to manipulate the situation they are in. It is conceivable that AB has RAD because her classmates would not perhaps recognize being manipulated. There have been treatments tried to help RAD, and some maybe with lesser forms of it have been helped. I know there were a couple of therapists that were tried for murder because they put a girl with RAD in a blanket to simulate being reborn, and the girl died. I think that the therapists were found guilty.

    I don't think anyone can understand what it is like to live with a severe RAD child unless they have experienced it themselves. It's not pretty.

    She might have borderline personality disorder which means that she has no inner core. They are chameleons and take on whatever personality of the people they are with. Rebels, they are rebels. Conservative students, they are conservative.

    She is narcissistic, obviously, focusing only on her own needs, whatever they may be.

    Maybe someday we'll figure out how to help these people. I don't think we are there.

    As sorry as I am for these children that didn't have a chance when they were born, the needs of the many have to considered.

    AB took a child from someone. If she got out and took another person's life, was it worth it to see if she could get fixed? I'm not willing to gamble anyone else's life on it.
     
  11. eeyorelrn

    eeyorelrn Verified Registered Nurse

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    I, for one cannot see ever giving this young woman a chance on the outside ever again.

    Now whether it be in prision or in a locked mental facility is up for debate. She obviously has severe mental issues, such that intenseve outpatient therapy has not aided- as evidenced by the murder of Elizabeth. The fact that she even had one grave dug is enough to premeditation, even if she didn't dig it until just before the incident- dug prior to means intent, motive, and premeditation. Hher guilt in the acts will not be the issue here IMO.

    I think the biggest issue here is going to be her mental health. If the problems were severe enough, then the defence team has a good shot of putting on a "guilty by reason of mental defect" defence sucessfully. We may not know the extent to AB's problems until trial- until the defense presents her medical records as evidence (if they don't, then I can see the appeals rolling out the moment the verdict is read.) I just cannot see the defense choosing NOT to present this.

    I understand the arguments to whether she should be tried as and adult vs. a juvenile. And in most cases they may be valid. However, I believe that each case needs to be looked at separately. I know several 15 year olds that are more mature than my 33 year old counterparts; then again, I know several 20 something year olds that act worse than my neighbors 3 and 6 year olds. A blanket statement that a teeneager is not mature enough to understand the permanance of their actions is at best underestimating the teens of today IMO.

    In this case, especially, there are definitely mitigating curcumstances. Does that mean I think AB
    deserves a 'pass' so to speak to head to junevile court? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! This young woman is in desperate need of long term inpatient psychiatric care. Committment to a mental health facility is what she needs most. If, at some point she is able to leave there, then she needs to serve her sentence in a prison for a very long time (no pass on paying for her crime).
     
  12. MDATCA

    MDATCA Member

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    I know that it is offensive but they are within the TOS at YouTube. I too am very upset that anyone especially impressionable teens think what AB did was cool. I pray they are not enamored with the attention AB is getting and do the same thing or worse for the attention. It does not matter how many people report the videos it will not be removed. It is their right to feel the way they do just as much as it is yours. This is a great nation that gives us the right of freedom of speech. Without it we would not be able to have access to the internet and sites like Websleuths.

    I don't know if you realize that by asking others to view and comment on the video is actually detrimental to your agenda. The more views and comments a video receives the more popular it becomes. When it hits a certain point it could be put on the "hot" list or others see the ire it is raising and make similar videos. It is best to just ignore. You know the saying "Don't feed the trolls!" This is along those lines.
     
  13. Elley Mae

    Elley Mae The enemy is here. beware

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    She should be tried as an adult, She dug the grave 5 days before the murder, (wonder how many days before that she thought about it) it has been reported that Elizabeth was strangled, stabbed and throat slashed. I don't think we have heard all of the details. She had on her (site) that her hobbies were killing ppl. She is a cold blooded murderer, nothing more nothing less.I see nothing that can be done to fix her. jmo
     
  14. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Very few cases are allowed a plea of "not guilty by insanity"..that is for tv shows, not real life

    The act of concealment negates a true insanity defense....mental conditions are used in the "sentencing" phase, but in the trial phase, hardly ever. The fact she hid the body is proof she is not insane

    A true insanity defense might work for that guy who stabbed and killed a fellow bus rider in Canada and was "eating" him while the cops surrounded them...that is insanity type actions, not running away, not trying to hide it

    or a person standing over a dead body proclaiming "I killed the alien"...that would be an insanity defense..they don't KNOW what they did

    What Allyssa did was coldblooded and premeditated....violent and viscious

    If she was a 16 year old boy how would you feel?? I don't see any replies to that.

    ~~~~~~~~~
    As for youtube...I appreciate your thoughts...but I can't believe a tribute to a disgusting confessed murderer is allowed?? that is unreal

    why aren't you all worried about babycuppycaky?? seems to me with this sort of devotion there will be some fool copycat

    other kids on there admire her too it seems..this is simply horrible and disgusting
     
  15. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    wow....

