Molested with the handle?

Because Dr.Boef was a staunch friend of the Rs. He moved in the same exclusive social circles. He was going to spin this anyway they wanted him too. JBR was brought in so many times for the same vaginal irritation that if I were him I'd question the mother's intelligence. He may have suspected something else, and because of his social connection to the family, simply looked the other way. Or he may not have made a connectiion with any kind of abuse. I am a bit suspicious of the whole pediatrician thing with this case. After the murder, he did a bit more than give PR something to calm her down- he kept her STONED. It was easier to avoid questioning that way. Why wasn't her own doctor called? There is something in my mind that is very uncomfortable with his actions in this case.

he also colluded with JR to keep her from being questioned by police early on,by saying she was medically in no shape to do so.THAT is not the professional thing to do...and he knew it.IF he had nothing to hide,or wasn't in on it with JR to keep her away from LEHQ,then he would have encouraged her to go down to the police station and at the least, give a statement while events were still fresh in her mind.that would have EMPOWERED her,not made her feel worse ! It would have made her feel she had some control over the 'intruder' and JB's murder,and some hope that they could catch this person.and if she couldn't walk...put her in a wheelchair and get her there !
It's a shame JR didn't do the right thing by her and JB both..I think he would have gotten a lot of sympathy for it,and Patsy would have gotten the correct psych treatment she needed,not just drugged up by a pediatrician.
 
You know, it IS sad. If the Rs had just told the truth. PR would have gotten help. There would have been some kind of plea deal. In DA Hunter's Boulder, NO one did time there, even for murder, and this wouldn't have been murder. It would have been (probably) aggravated manslaughter. Maybe not even that. After all, she could always have played the cancer card- the treatments made her mentally unstable, her medications affected her, etc. It would have been a horrible tragedy, but they'd have gotten past it.
What do I think may have stopped them? I think they may have thought that she was still alive after the head bash. But they knew brain damage was a certainty. I think they really did not know that the head bash would kill her eventually.
So, what they could NOT deal with wasn't just the horrible publicity, the effect on their son, loss of standing in the community. It was the thought of a brain-damaged JBR, their little future Miss America, and all the dreams PR had for her daughter now ruined. Maybe she'd be hooked up to a ventilator for many years. Maybe she'd end up in a wheelchair, silently staring with vacant green eyes no longer subject to her mother's insistance on blue contact lenses. No more dance lessons. No more sequinned costumes. The thought of THAT JBR was so much more horrible than a DEAD JBR. They just couldn't deal with that. So...They covered up the dreadful accident with an even more dreadful thing- a fake murder. And they didn't care who they hurt. Their friends, the people of the city of Boulder, the rest of the country, and the sad people who have been searching for an "intruder" these 10 years.
 
You know, it IS sad. If the Rs had just told the truth. PR would have gotten help. There would have been some kind of plea deal. In DA Hunter's Boulder, NO one did time there, even for murder, and this wouldn't have been murder. It would have been (probably) aggravated manslaughter. Maybe not even that. After all, she could always have played the cancer card- the treatments made her mentally unstable, her medications affected her, etc. It would have been a horrible tragedy, but they'd have gotten past it.
What do I think may have stopped them? I think they may have thought that she was still alive after the head bash. But they knew brain damage was a certainty. I think they really did not know that the head bash would kill her eventually.
So, what they could NOT deal with wasn't just the horrible publicity, the effect on their son, loss of standing in the community. It was the thought of a brain-damaged JBR, their little future Miss America, and all the dreams PR had for her daughter now ruined. Maybe she'd be hooked up to a ventilator for many years. Maybe she'd end up in a wheelchair, silently staring with vacant green eyes no longer subject to her mother's insistance on blue contact lenses. No more dance lessons. No more sequinned costumes. The thought of THAT JBR was so much more horrible than a DEAD JBR. They just couldn't deal with that. So...They covered up the dreadful accident with an even more dreadful thing- a fake murder. And they didn't care who they hurt. Their friends, the people of the city of Boulder, the rest of the country, and the sad people who have been searching for an "intruder" these 10 years.

