Molested with the handle?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Paradox, Apr 29, 2006.

  1. Paradox

    Paradox Former Member

    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Has it been determined that the paint brush handle was inserted into the vagina, or is that just an assumption? How far up was the birefringent material found? Was vaginal fluid detected on the handle? The birefringent material could have been transfered by a finger.
     
  2. Loading...


  3. capps

    capps New Member

    Messages:
    2,970
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The part of the paint brush handle supposedly used to abuse JonBenet was never found. So I guess it would be an assumption. You have a good point,that it could have been transfered to a finger. But using Occam's Razor,I can see how that assumption was made,because of what they found in JonBenet's vagina,and how that part of the paint brush is conveniently missing.
     
  4. Paradox

    Paradox Former Member

    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How do you know the shard came from the missing piece? As I understand it the brush part was in the tray, the middle part was used as the handle, and the end is missing. Is that correct? How was it determined that the shard was from the missing end?

    No one can draw a conclusion about the identity or motive of the perp by imagining the handle being used to violate the body, as it is n not clear that that is what in fact happened.
     
  5. sharpar

    sharpar If dogs dont go to heaven I want to go where they

    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I also think very small pieces were found during autopsy of JB. It was my impression it is a VERY GOOD guess that the missing piece was used to
    violate JB.
     
  6. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

    Messages:
    2,746
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    What's the speculation on whether the brush was tied to the cord and when pulling the brush to tighten the ligature the brush-end and rounded-end snapped, leaving the middle section of the brush on the cord as opposed to breaking the paintbrush then tying the middle section to the cord.

    We know the brush end was later found in Patsy's painting tote and that the rounded end is missing.

    TIA for any input on analyzing this piece of evidence and the part it played.
     
  7. Ames

    Ames New Member

    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Excellent questions Paradox....I was wondering the same things.
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    63

    Paradox,
    No and yes.

    But Coroner Meyer may have determined that the missing piece of the paint brush handle was inserted inside JonBenet, and redacted it from the autopsy report, which only refers to birefringement material, while Steve Thomas refers to it as a splinter and cellulose in his book.

    So its an open question, my money is on the missing piece being inserted into JonBenet.


    .
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    63
    BOESP,
    Highly improbable, shards from the broken painbrush were discovered just outside the wine-cellar door, suggesting it was snapped for use here.

    .
     
  10. IrishMist

    IrishMist You can't control the wind - but you can adjust yo

    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    36
    And, we are assuming that the paintbrush was whole to begin with. My mother is a painter, and the tops (or "rounded-ends") of some of her brushes are broken.

    In my mind, there may not be a missing piece.

    I do wish we had a better description of this material. I've heard splinter, cellulose, powder off of latex gloves, and a fleck of paint off the paintbrush.

    If it was digital penetration, (didn't meyer say the injuries were consistent with that?) it could be just about anything stuck to the finger, couldn't it?
     
  11. Ames

    Ames New Member

    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yep, and especially if the person that was doing the insertion....was wearing a latex glove. A splinter could have very VERY easily been stuck either on the finger or the glove, or partially inside the finger of the glove...(I am talking about just the glove itself, and not going all the way to the perp's finger)...and the perp would have never have known it or felt it. It would have been extremely easy for a splinter to have imbedded itself part way, in one of the fingers of the glove.
     
  12. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

    Messages:
    2,746
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    It hasn't been proved where in the home the cord came from (if it did come from the home) as far as I know but we do know the paint tote was sitting outside the wine-cellar door so how would your scenario discount the ligature being made at the wine-cellar door?
     
  13. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

    Messages:
    2,746
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Mist, I'm leaning toward your thoughts. The piece may have been missing long before the crime was committed. I'm playing the scene through my mind and trying to figure out at what point the brush was broken and why someone would do that (either purposefully or accidentally).

    I understood Meyer to mean JonBenet's injury was consistent with digital penetration. Steve Thomas said a splinter was found and the autopsy uses the terminology birefringent material. While UKGuy has stated he believes Meyer was being cryptic by saying "birefringent" to avoid saying splinter. I don't hold that opinion. Autopsies are not meant to be cryptic. They are designed to be scientifically specific. I'm sure UKGuy will correct me if I've misstated his position. :cool:

    I don't know of anything that proves a portion of the paintbrush handle was used vaginally on JonBenet but maybe someone can come up with something convincing that demonstrates that possibility. I think, based on my reading, that this is theory that has taken on it's own life and become a "fact." If I remember correctly, some foreign animal hair was also found on JonBenet, maybe a couple of hairs on the exterior of her clothes (can't remember for sure right now). There's speculation that hair came from the head of one of the brushes in Patsy's paint tote.
     
