MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 mos, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011

Discussion in 'Lisa Irwin' started by Seymour Krelborn, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    No one has been publicly cleared or named a suspect in this case.

    David Finkelhor is quoted in the article you linked. He is the director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire and a researcher for the National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children. He wrote this article for Washington Post in 2013. This part stood out to me...

    IMO, statistics are something to consider, but looking at where the evidence leads is much more crucial. Rare does not mean impossible. Rare does not mean it never, ever happens.
     


  2. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    I remember when Judge Jeanine Piro on Fox News went to the house and interviewed Lisa’s parents. I still don’t think anyone intentionally harmed Lisa, I think it was a tragic accident that was covered up for fear of losing the other children. I don’t think the truth will ever be publicly known.
     
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  3. Jewels53

    Jewels53 Forever in my Heart!

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    Between two periods -- 1983-1992 and 1993-2006 -- the percentage of abductions in hospitals and other health-care facilities fell from 63 percent to 32 percent, while the percentage of abductions in private homes grew from 29 percent to 49 percent. The overwhelming majority of abductors -- 96 percent -- were women. And almost all of the abducted babies -- 95 percent -- were found.

    Male strangers very rarely abduct babies, said David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire. "The main motive is getting a child to raise as their own," he said. "Men in general don't want to be burdened by the care of a child of this age who has so many needs."

    https://consumer.healthday.com/care...tal-baby-abductions-a-new-concern-619077.html

    This is from the same link as above. Where 96% are usually women, and men rarely abduct baby's, which would debunk the man carrying a baby around.

    I found more statements in the article against the likely hood of abduction then for the possibility. imo

    As far as I know there is no investigation going on except that they are still following leads. It has been 6 years now unless something new comes up I doubt if much is going on in the investigation. again imo moo
     
  4. neesaki

    neesaki Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the statistical data. I think we might want to use some caution in relying on statistics to answer the mysteries and questions of life. After all, they are only statistics. And real life is.... well, real life.

    And the fact is that people, male and female, do abduct children of various ages from various places, including from private homes. Every case is different, and no one can say it never happens or that it couldn’t possibly have happened. JMO
     
  5. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    semantics aside,

    jersey cleared
    Police never named Tanko a suspect and said he cooperated with investigators who were satisfied with his answers.

    http://www.azfamily.com/story/33288...es-revealed-in-baby-lisa-irwins-disappearance


    jeremy cleared
    “They were very quickly able to rule Jeremy out,” says defense attorney Cyndy Short.

    https://www.people.com/crime/baby-lisa-irwin-2016-missing-update-parents/amp/


    deb?

    A surveillance camera showed Jeremy on the job. But Deborah was different: No independent witnesses could corroborate her timeline of that night, Short says.

    "I think it's clear they are focusing on the parents and that just does not bode well for this investigation. It's clear police are focusing on mom from the searches at the home to the areas close by. We can surmise what they are focusing on by what's going on."

    http://www.kshb.com/news/region-missouri/northland/former-fbi-agent-explains-why-investigators-searched-the-irwin-home-again
     
  6. thepinkdragon

    thepinkdragon Verified US Army Veteran/Certified Veteran's Menta

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    Lisa's case is what brought me to WS. Now, 6 years later I live less than 30 minutes from where this happened. I would be lying if I said I don't look at kids her age to see if it could be her whenever I'm in KCMO.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  7. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    http://www.kctv5.com/story/16077691/picerno-witness-claims-handyman-paid-300-for-kidnapping

    From another report no longer online. This is about the male next door neighbor, but it shows they have been careful not to publicly rule any one out.

    These comments were both made in November 2011. Historically, KCPD has confirmed very little information in this case.
     
  8. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    An internal investigation, which began in late 2015, revealed gross negligence and mishandling of cases within the KCPD's Crimes Against Children unit. During the course of the internal investigation, in early 2016, seven of the unit’s eight detectives were suspended.

