MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 mos, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011

[RANCH]

Exactly. And how does it explain the cadaver evidence the cadaver dog detected in the parents bedroom?

I'm not sure what "cadaver evidence " is. I never heard that any evidence was recovered in the bedroom that supported the HRD dog alert. JMO

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I'm not sure what "cadaver evidence " is. I never heard that any evidence was recovered in the bedroom that supported the HRD dog alert. JMO

Cadaver evidence IS the evidence. It means the dog alerted to human decomposition in the bedroom. It cant be more specific, but it is evidence nonetheless.

 

[JeannaT]

Cadaver evidence IS the evidence. It means the dog alerted to human decomposition in the bedroom. It cant be more specific, but it is evidence nonetheless.

What dogs "communicate" isn't evidence. Only what they locate that can be observed by humans. Dogs that appear to have located something but it can't be verified by humans is only an interesting clue, not evidence.

That's why no one ever gets arrested in airports or schools if a drug dog hits but no drugs/paraphernalia are found. Because the dog has communicated it thinks there is evidence present, and thus probable cause to search, but when no evidence is located no charges are filed.

Because the dog's communication isn't evidence.

 

[RANCH]

What dogs "communicate" isn't evidence. Only what they locate that can be observed by humans. Dogs that appear to have located something but it can't be verified by humans is only an interesting clue, not evidence.

That's why no one ever gets arrested in airports or schools if a drug dog hits but no drugs/paraphernalia are found. Because the dog has communicated it thinks there is evidence present, and thus probable cause to search, but when no evidence is located no charges are filed.

Because the dog's communication isn't evidence.

Well said.

Good HRD dogs are trained to alert to the scent of human decomposition which can be decomposing blood and not necessarily a dead body. JMO

 

[redheadedgal]

What dogs "communicate" isn't evidence. Only what they locate that can be observed by humans. Dogs that appear to have located something but it can't be verified by humans is only an interesting clue, not evidence.

That's why no one ever gets arrested in airports or schools if a drug dog hits but no drugs/paraphernalia are found. Because the dog has communicated it thinks there is evidence present, and thus probable cause to search, but when no evidence is located no charges are filed.

Because the dog's communication isn't evidence.

you are incorrect.

1 The case with a legal significance may not yet have been fully appreciated, is that of Jeanette Zapata. in Dane Country, USA. In 1976 she served her husband Eugene Zapata with divorce papers. She went missing shortly afterwards. 29 years later dogs alerted in the basement of the family home, and in several other places where the family had lived over the intervening time. At trial his lawyer persuaded the judge that the dog’s finding could not be admitted, since the places in which they had alerted indicated that he had carried the body round to everywhere he had lived, and it was suggested that this was preposterous. The jury failed to reach a verdict. Before his retrial however, he confessed, and crucially confirmed that he had in fact transported the body round before disposing of it. The dogs had been absolutely accurate. No body has been found.

2 The recent case of Bianca Jones, a 2 year old girl murdered by her father D’Andre Lane in Detroit USA, with the added details of an alleged abduction, was an occasion when Mr Martin Grime, a British retired police officer, was working for the FBI. His evidence of the alerts by his dog was admitted to show that Bianca was dead whilst in the back of the car, and not taken by armed men as was being alleged. Lane was convicted, though no body has been found.

3 The trial of Adrian Prout, in 2010, for the murder of Kate Prout, his wife, in the UK, was notable again for a verdict of guilty, despite no body having been found. Dogs had indicted the presence of a body in the house, but nothing had been found. Some time after his conviction Prout confessed, and indicted the location of the body, confirming that the dogs had been absolutely accurate in their findings.

4 In the murder of Susan Pilley in Edinburgh, by her colleague David Gilroy, in 2010, the court heard that the dogs had alerted in the office basement garage and in two areas of the boot of Gilroy’s car, even though this had been cleaned recently with fluid or air freshener. The defence failed to convince the jury that the absence of physical evidence entitled his client to acquittal. He was convicted. No body has been found.

5 Cori Baker from Oklahoma was murdered by her sister’s boyfriend Marquis Bulloch, in 2007. He changed his story several times whilst being investigated, and the dogs, partly funded by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, were brought into search a large area after a skull had been found. They alerted in several places. No other physical evidence was discovered. He was convicted

6 The case of Guadeloupe Montano from Kane County, USA, is now complete. It is alleged that she was murdered by her husband Aurelio Montano in 1990. It may be the first time that the dog’s alerts have been used as evidence in that State. They indicate that the body lay in one position and was then moved to another. The trial took place in October 2013. No body has been found. He was convicted

7 The case of Amir Jennings, allegedly killed by her mother Zinah Jennings in 2011, involves a mother who reported her son missing. Dogs searched the house and the car, and human blood was then found. No body has been found. Zinah Jennings was convicted on a charge of unlawful conduct toward a child, and sentenced to 10 years

8 The alleged abduction of Isabel Mercedes Celis has been called into question by the findings of two dogs, one a cadaver dog, in the family home. The findings were said to be “significant”, the house is being treated as a crime scene and the matter is still under investigation. No body has been found.