  14. Ames

    Ames New Member

    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And I agree....but, according to Patsy...:rolleyes: she had NO broken paintbrushes, and they all were brand new...(from her 98 Interview). See, I don't believe her...or nothing else she says, I find it hard to believe that every single paintbrush that she owned was brand new...or that there wasn't a broken one in the batch. It could have been broken from being stepped on accidently, one of the kids could have broken one or two of them....theres lots a ways that they could have gotten broken.
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    63
    BOESP,
    My scenario does not discount the ligature made at the wine-cellar door, nor does it mandate it.

    Coroner Meyer was being precisely scientifically specific in his Autopsy Report, birefringent material tells you it has the property of polarizing light, which allows identification of the material, particularly since there may be a sample already available e.g. the remaining piece of the paintbrush.

    Coroner Meyer simply never stated in his Autopsy Report from where the birefringent material originated, thereby avoiding either redacting the information, or classifying at as Steve Thomas did in his book.

    Particular items that had been redacted were later published in full after a court hearing.


    .
     
  16. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

    Messages:
    2,746
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Okay. I misunderstood what I thought you were saying:

    "Highly improbable, shards from the broken painbrush were discovered just outside the wine-cellar door, suggesting it was snapped for use here."

    after I asked:

    "What's the speculation on whether the brush was tied to the cord and when pulling the brush to tighten the ligature the brush-end and rounded-end snapped, leaving the middle section of the brush on the cord as opposed to breaking the paintbrush then tying the middle section to the cord."
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    63

    BOESP,

    I assume you asked if the paintbrush may have snapped whilst it was being used as a garrote stick, I suggested that the forensic evidence tells you it was broken just outside the wine-cellar door.


    .
     
  18. Ames

    Ames New Member

    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    BOESP...go to the thread that I just started called..Interesting Insight on "who done it". It is a very interesting article written by a Police Captain. It was orginally posted on FFJ, by LITTLE, who gave me permission to bring it over here. Its the most interesting thing, against Patsy Ramsey..that I have read in a LONG time. And the part below is just the tip of the iceberg...

    "In conclusion without drawing this out into a long story, there is reliable information that can be gathered via the internet. Such resources include resignation letters from Det. Thomas and why he resigned, to the autopsy report on JonBenet. A word of caution. There are many web sites out there that differs from my own opinion and as such extreme caution should be excersized before concluding what you read is a fact. I only base my conclusion on 22 years of law enforcement and the training and available documents at the time I had in the opportunity to analyze documents submitted to me during initial training. All the document examiners that were present at the training facility where I was at in Baton Rouge came to the same conclusion as I, that one Patsy Ramsey was the killer, though she has since died from ovarian cancer."

    Kind regards,
    Capt. C. Bowen
     
  19. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

    Messages:
    8,022
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I recall seeing pictures of PR's paint tote on several sites. One was rather close=up, and NONE of the brushes look brand-new. PR painted regularly, and as I recall, the paint tote was usually kept upstairs, not in the basement, but housekeeper LHP was asked to move it to the basement just a few days before Christmas, to clear an area for the Dec.23 party.
    And didn't the coroner describe the handle of the paintbrush as having splotches of "glistening varnish" on it, (birefringent material???) suggesting it was a used, and not new, brush?
     
  20. Ames

    Ames New Member

    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, Patsy lied alot...I don't believe that the paintbrushes were brand new either, but that's what she said in her interview...and that none were broken.
     
  21. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Which points to the garrote having been fashioned and (and probably also tied on JonBenet) outside the wine cellar door. After everything was done, she was then placed in the wine cellar where she would later be found.
    Re the missing piece of the paintbrush: Theoretically, this piece could have been broken off long ago. Imo a small piece of birefringent material found in the vagina is too little evidence of a paintnbrush end having been jabbed into her. If it was a splinter, why then did'nt coroner meyer call it a wooden splinter? Wood itself is not birefringent. It could have been piece of chipped off varnish from the paintbrush, but wasn't he paintbrush made of unvarnished wood? http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote2.jpg

    jmo
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice