MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #3

[Prof]

Respectfully snipped and bolded ~

This is a working theory NOT a fact, we DO NOT know who the killer is, that information has not been released. We know from official info (LE, media) that the suspect is a 15-year old girl that lives near Elizabeth.

This is what we do at WS and sometimes we walk a mighty fine line. However, based on official information from LE, media, and/or family our great sleuths have developed a THEORY of who the killer is and they continue to use the few facts and little official information we have to test and retest the theory.

In this particular case, because almost all sleuths are onboard with this "theory" of the suspect, the boundaries between fact, rumor and theory are a little more blurred then normal. Typically, we don't all agree and we are much more careful about clarifying our posts as "theory" or "speculation."

I hope that makes sense. I think this is why we are having so much trouble with the "rumor" talk.

Salem

You rock! Salem, thank you.
Yes, it is a very fine line, blurred, smudged, faded.... theories are based on facts and evidence and are a result of scientific process; where rumors often are a result of speculation, based often on opinions and personal experience. Theories are objective, rather than subjective.

 

[grinchmaiden]

I have to agree with Danni. Good Lord help those children, they have to be able to speak to an adult about it!

 

[hoppyfrog]

Ohhhhhhh......FedEx it NOW!!!

:angel:

Hoppy

 

[lawlady84]

I know the school board said there was/were/would be counselors at the school. My question is does anyone knows if these counselors are completly refusing to talk to these children about being AB's friend (obviously these kids/teens think the same thing we do about who the POI is)? Are they totally shutting out the idea that these kids are coming to them and wanting to talk about this but because she has not been "outed" to the public they can't talk about it with these kids?

I know kids are less likely to go to an adult to talk about this stuff but I don't get where the "they have no one to talk to except eachother" idea/mentality is coming from if there is in fact counselors in school. Thus the reason i asked the question!

I'd imagine the counselors and students can talk about whatever they want. I'm not sure why its being suggested the kids can't talk about what happened. If the suspect is usually in a class, and she's no longer there... I think the class is going to assume what happened. But I understand the school not making an announcement about it, if only because she's "innocent until proven guilty."

If some of her friends had 1st hand knowledge about the attack I could see LE telling them not to publicly talk about evidence or not to talk to the media. But discussions with counselors are considered confidential - both from the counselor's ethics guidelines and in many states legally - so I think there'd be very little worry about a counselor releasing information that one of the friends told.

 

[gaia227]

Hi,
I'm a local, and personally know AB. We're in the same class, and I've been going to school with her since we were 12. I makes me really sad that she could've done something like this, and makes me rethink my judge of character.

Something I'd like to clear up is that she has seeked help for mental issues in the past. She dresses "emo", but hasn't really shown any outward signs of depressions since two years ago.

When she was around her friends, she was very happy, and bouncy, and open, and I have never witnessed her being a bully. Ever.

There are tons and tons of rumors going around our school, yet none of them contradict another. I'd like to post some of them, but being simply rumors, i can't.

Hi Lillyanne and welcome! As usual I am way behind here. I am a Missouri native (grew up in Springfield) and spent a lot of time in Jeff. City. I hope you are able to find your way back here. It is refreshing to hear from a HS student who is articulate and intelligent (not to say all teens are dumb but there does seem to be some laziness especially in the age of texting as far as vocabulary and sentence construction). I am sure this whole situation is weird and scary for you and your classmates to deal with.

Please understand any suspicion here regarding you just comes with the territory - if we didn't ask questions and verify things then we would be pretty crappy sleuthers!

:blowkiss:

 

[grinchmaiden]

Thanks Lawlady. I feel much better about that explanation.

 

[Capri]

I'm finding one who says if he was there he could have stopped it. It is troubling for sure.

That's disturbing. Sad that a friend would put that much responsibility on themselves(even though it may not be true).

 

[shelbys mimi]

Saw this on one of AB's friends status:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world; there is nothing enlightened about shrinking yourself so that others will not feel insecure about you.

It will not be good for these kids if they have to hold things in and not talk about their feelings. Hope the schools and the parents are equipped to deal with this and can reach these kids.

 

[mydailyopinions]

Saw this on one of AB's friends status:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world; there is nothing enlightened about shrinking yourself so that others will not feel insecure about you.