9 The disappearance of 6 year old Etan Patz in New York 33 years ago, has already shown the almost unbelievable feats of which cadaver dogs are capable. In this case pads of absorbent material were left for a time on the concrete floor of the basement and then presented to the dogs for testing. As a result the concrete floor was then ripped up. The handler Englebert said. "We as human beings never lose our scent. If [a body] had been there for a while, that scent would still be there," she said, indicating that even if investigators do not find remains in the basement, it is possible human remains may have once been there before being moved.” The trial of Pedro Hernandez, who has admitted kidnapping and murder, just concluded with a finding of guilty of murder. No body has been found.

10 The cold case of 14 year old Melanie Melanson, from Massachusetts USA, who disappeared 20 years ago, has been given fresh impetus through the findings of a cadaver dog which alerted in an area targeted following a tip off to Police.

11 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.

12 The infamous case of Caylee Anthony, whose mother Casey Anthony was accused of murdering her in Orlando USA, in 2011, was also notable in that the evidence of the cadaver dog handler was admitted, even though the body was found later at a different location. The dog alerted in the boot of the car, and it was alleged that the mother had then dumped the body. The evidence was highly detailed, with full description of the system of ‘final trained alert’ by the dog showing an exact position, distinguished from a more general interest. In the event Anthony was not found guilty of the murder, but was convicted of several lesser offences. There are moves to have the case reopened at Federal level.

13 In the UK, the case of Kirsi Gifford-Hull, in Winchester in 2005, is of interest since although the body was discovered by a man walking a dog, and the offender Mike Gifford-Hull had made a public appeal at a press conference for his wife to return, cadaver dogs had already alerted some weeks earlier in the house and in his car during the initial search for a “missing person”. After the trial he told officers that when he saw the dogs alerting in the car he had contemplated making a full admission. He was convicted.

 

[Karinna]

I'm not sure what "cadaver evidence " is. I never heard that any evidence was recovered in the bedroom that supported the HRD dog alert. JMO

By cadaver evidence it means a cadaver detection dog alerted
(quote)
A cadaver dog searching for evidence of missing 11-month-old Lisa Irwin "indicated a positive 'hit' for the scent of a deceased human" next to her mother's bed, according to a police affidavit released today.

The affidavit was filed with a Kansas City court to request a search warrant of the family home. That search was carried out Wednesday and police left with several items.

The court document also indicated that Lisa's parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, restricted police access to the home.

"The only areas extensively processed for DNA and fingerprints during the consent were the baby's bedroom and possible points of entry," the document states.

"The extent of the search had been limited in nature with consent" of the parents, police stated in the request for the search warrant.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-baby-lisa-cadaver-dogs-detect-smell-deceased/story?id=14786129

 

[Leomoon80]

By cadaver evidence it means a cadaver detection dog alerted
(quote)
A cadaver dog searching for evidence of missing 11-month-old Lisa Irwin "indicated a positive 'hit' for the scent of a deceased human" next to her mother's bed, according to a police affidavit released today.

The affidavit was filed with a Kansas City court to request a search warrant of the family home. That search was carried out Wednesday and police left with several items.

The court document also indicated that Lisa's parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, restricted police access to the home.

"The only areas extensively processed for DNA and fingerprints during the consent were the baby's bedroom and possible points of entry," the document states.

"The extent of the search had been limited in nature with consent" of the parents, police stated in the request for the search warrant.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-baby-lisa-cadaver-dogs-detect-smell-deceased/story?id=14786129

I recall hearing at that time too, that its possible the cadaver dogs honed in on a "false positive", meaning, feces may have given off the same type of reponse by the dogs. So, nothing really came of it.

Perhaps like lie detector tests they are not foolproof either.

 

[redheadedgal]

I recall hearing at that time too, that its possible the cadaver dogs honed in on a "false positive", meaning, feces may have given off the same type of reponse by the dogs. So, nothing really came of it.

