GUILTY MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by imamaze, Dec 9, 2009.

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  1. imamaze

    imamaze Former Member

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    Terms of Service Short Plain Language Version


    We have a detailed, formal Terms of Service (TOS) posted separately, and that TOS is what you will be held to as a member here. It's long and detailed because it has to be in the world we live in, and you are expected to read it, understand it and abide by it. However, we can sum it up as follows:

    1) Be a decent human being;
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    3) Keep in mind that whatever you post will likely live on forever, so think before you press "Submit Reply".
    4) It's a big world. People will disagree with you. You will disagree with them. This can be done with respect, and that's what we expect.



    #12
    #13


    Please Continue
     
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  3. Gray

    Gray New Member

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  4. AndresEscobar

    AndresEscobar show your work.

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    Oh, i thought from the text in your post you thought the lawyers got to pick it.

    Basically, the judge will make a strong effort to pick a place where there is likely to be less prejudice. If Springfield also seems to have a lot of negative press coverage, it will probably not go there.

    But, it's again, its a question of degree. No one likes what AB did, but since AB is facing LWOP there is going to be an effort to make sure that they get the trial right. Otherwise, AB's appeal will be stronger.
     
  5. emeraldeyes85

    emeraldeyes85 Inactive

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    A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

    AB needs medical care not prison.
     
  6. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Yeah...medical care for at least 30 years IMHO

    if she killed your loved one I bet you would think differently

    I think she is a danger to society

    this is fair and legal...why would you assume otherwise?

    she will stand trial as an adult due to the severity of the crime she confessed to

    would you like to see her let out at 21 and maybe be your daughter's roommate?? Your co-worker?
    Or maybe she could marry your son...would you like her as the mother of your grandkids??

    if she was tried as a juvenile she would be let out at 21 with NO record, wiped clean...and that is a danger to society
     
  7. emeraldeyes85

    emeraldeyes85 Inactive

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    I dont know how you got from what I said to what you said BBM. What exactly does that have to do with anything and strangely I have read through some of the past threads and anyone who mentions she should be put in a medical facility instead of prison is asked if they would like to have her come and live with them.

    I dont understand that type of reasoning at all but ok.

    JMO
     
  8. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Hi...what does "BBM" mean?? thanks

    You said more than just put her in a medical facility...you were questioning the way she is being tried as an adult

    the fact is ..that IF they tried her as a juvenile she would be released at 21 with NO record...and then would be free to go anywhere, do anything, no record at all

    you said >>>"therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right" (snipped)

    it is fair and legal to try her as an adult

    and that is your opinon of what is "right"....just your opinion

    I happen to think that it is right to try her as an adult...justice for Elizabeth....and safety for the community that would be forced to have her among them at the age of 21, free and clear, no record, IF they had decided to try her as a juvenile

    but at any rate, it is a moot point..thank heavens they are trying her as an adult..

    this was such a violent and senseless crime, they have a confession, premeditation

    the best she can hope for is some sort of plea bargain and they don't even have to be very generous with that...I think they have a slam dunk if she and her lawyers are foolish enough to go to trial

    I don't care where they keep her...prison or mental hospital or whatever, just so she is not out in society
     
  9. emeraldeyes85

    emeraldeyes85 Inactive

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    Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

    Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.
     
  10. LogicalMinds

    LogicalMinds Former Member

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    Well unfortunately if they try them as a juvenile they get out at 21 with NO record, no parole no nothing....free and clear

    and they don't even have a juvenile facility that would be safe to keep her in...they have a "secure" boys facility for the worst offenders but for girls it seems missiouri only has dorm type/minimum security facilities that she might get out of...and she could also hurt the other girls in there

    probably with a plea deal she might get 25 or 30 years

    have you seen the case of Michael Hernandez who killed Jamie Gough in Florida?? Google them and see

    very similar to this case

    Michael and his lawyers turned down a plea deal...and he is now serving life plus 30 years

    he killed cause he wanted to...had plans...detailed notes...he had a little "hit" list but ultimately killed his shy friend, a sweet boy who was small and shy....slit his throat and stabbed him 42 ? times in the restroom at school, came back and sat at his desk like nothing happened (he wore a windbreaker and gloves etc that he disposed of)
     
  11. Bibliophile

    Bibliophile New Member

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    You have just described at least half of the people in the criminal justice system. AB doesn't have the market cornered on mental illness.

    AB also needs to face the consequences of her actions.