It will not be good for these kids if they have to hold things in and not talk about their feelings. Hope the schools and the parents are equipped to deal with this and can reach these kids.

Wow!
What worries me are those who are not sharing their feelings because of the fear of being ridiculed for being friends with this "killer"
I can only imagine the fear and confusion going on through half that school..
It is so sad!

 

[Kimster]

Welcome to Websleuths, Shelbys Mimi!

(My little welcoming committee is really working hard today! LOL!)

 

[mycroft]

Advance apology for long ramblings:

Second, using the word "franchise" at the sophmore level is not "too smart".

As I said above, I agree that the term is age and generationally appropriate.

Lastly, there is a lot of talk about goth, emo, and scene going on which is fine but IMO that has no bearing on a person's choice to act in a certain manner in which they know is wrong. So, talk all you want about it, as there isn't much else to talk about until we get more details, but a person with blue hair black nails cateye contacts and so on (obviously being overdramatic here) can make good decisions just the same as someone who is wearing a catholic school girl uniform and prays to Jesus every night ... ya get?!!?

GREAT SLEUTHING THOUGH PEOPLE, TRULY AND HONESTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ITA. I was over at a friend's house a few years back visiting his family. Now a WASPY upper-middle class guy who had just gotten out of politics (for a very conservative lawmaker on the Hill) and was now in IT. We'd known each other since grad school. He'd gone to a very well-known Christian conservative college. Now he's Mr 2.5 kids with the barbeques and the lawnmower. He pulled out some photos of himself as a teenager. He could have been Marilyn Manson himself. (Although, I don't really know anything about Manson except how he looks.)

I was shocked. (I was the good girl from the IL school who hadn't really known people like that.) He said quite simply that it was really a phase in his life. He had the look, and the music, and everything, but his parents didn't fight it. Once he left for college the audience was gone. He went to college and became a regular schmo. He's probably wandering around a golf course in plaid pants at this very second.

This stuff isn't new. Brando explained it years ago: Q: What are you rebelling against Johnny? A:Whadda ya got?

Goths were just coming into my consciousness when I left school. That sort of thing was not allowed at my school, so I only knew a couple of kids from that on free time, but they were outcasts. I saw others at the mall.

In that time and place getting into this stuff was a way to find acceptance as I saw them. They could afford the necessary black clothing regardless of family income. Looks didn't seem to be as important as other cliques because they were covered in makeup. Being a loaner was part of the mystique. I think they got into this as a result of the way they were treated. It was a social survival technique, among other things is what I'm saying. (ETA: Joining what clique in high school wasn't a social survival technique? But I mean they did what they could with their options.)

The relationship between this stuff and violence is at best a correlation (and I don't even see that) and not a causational one.

And I won't even mention the disaster that such causational thinking caused on the Memphis III matter.

Of course, there was this case, where they took this vampire stuff as an MO, but there were clearly issues with the kids involved.
http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/vampireklan.htm

That's not causation. That seemed more of a pretense to me for their criminal inclinations than a social fad.

End of rant in defense of a social group that I admit I barely knew. (Except for two good friends who came out of the closet when we were adult professionals. I'm not mentioning the other one because I'm saving that as blackmail material.)

 

[Prof]

"Cole County Circuit Judge Jon Beetem did open the courtroom for arguments on whether people should be allowed to observe a Nov. 18 hearing to determine whether the teen should be tried as an adult. Beetem said he would announce his decision in writing.

Kurt Valentine, the teen's lawyer, said Elizabeth's death has put Jefferson City in "turmoil" and that opening the hearing could hamper the chances for a fair trial.

"There's been a lot of speculation, but now we will have in giant headlines my client's name," Valentine said. "There is no way in the world that could possibly be in the best interest of this particular juvenile."
Samantha Green, the attorney for the juvenile office, argued that the state Supreme Court has ruled that hearings can be open for juveniles accused of crimes that would be the most serious felonies if committed by an adult. She said court records and the exhibits to be presented could be closed or sealed to protect the suspect's privacy."

snipped: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iL2APTMLoOIa6NBqXxEd_DKqAkDQD9BK8UGO5

Above bolded by me
Perhaps your client would feel differently? I know she is only 15, and I do feel for her, but did she think that she was going to get away with this? She might have buried E deep in the woods, but it was in the woods in her own neighborhood. It was a child who just left her home. She did not seem to take much precaution against getting caught. If this was premeditated, and she did not want to get caught, why did she not take more precaution? (I think I left out the rumors that would also indicate some indifference to getting caught, too.)