Perhaps like lie detector tests they are not foolproof either.

the fbi dogs brought into the irwin house would not alert on feces. they are trained well beyond that point. there is much more info about this in the dog threads in this forum or the mccann forum, if you're interested.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I recall hearing at that time too, that its possible the cadaver dogs honed in on a "false positive", meaning, feces may have given off the same type of reponse by the dogs. So, nothing really came of it.

Perhaps like lie detector tests they are not foolproof either.

Whatever they alerted on was human decomposition of some kind. It could have been blood from a cut someone had, or it could have been a dead body on the floor. Either way it means that *something* decomposed there.

 

[Leomoon80]

"To further complicate matters, (Irwin's lawyer) Tacopina in a conversation with Judge Jeanine Pirro announced that he had retained the world’s foremost expert on cadaver canines, and was told that a dog trained to alert on human decomposition will also alert on human feces."

I knew I didn't imagine this statement!

 

[Karinna]

the fbi dogs brought into the irwin house would not alert on feces. they are trained well beyond that point. there is much more info about this in the dog threads in this forum or the mccann forum, if you're interested.

Yes you are right, A Cadaver dog is trained to alert on cadaver only, and a blood dog will alert only to blood. That's why the two dogs Eddie & Keela in the McCann case alerted to seperate cadaver & blood detection in their holiday apartment & in the hire vehicle.

 

[Karinna]

Whatever they alerted on was human decomposition of some kind. It could have been blood from a cut someone had, or it could have been a dead body on the floor. Either way it means that *something* decomposed there.

A cadaver dog doesn't alert for blood though, only what a body gives off after death which is cadaverine. As far as i know anyway.
https://www.thespruce.com/cadaver-dogs-1113771

 

[redheadedgal]

re: morse's accuracy (one of the dogs martin grimes brought to the irwin house)

A cadaver dog with what handlers call near-perfect accuracy passed 30 cars in an impound lot before alerting on a silver Mercury Grand Marquis driven by a Detroit father charged with killing his 2-year-old daughter.

www.dfp.com/2012/10/04/dog-gave-signals-about-child-expert-testifies

 

[Karinna]

What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World
Cat Warren is a university professor and former journalist with an admittedly odd hobby: She and her German shepherd have spent the last seven years searching for the dead. Solo is a cadaver dog. What started as a way to harness Solo’s unruly energy and enthusiasm soon became a calling that introduced her to the hidden and fascinating universe of working dogs, their handlers, and their trainers.
Sounds like an interesting read.

 

[redheadedgal]

an excellent post/point from a WS member: clutchbag

The main point many people are missing is that cadaver dogs do not alert to living people and their remains. i(f) they di(d) they would not be called cadaver dogs and they would be useless in any investigation if they alerted to a hundred different smells

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...on-scent-in-DBs-bedroom&p=8645016#post8645016

 

[Karinna]

an excellent post/point from a WS member: clutchbag



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...on-scent-in-DBs-bedroom&p=8645016#post8645016

Exactly. I have read where a good cadaver dog can even alert to a deceased person that is under water, and think that's amazing.
(quote)
Even when a body is submerged in deep and murky water, a specially-trained dog can sniff its whereabouts from the surface.
http://www.forensicmag.com/news/2015/09/cadaver-dogs-locate-underwater-corpses

 

[Jewels53]

I wonder what has been going on to solve Lisa's case? It will be 6 yrs in Oct.! Will she ever be found alive or deceased? I never see anything in the KC news circuit about this case until the anniversary time.

Makes me so sad!

Even the family FB page needs updated. http://findlisairwin.com/
It has a lot of out dated info on it. imo moo

 

[Shelby1]

I wonder what has been going on to solve Lisa's case? It will be 6 yrs in Oct.! Will she ever be found alive or deceased? I never see anything in the KC news circuit about this case until the anniversary time.

Makes me so sad!

Even the family FB page needs updated. http://findlisairwin.com/
It has a lot of out dated info on it. imo moo

Sigh. Yep.

IMO, they won't update it unless some kind of news breaks so that they can look like they care.

 

[Jewels53]

I wonder what has been going on to solve Lisa's case? It will be 6 yrs in Oct.! Will she ever be found alive or deceased? I never see anything in the KC news circuit about this case until the anniversary time.

Makes me so sad!

Even the family FB page needs updated. http://findlisairwin.com/
It has a lot of out dated info on it. imo moo

Bumping this up!

:bump:

Who is searching for Lisa Irwin?

 

[amateurwebtective]

It's a shame when any case, but especially one like this, goes cold. I'm almost certain we'll never find Lisa Irwin (six years and not a single trace of forensic evidence), but I still hold out hope that someday—hopefully soon—we'll find out what happened.