well-said.I know about doing the right thing from personal experience,I had to call 911 on my bpd relative(before a Dx was made),I said I don't want him arrested,I want him taken to the hospital for a psych evaluation.Thankfully no one got hurt and nothing bad happened before he got Dx.So I feel bad for JR in that respect...that he wasn't able to get help for Patsy before something bad happened.I really believe he probably kicked himself for a long time after JB was killed,for not recognizing the signs and symptoms (I think that's why the Xmas video disappeared,Patsy lost it that morning),and for not getting her some help,although I'm sure he never thought Patsy would ever hurt JB.Still,he could have done that right thing by them both afterwards,but I agree with you,and I think the family and business reputation being at stake was too much for him to give in to and do the right thing.It was just too embarrassing,to say the least,and I'm sure that's putting it lightly.
 
You know, it IS sad. If the Rs had just told the truth. PR would have gotten help. There would have been some kind of plea deal. In DA Hunter's Boulder, NO one did time there, even for murder, and this wouldn't have been murder. It would have been (probably) aggravated manslaughter. Maybe not even that. After all, she could always have played the cancer card- the treatments made her mentally unstable, her medications affected her, etc. It would have been a horrible tragedy, but they'd have gotten past it.
What do I think may have stopped them? I think they may have thought that she was still alive after the head bash. But they knew brain damage was a certainty. I think they really did not know that the head bash would kill her eventually.
So, what they could NOT deal with wasn't just the horrible publicity, the effect on their son, loss of standing in the community. It was the thought of a brain-damaged JBR, their little future Miss America, and all the dreams PR had for her daughter now ruined. Maybe she'd be hooked up to a ventilator for many years. Maybe she'd end up in a wheelchair, silently staring with vacant green eyes no longer subject to her mother's insistance on blue contact lenses. No more dance lessons. No more sequinned costumes. The thought of THAT JBR was so much more horrible than a DEAD JBR. They just couldn't deal with that. So...They covered up the dreadful accident with an even more dreadful thing- a fake murder. And they didn't care who they hurt. Their friends, the people of the city of Boulder, the rest of the country, and the sad people who have been searching for an "intruder" these 10 years.

DeeDee, if there was a motive, I see it pretty much as you've said.

I don't know the Ramseys personally but Patsy came across in their interviews as being "all about me." Those videos focus on how the media and LE framed the Ramseys, how they've been crucified, how they are such good Christians, and on and on. Rarely is JonBenet mentioned and I saw nothing they offered that would help catch the killer if the killer was an Intruder. The videos came across as CYA and publicity stunts.
 