    The early eighties sounded the death knell for any sort of comprehensive mental health system in this country. If it was headed in a positive direction, it is now a pipe dream. When dealing with people who murder, we can't afford to deal in pipe dreams. We don't have a place that will guarantee the protection of society with an emphasis on treatment. What we have is a prison system that provides some mental health care.

    Alyssa knew right from wrong. She was afforded some of the best treatment available. She still chose to commit one of the most heinous crimes the area has ever known. She needs to be locked away from society for a very long time.
     
  12. Kimster

    Kimster Former Member

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    Thank you...I was trying to find these words earlier today and you did it for me, especially the part that was bolded by me.
     
  13. emeraldeyes85

    emeraldeyes85 Inactive

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    We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.

    If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.
     
  14. eeyorelrn

    eeyorelrn Verified Registered Nurse

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    Having worked in the Mental Health field myself (and realizing that this may be a little off topic) I am intrigued about your professional opinion as to rehabilitation to the extent that mentally and emotionally her 'age' so to speak would inprove?
     
  15. JLMcKenna83

    JLMcKenna83 LOL ≠ Lots of Luck

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    BBM

    The illegal drug use is still only a rumor at this point, neither confirmed or denied..

    IMO, What she did is heinous. She needs to be locked away and punished for what she did.. no amount of talking to a therapist is going to help her now.. it hasn't for the last few years.

    Why should Alyssa get a second chance at life? Elizabeth won't.
     
  16. CementPond

    CementPond Member

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    IMO, it has already been proven that rehabilitation does not work for her. She's been receiving help for years and has gone from wanting to only harm herself to harming and causing the death of another. Yeah, seems like that rehab really works. NOT!
     
  17. CementPond

    CementPond Member

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    IMO, based on the bold part, the prisoners THEMSELVES are the ones who make it barbaric. It is the prisoners who go around shanking/killing each other and acting like animals. Not the guards or those in charge. So, put the blame where it belongs!

    And, if you ask me, the damn prisons are FAR from dark ages anyway. If anything, people in jail have more offered to them than people who are NOT criminals. They get free gym equipment, health and dental care, use of computers, free schooling, etc. FAR from barbaric and being in the dark ages. JMO

    And, even if it was, isn't that how jail is supposed to be? It's NOT supposed to be good living. It's supposed to make you NOT want to commit another crime. You should feel like you never want to go back there again. And yet there are many criminals who get out only to commit crimes again just to go back because they had it made in jail. Their words, not mine.

     
  18. Jodibug

    Jodibug New Member

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    Then put her in a hospital in your neighborhood.

    My neighborhood deserves to be kept safe... and that means her being locked away.
     
  19. Jodibug

    Jodibug New Member

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    Please.... by all means, tell us about the times it DIDN'T work.

    Cuz' it's really not a gamble I want to take with Alyssa. Two of my kids have gone to school with her, and I don't want her to ever have a chance to be near them again.
     
  20. Elley Mae

    Elley Mae The enemy is here. beware

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    I imagine there are lots of "things" that people can/will do that rehabilitation would work to cure that person from doing it again, and that what they did was "wrong". Like they didn't know that before hand. I find it hard to put the two words together. I don't think she is fixable, you can't fix broke.
     
  21. Bakersmom

    Bakersmom New Member

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    To everyone who thinks that there is a possibility of rehabilitation... Please open your eyes to the possibility that Alyssa was a very smart girl in her planning, even diabolical. Please consider for a moment that her intellegence made her aware that if she were caught that her age would probably be to her benefit. She obviously was not a misinformed girl. I have a son who is sixteen and his opinion is that she is one scary individual ( that my friends is is an opinion of a peer) She knew better, she knowingly and intentionally did harm and with intent to kill another human being. How do you rehabilitate that? You don't. Something of this magnitude cannot be compared to shoplifting or even experimenting with drugs. The line was crossed from being reckless with your own life into the destruction of another with forthought. There should be no "do-over". You cannot rehabilitate a murderer, pedophile or rapist, it is how their mind works and is programmed to disregard the value of life, so the decision should be to protect society from one who cannot be "fixed"
    I wonder to those who believe in rehabilitation, how in the world can you say that you believe in counseling someone like this? Really? At what point would you feel comfortable in releasing her back into society? The prison systems are far from barbaric, 3 meals a day, cable, higher education, medical and dental. This is hardly barbaric as homeless shelters have far less ameneties and are trying to do the right thing for law abiding citizens who have fallen on hard times.
    IMHO as always - When the value of human life is questioned, you cannot make someone value it over the age of 3.
     
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