    YouTube is not a constitutional "right"...hello

    with the tragedies we have seen from facebook, myspace and craigslist,
    maybe youtube should rethink their policies

    how is YouTube a constitutional right??? and your analogy makes NO sense

    I hope if there is a copycat that YouTube gets sued big time
     
  16. bigflaw

    bigflaw New Member

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    Free speech is a constitutional right, the same constitution that grants equality to each and every person in this country. If this video was directly asking people to kill, then that's another story. Admiring a murderer is her right. YouTube is the means by which she chose to express herself. That's the point.
     
  17. gliving

    gliving Just the facts, ma'am

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    Paximus, perhaps you missed the information that in Missouri AB will be held in dual jurisdiction under both the juvenile and adult systems determined by the judge, who is an elected official. We at WS cannot determine her punishment; we only state our opinion.


    http://www.mobar.org/61bc5e96-6ab7-4586-9fb8-cc60bc179a25.aspx

    "Who else is monitoring the quality of the state's judiciary?

    Judges are the only elected officials who have a constitutionally required commission overseeing them. The Commission on Retirement, Removal and Discipline of Judges investigates all requests and suggestions for the retirement of judges because of disability. It also investigates all complaints concerning the misconduct of judges and members of the judicial commission. The Commission on Retirement, Removal and Discipline of Judges is composed of two lawyers, one Court of Appeals judge, one circuit judge, and two non-lawyers. They serve six-year terms. All Missouri state judges are required to retire at age 70.

    To contact the Commission on Retirement, Removal and Discipline of Judges, write to the commission at 2190 South Mason Road, Suite 201, St. Louis, MO 63131, or call 314/966-1007.
    What if I don't like the way a judge ruled on an issue that is important to me?

    Judges are not elected to represent the opinions of voters. Their role is impartial: They must decide who is right and who is wrong in each individual case by applying the facts and the law without favor to either side. However, if you do not like a judge's record, it is your right to vote against that judge when he or she is on the ballot for retention."

    And: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...418FCF884BEA06B1862576750015EFC9?OpenDocument

    "But even if Richardson succeeds in convicting Bustamante of first-degree murder, it's still possible she will end up in the care of the state Division of Youth Services.

    That's because Missouri is one of 22 states to have what is called a "dual jurisdiction" system. Under state law, if Bustamante was found guilty, a judge could consider keeping her under the care of the juvenile system — which is heavy on rehabilitation — until she is 21. At that point, another hearing would be held to determine if she was ready to be released, or sent to adult prison for the remainder of her sentence.

    The "Missouri Model" is praised around the nation because its emphasis on community-based rehabilitation has produced very low recidivism rates, even among the violent criminals — most of them boys — sentenced through the juvenile system.

    It's a system that works, says Harvard University professor Julie Boatright Wilson, because it balances therapy with the rights of victims and concerns about keeping the community safe.

    Wilson, who last year was part of a review of Missouri's juvenile justice system that earned the prestigious Annie E. Casey Innovations Award, said that programs that focus on rehabilitation for juveniles work because those who make it through the program don't repeat their crimes.

    Of the 46 juveniles who have completed the state's rehabilitation program as part of a dual jurisdiction sentence, only 10 have ended up going back to prison, said Heberle. That's nearly an 80 percent success rate, which is much higher than traditional corrections programs."
     
  18. droptoplesabre

    droptoplesabre New Member

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    perhaps the constitution should be "revamped". if it's a "crime" for our kids to pray before lunch in schools, or praise god in public, shouldn't it be a crime to "praise" a murder of a young girl? or that murderer? JMO, but it seems to be a little one sided when it comes to whats fair, as to who we idolize, or praise.
     
  19. bigflaw

    bigflaw New Member

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    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to praise and admire whoever they wish, to believe in whatever faith they like, and to speak about it publicly. That is what our freedoms allow us. One sided? It seems to me that condemning someone's opinion is what's really one-sided.

    As for the prayer in school thing, I would love to have that conversation with you, but it is far OT for this thread.
     
  20. AndresEscobar

    AndresEscobar show your work.

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    I work in criminal defense and some of your conclusions are way off.
     
  21. Bobbisangel

    Bobbisangel New Member

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    That girl is a sociopath. I will always believe that. No amount of love or therapy is ever going to help her. It's to bad that her life was so messed up before her grandparents got her but this girl cannot be repaired...ever. Look at the terrible things that she did before this final act. I think she was just working up to murder. The things that she had already done weren't satisfying her and she wanted to see how it would feel to kill a person next. She didn't give that little girl a thought. She was totally focused on her own needs and wants.

    I would like to know why she dug 2 graves? I've never heard anyone one Nancy Grace or Jane V-M even inquire about only one grave being filled and another sitting there waiting. The only logical thing that comes to my mind is that she wasn't finished yet. I wonder who was next?
     
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