    Much more info about the internal investigation here:

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article101962597.html

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article121466762.html

    The KCPD Crimes Against Children unit led the investigation of Lisa's case for at least the first six months. Lisa's case was high profile and exceptional. Clearly, many different detectives, agencies (including FBI) and resources were initially utilized to find her. Many, many leads were followed. Early reports indicate that more than 300 law enforcement officials were working to find Lisa in the first week. Sondra Zink, a lead investigator on the case, was interviewed about the investigation in this article. She is not among the suspended detectives. According to that article, a group of investigators remained solely focused on Lisa’s case until about mid-March 2012, when they started taking on other cases. Zink transferred to another unit around that time.

    http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/22/3281893/kc-police-disband-baby-lisa-command.html

    November 22nd, 2011

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/crime/article24727189.html

    April 4th, 2012

    http://fox4kc.com/2012/04/04/baby-lisas-disappearance-continues-to-stump-police-six-months-later/

    http://www.kctv5.com/story/17332959/search-for-baby-lisa-irwin-grows-cold

    Although law enforcement clearly put a lot of effort into the investigation, I have to wonder if these failures in the unit had any effect on this case. The mishandling of cases within the department have and will become a part of many court cases, since attorneys can bring up information that could undermine a detectives believability on the witness stand. Did any of these suspended detectives work on Lisa's case in the beginning, and to what extent?*** In the months and years after her disappearance, did this unit properly investigate tips and leads? Have detectives in this unit been assigned the case all this time, or has it been transferred to detectives in other units since April 2012? I truly hope Lisa's case is being worked on by professional, competent, unbiased investigators who follow the evidence where it leads.

    ***One of the Kansas City Star articles above named the detectives involved and listed how long they had worked in the unit. One of the detectives worked in the unit for 17 years. The other 6 detectives worked in the unit for 9, 8, 7, 3, 2, and less than 1 years.

    In the first six months, tensions between family and police were widely reported. Early on, the family was frustrated because they felt KCPD was focusing too much on Deborah and not focusing enough on the other leads pointing outside the home. They also felt upset because police were not updating them or providing answers about tips and leads, which is a common occurrence among families of the missing.

    In more recent years, past tensions between the family and KCPD have seemingly improved. October 2014:

    In January 2015, months before the internal investigation began, Deborah said KCPD had just assigned a new lead investigator. She said, “They're following up a minimum two tips a week, two leads. Which I think is really good after three years.”

    In May 2015, KCPD launched a new Missing Persons/Cold Case unit. I am curious to know if they have taken on Lisa's case.

    In October 2015, family attorney John Picerno said Deborah works actively with KCPD whenever they call her, or she’ll call them and talk. He said he thinks they are treating it as a missing persons case.

    In Feburary 2016, when Lisa's new age progession was released, Lisa's parents did an interview with FOX 4 Kansas City. They said they keep in contact with a new sergeant assigned to the ongoing investigation. “We've gotten few tips in and we send them to police. Now whether or not they're substantial enough to help in the investigation we're not sure, but there's no such thing as a tip too small.”

    In October 2016, Lisa's parents sat down for an interview with KCTV5. This article states that although police originally zeroed in on Deborah as a possible suspect, the parents say they hold no grudges.

    In that same interview, Jeremy said he thinks police know who they need to be looking at. Deborah stated she understands why police focused on her.

    She expressed this again in November 2016, when Lisa's case was featured on People Magazine Investigates.

    People Magazine also spoke with Maj. Steve Young.

     
  9. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    lol. all that ^^ informs absolutely nothing about how the assigned LEO's handled lisa's case.
     
  10. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    this is the search warrant KCPD obtained for the bradley-irwin house:
    http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/Baby_Lisa_Search_Warrant.pdf

    detectives david albers and kimberly shirley-williams names are clearly visible.

    cpn. / maj. steve young was the media spokesperson for the first few years on this case and was one of the other detectives investigating lisa's disappearance (as many of us are aware).


    re: det. albers:

    1) recipient of the Meritorious Service Award, Jan, 2014
    http://kcmo.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/12/AGENDA-JAN-14-OPEN.pdf


    re: det. shirley-williams:

    1) "also assigned to the FBI Cyber Crime Task Force"
    https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/mow/news2010/duncan_complaint.pdf

    2) promoted to Master Detective and a member of the award-winning crisis negotiations team
    https://www.facebook.com/kcpolice/photos/a.153555204681192.22587.150607851642594/1024822514221119/


    re: maj. young:

    1) promoted to Division Commander at the Central Patrol Station, KCPD
    http://kcmo.gov/police/central-patrol-division/commanders/#.WhtAFHmQwl1


    all officers involved in the CAC internal investigation return to work: "They remain valued members of the department," said Chief Forte.
    http://www.kmbc.com/article/kcpd-of...ernal-investigation-returning-to-work/3692595


    to even begin to insinuate these hardworking and demonstrably respected members of the 2011 KCPD CAC unit who were investigating lisa's case might not be "professional, competent, unbiased investigators who follow the evidence where it leads" (@askfornina) is just disgusting.
     