 

[JenB]

I am so sorry to do a fly-by post. I have been trying to catch up for hours but I'm here with my children and therefore I fear I'll never catch up, so I apologize if someone has posted this! For some of the other people having trouble catching up, the person we're discussing, who may or may not be the suspect, is a member of a group called "gomo losers." Googling that will bring you to this small group on a social networking site.

I didn't know what "gomo" meant. According to the Urban Dictionary, one meaning is a combination of "Goth" and "Emo."

 

[Prof]

Saw this on one of AB's friends status:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world; there is nothing enlightened about shrinking yourself so that others will not feel insecure about you.

It will not be good for these kids if they have to hold things in and not talk about their feelings. Hope the schools and the parents are equipped to deal with this and can reach these kids.

That's a quote from Marianne Williamson's book "A Return to Love"

 

[Capri]

Article about the teacher/advisor at the High School who committed suicide.

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/27/news_local/065local15currieremembered09.txt

 

[Prof]

I am so sorry to do a fly-by post. I have been trying to catch up for hours but I'm here with my children and therefore I fear I'll never catch up, so I apologize if someone has posted this! For some of the other people having trouble catching up, the person we're discussing, who may or may not be the suspect, is a member of a group called "gomo losers." Googling that will bring you to this small group on a social networking site.

I didn't know what "gomo" meant. According to the Urban Dictionary, one meaning is a combination of "Goth" and "Emo."

I did post a comment about this group a few days ago. I hoped it was okay to discuss, but I was not sure. I did not post the instructions to find it, because I was not sure that we are allowed to point to that site...

 

[x_files]

Meaning, she wore a lot black, sad little shirts from hot topic, and a lot of eye-liner. It's kind of hard to define the style... but generally a lot of bracelets were involved, and converse...

From the online photos I saw a typical teen nothing too bizarre or would send me a red flag. Unless you guys hve found something far more sinister.
Converse, bracelets hardly makes a felon or murderer.
I would be interested in her blogs on myspace or anything that would indicate murderous rage or fantasies.
Sometimes anti-depressants may push some teens to suicide or uncontrollable rage if a high dosage or wrong script is given.
It's not an excuse but should be looked into as well. A history of violence, and mental instability would be a red flag not her clothes.
Otherwise anyone dressed in black or an actor in a serial murder movie would be a killer.

 

[Ike83]

BTW LE CAN name name's in a juvenile case. They aren't naming names to keep from tainting potential jury polls and having to change venue.

IMO, not only that but to further their ongoing investigation.

It is also not a crime for the media to name the juvenile. But with it being kept under wraps by LE, they (media) do not have a source to corroborate the minor's identity.

 

[hoppyfrog]

Continue at

Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Tricia]

Hi,
I'm a local, and personally know AB. We're in the same class, and I've been going to school with her since we were 12. I makes me really sad that she could've done something like this, and makes me rethink my judge of character.

Something I'd like to clear up is that she has seeked help for mental issues in the past. She dresses "emo", but hasn't really shown any outward signs of depressions since two years ago.

When she was around her friends, she was very happy, and bouncy, and open, and I have never witnessed her being a bully. Ever.

There are tons and tons of rumors going around our school, yet none of them contradict another. I'd like to post some of them, but being simply rumors, i can't.

Hi All,

LillyAnne contacted me by email before I realized she was a classmate of the accused.

Before I realized this I emailed back that I would like to talk to her.

When I realized she was the same age (or close to it) as the accused I asked her, actually begged her, not to post.

As much as I would love inside information it is just not right to have a teenager associated with something as traumatic as this posting about it on Websleuths.

I told her that if she wanted to post about it anyway and went to another forum people would try and contact her and she would have no idea if those people were safe or not. I can only imagine if she went on some of the other lowlife forums that will post and say anything.

Don't you all agree that it is not a good idea? I hope you understand.

I also told her that if she and a parent wanted to call me to talk about this I would be glad to explain the pitfalls of posting.

She has no idea what she is getting into. It's hard enough when you are an adult to jump into a forum. Let alone when you are a kid involved in something as tragic as this.

Thank you for understanding.