  11. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    Obviously, I wasn't saying that every single officer involved in Lisa's case was incompetent. I am well aware of which officers have been publicly named as being involved in the case, but thanks for sharing that with others, because I actually forgot to name the search warrant officers in my post. I have a tremendous amount of respect for law enforcement, and I'm positive a lot of caring, competent officers were involved. With that being said, the public has no way of knowing, at this point, if any of the suspended detectives were involved in Lisa's case at any point in time, or what did or did not occur behind the scenes during the course of the investigation - other than what has been reported. The purpose of my post was to make people aware of the fact that serious problems were discovered in the same unit which reportedly investigated Lisa's case, and to provide a summary of what little has been publicly said about the investigation in recent years. I believe that information should be out there. The poor handling of cases and the consequences that have arisen from the officer's gross negligence is disgusting.

    Just to be clear, the suspended officers were reassigned to patrol units. Other detectives and supervisors were moved into the CAC unit.
     
  12. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    I understand exactly what you meant in your original post. There was obviously more than two or three detectives and officers working this case. The link you provided gives us something to ponder about the quality of this investigation in it's early stage.

    Thank you for the well thought out posts. I really appreciate it.
     
  13. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    Below is a more comprehensive list of KCPD's public statements about Lisa's case since April 2012.

    April 4th, 2012:

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/crime/article24727189.html

    http://fox4kc.com/2012/04/04/baby-lisas-disappearance-continues-to-stump-police-six-months-later/

    http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/region...ssing-Lisa-Irwin-Still-looking-6-months-later

    http://www.kctv5.com/story/17332959/search-for-baby-lisa-irwin-grows-cold

    May 21st, 2012:

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/loca...ead-for-her-return-seek-more-from-police.html

    http://www.kctv5.com/story/18574393...massive-opportunities-to-find-baby-lisa-irwin

    September 27th, 2012:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/27/us-usa-crime-missouri-baby-idUSBRE88Q1SK20120927

    September 28th, 2012:

    View attachment 127163

    http://www.kctv5.com/story/19667428/police-baby-lisa-irwins-mom-only-one-who-can-provide-answers

    http://www.kansascity.com/2012/09/29/3839049/a-year-of-questions-finds-few.html

    October 2nd, 2012:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-ba...hes-gifts-year/story?id=17375065#.UYzHG0rSy7X

    September 6th, 2013:

    [video=youtube;lPUKGVqtUBA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPUKGVqtUBA[/video]

    October 1st, 2013:

    http://www.kmbc.com/article/age-progressed-photo-of-lisa-irwin-released/3678499

    http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/01/4523103/tips-dwindle-two-years-after-baby.html

    October 2nd, 2013:

    View attachment 127164

    November 12th, 2013:

    [video=youtube;SDBCOjzgeU4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDBCOjzgeU4[/video]

    October 2nd, 2014:

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article2486184.html

    October 3rd, 2014:

    View attachment 127165

    October 2nd, 2015:

    http://www.kmbc.com/news/kcpd-baby-lisa-disappearance-open-active-case/35624356

    September 30th, 2016:

    http://www.kctv5.com/story/33288936...es-revealed-in-baby-lisa-irwins-disappearance

    October 3rd, 2016:

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article105635281.html

    November 14th, 2016:

    http://people.com/crime/baby-lisa-irwin-2016-missing-update-parents/

     
  14. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    When looking at police statements in this case over time, one can see they haven't made any firm indication about what they believe happened to Lisa or who they think is responsible. No person or scenario has been publicly ruled in or ruled out. Police apparently have not developed enough information to turn over the case to homicide detectives, or at least they hadn't before April 2012. At that point the case was reported to be classified as a missing or abducted child. One of Det. Zink's statements in her interview stuck out to me also..."there’s still a baby missing and we don’t know how.” On the one year anniversary, police said they wanted to interview Deborah one-on-one again in person, but Chief Forte said that they no longer needed to speak with her when he was asked a year later. Did she agree to be formally interviewed again during that time period, or did police decide it was no longer necessary for whatever reason? The most recent specific information from police about the parent's cooperation is from October 2014, when Capt. Tye Grant said concerns about lack of cooperation have dissipated and the lines of communication are open.

    Most recently, Maj. Steve Young said "truly, there isn’t anybody that is or isn’t" a suspect. In the same article, family attorney Cyndy Short said she hopes that investigators have dismissed the idea of Lisa’s parents involvement; “But I don’t know, if you’re in law enforcement, you have to keep all avenues open until you have a clear pathway to go down, which they clearly don’t.” I find it hard to imagine police not having at least some idea of what happened, but based on what they have said, it seems there is probably very little evidence pointing clearly toward the guilty party, or obviously at least not enough evidence to charge that person or persons. I continue to hope for the truth to come out and for police to receive the one valuable tip they need to move forward.

    Of course, there are many reasons why police would or would not choose to share information, and every department, investigation and set of facts are different from each other, but I have a few comparisons between police statements in this case and police statements made in two other cases.

    Ayla Reynolds, 20 months, and Aliyah Lunsford, 3, were both reported missing from their homes by their parents in the later part of 2011. On the surface, the circumstances of both disappearances seem similar - late 2011, parent(s) report a young child missing from their bed. Upon closer inspection, it's clear that, in many ways, these cases are quite different from Lisa's case.

    Ayla was reported missing by her father, Justin DiPietro, on the morning of Dec. 17, 2011. She was staying with him at the time of her disappearance, in his mother’s house. His girlfriend, her child, his sister and her child were also in the home. He said he last saw Ayla when he put her to bed the night before. In December 2011, police publicly stated that they believe foul play has occurred in Ayla's case. Waterville police Chief Joseph Massey said, “The case has evolved from the search for a missing child to a criminal investigation.” Police have determined Ayla did not walk out of the house on her own, and said there was no evidence of an abduction. In May 2012, police said Ayla is unlikely to be found alive. It was later reported that Ayla's blood was found in several places in the home. Ayla's father and the other adults have never been arrested, and Ayla has never been found. Over the years, police have continually stated the adults who were in the home at the time of her disappearance have not been truthful and know more about Ayla’s disappearance than they are sharing.

    KCPD have not publicly ruled out an abduction, or indicated they believe Lisa is likely deceased. Although they heavily investigated the parents in the initial months of the investigation, KCPD have never publicly said they believe Lisa's parents know more about the night Lisa disappeared than they are sharing, as Waterville police have continually said about adults in Ayla's case.

    Aliayah was reported missing by her mother, Lena Lunsford, on Sept. 24, 2011. She told police that Aliayah had been sick and she had checked on her at about 6:30am. She said she went back to check on her at around 9:30am, only to discover she was missing. Lena Lunsford was jailed three times on unrelated charges in the two years following her daughter's disappearance. Six months into the investigation, the FBI held a news conference. At that time, Agent John Hambrick did not say whether or not they believed Aliayah was still alive, did not say what they believed happened to her, and also did not name a suspect. When asked about persons of interest, he said: "It's a small universe." He did say investigators had ruled out an intruder as the cause of her disappearance. "The initial concerns of somebody slipping in and taking Aliayah -- a break-in -- we found no evidence of that." Aliayah has never been found. The FBI remained tight lipped about the investigation for years afterwards. In late 2016, Lena Lunsford was charged with death of a child by a parent by child abuse, murder of a child by parent by failure to provide necessities, and child abuse resulting in injury and concealment of a dead human body. She is awaiting trial.

    I didn't follow Aliayah's case closely, but from what I can tell from reviewing news reports, the FBI was very quiet about the investigation from early on up until Lena's arrest. Police in Lisa's case have been similarly quiet, but again, have not publicly ruled out an abduction, as was the case for Aliayah. For the FBI, 6 months in, to publicly rule out someone coming into the home and taking Aliayah, and having previously ruled out her walking out on her own - that essentially left only one option for what police suspected, which was confirmed when Lena was arrested. Obviously, a big difference between the cases is Lisa's mother has not been arrested for the death of her child. Personally, taking into account what is publicly known at this time, I think it is unlikely Lisa's mother will be arrested on charges related to her disappearance.

    What do you make of what police have and have not publicly stated in Lisa's case? What other comparable cases are there?
     
  15. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    Looks like some of my attachments didn't work in the quoted post. Here are working links to the 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 KCPD press releases.

    http://media.kshb.com/pdf/LisaIrwinStatement.pdf
    http://kcmo.gov/police/media-public...ion-two-years-after-lisa-irwin-disappearance/
    http://kcmo.gov/police/media-public...n-three-years-after-lisa-irwin-disappearance/
    http://kcmo.gov/police/media-public...on-four-years-after-lisa-irwin-disappearance/
     
  16. Moreack

    Moreack Member

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    I thought of Lisa the other day when I was watching ID and Aliza Bush came up. I often wonder what happened and where she is. I hope she is safe.

    MOo.
     
  17. Karinna

    Karinna Well-Known Member

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  18. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    Do some research. A "cadaver" dog alert doesn't mean that a dead human was at that location. There is a whole thread here on Lisa's forum about the dog alert.

    You will find different opinions but my opinion is that LE used the dog alert to get a search warrant for an intensive search of the Irwin home. I have no problem with that. What caused the dog to alert could be anything from old human blood that had been deposited a long time before Lisa disappeared to the dog handler "cueing" the dog causing a false alert.

    Here's a link to the "Cadaver dog" thread.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?152518-Cadaver-dog-hit-on-scent-in-DBs-bedroom
     
  19. Karinna

    Karinna Well-Known Member

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    FYI, i have. From researching of this topic myself, a cadaver dog is trained to specifically detect cadaver and nothing else. Not stale blood, a dirty diaper or anything else of the kind. Otherwise what would be the point of a cadaver dog if it alerts to anything else when searching for a dead body?
     
  20. askfornina

    askfornina New Member

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    This subject has, of course, been highly debated. Another good thread to look at, for anyone interested, is this HRD dog Q&A thread.

    I listened to an episode of The Vanished podcast about Lisa recently. Sidenote, for anyone who is a fan of podcasts, the host of The Vanished does a great job of researching cases and often interviews family members. Anyway, in the episode, she mentioned that she reached out to a man who works with search dogs, who is a member of her podcast discussion group, to ask some questions about the hit. Just thought it'd be interesting to share another opinion on the subject.

    She asked him how long someone would have to be deceased before a dog would be able to pick up on the odor of decomposition. He said there is a debate over that, it could be anywhere from 45 minutes to a couple of hours. She also asked about other things that could possibly have caused this one hit, for example, a bloody nose. He said that dogs could pick up on a small amount of blood, and that it doesn't even take that much. He said you could cut yourself cleaning up a broken lightbulb and a couple drops of blood would be enough. The last question she asked was, with this one hit, should we assume case closed? He said no, but if they had that one hit and then found blood that matched Lisa's DNA, that would be a different story.

    Police described the cadaver dog hit as "one of the many parts of this investigation." Without knowing what all of those "many parts" are, it's hard to tell what the significance of the hit is. Whatever other information police are aware of along with the hit apparently did not lead them to turn her case over to homicide detectives. Clearly, it doesn't look good for the dog to have made a hit in that suspicious location, but a single cadaver dog hit doesn't prove to me with 100% certainty that Lisa Irwin was deceased in that spot. I'm no expert, but from what I can tell, there are other possibilities and explanations. I want to know what other information and evidence exists before I make any hard conclusions. I think the hit is the strongest piece of public information pointing exclusively toward the parents in this case. The public doesn't know everything the police know, and some of what we know may be inaccurate, due to errors in reporting or unreliable sources, but what little we do know seems to point more outside of the home overall, IMO. I have never heard a theory on how Deborah did it that seems plausible to me, taking into account the timeline and facts as we know them.
     

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