I am thinking about the molestation and the staging to cover it up. I have mixed feelings about the sexual aspect of it. I have NO doubt that there was vaginal trauma, both chronic and acute. But let's suppose PR was regularly using a douche on JBR, whether as "corporal cleansing" (i.e. punishment) or to cleanse the vaginal canal of feces from her frequent soiling. How does this scenario sound to you:
The family returns home from the White's. JBR walks into the house (as per BR's statement). PR is tired and stressed, having had a few glasses of wine, and in no mood for JBR's crankiness, as well as having to complete preparations for a trip she did not want to make, and a very early start the next day. PR was aggravated with JBR already, as she had snubbed the "crown jewel" of her Christmas presents- the MyTwinn doll. And she had refused to wear the outfit PR wanted her to wear that day.
JBR wanted a snack before bed; she was already changed into the long johns. PR didn't really want to give her anything to eat because of the toileting issues and bedwetting, but JBR whines and so she and possibly BR share a pineapple snack. The kids go to bed. PR still has lots of stuff to do. But when she goes to JBR to get her to go to the bathroom, (interesting- that although this WAS her usual rountine, PR claims she did not do it that night- distancing again?) she finds that JBR has already soiled/wet the bed, so an exhausted PR adds the clean up of her daughter and the bed to the list of chores for the night. NOW, she must do laundry, as the soiled sheets would be sitting for the 10-day vacation.
She drags a resistant JBR into her bathroom, where JBR struggles, spilling the container of hairties all over the floor. PR uses the douche again, but this time, because she is tired/stressed/aggravated/tipsy she uses too much force, causing JBR to bleed, and JBR screams in pain. PR reacts by grabbing her around the neck, violently twisting her shirt and slamming her HARD into the sink or tub edge, maybe several times, causing the horrible fracture that causes her to lose consciousness immediately. It happens in a split-second, and her daughter is gone (or so she believes).
Though the altercation with her daughter is noisy, BR and JR, if they heard it, pay no mind because a bathroom commotion has happened before.
The realization that she has accidentaly killed her daughter sets off a panic, and she races to get her husband. He is horrified too, but as the two panicked parents decide what to do next, they do not call 911 because they believe she is already dead anyway. Instead, they decide to make it look like a kidnapping/murder. They can't bring themselves to face whatever consequences there would be to an accidental killing. PR is still in fear of her cancer returning, and BR is still young, they can't bear the thought that she'd face even accidental homicide charges. PR writes the note. They have to make it look like she was killed by the kidnappers. I believe THIS is why the Rs so blatantly violated the terms of the RN- to make it look like she was killed because they disobeyed orders and called police (and half the town).
Although they believe the blow to the head killed her, there is no apparent injury from that, so they need to have a cause of death that is immediately apparent. JBR's neck has by now red marks where PR twisted the shirt, so they decide to make the cause of death appear to be a strangulation. They use either bleach or peroxide to wash away the blood in the bathroom (which still smelled of the chemical when LE arrived). JBR is taken to the basement, to prevent BR from seeing anything if he woke up. JR carries her down the spiral stairs, and some of the fake needles from the garland get in her hair. PR's paint tote is right there, where LHP had put it before the Dec.23 party. They use cord and tape her mouth to make it seem more plausible, not realizing that forensic specialists could tell that the lips they covered never moved, snap the paintbrush in pieces, using one for the garotte. The splinter found in the vagina was put there accidentally when the one who snapped the paintbrush attempted to clean the inside of her vagina to be sure all the blood was wiped away. (some traces were found at autopsy, as well as evidence her thighs had been wiped down). The panties she had been wearing, though pulled down or removed for the douching, were stained with blood that had seeped, so PR replaced them with the identical, though different size, panties that she had bought for a niece and were also right there in the basement, wrapped up to be given. The gifts are unwrapped until the panties are found. They do not think about the size, it is just important that the panties be the same in case anyone at the White's had helped her with toileting, as often occurred, and remembered them.
The garotte had to be pulled tight enough to make it look like she was really strangled, but because she was still alive (though barely- her breathing was so shallow as to be imperceptible) the petechiae and ligature furrow occur, but they unwittingly do not pull it tight enough to cause the expected trauma to the internal structured of the throat. Post-mortem urine release occurs. There is very little urine, as JBR's bedwetting had occurred previously. The long johns were already wet from the original bedwetting. They do nothing, because they do not have another pair of the same panties, and JBR was a well-know bedwetter anyway.
They cannot bear to look at her. They remove the white banket from the basement dryer, which was where PR had placed it, probably Christmas Eve. (LHP reported that she did not come to the R home either Dec.24 OR 25th, but last changed the sheets Dec 23. She also said the sheets on the bed in the crime photos were not the ones she made the bed with, so PR must have washed those sheets and the blanket herself, leaving it in the dryer as she was too busy to put it back on the bed Christmas day.) This makes sense, as there were certainly spare sheets for her bed, but she had only one special white blanket. PR made the bed up herslef with clean sheets, but left the blanket in the dryer- this is also indicated by the look of the bed in crime photos- unmade, but the foot of the bed is neat and there is no blanket seen on the unmade bed.
They wrap JBR in the blanket, leaving her for dead. Adrenaline carries them through this horrible night. As dawn arrives, and the inevitable meeting with the pilot at the airport for the trip, time runs out and the 911 call is made at the last possible moment. Showtime.

Very good Dee Dee. And it sounds right. Happened in a seconds and it is over.
 
You know, it IS sad. If the Rs had just told the truth. PR would have gotten help. There would have been some kind of plea deal. In DA Hunter's Boulder, NO one did time there, even for murder, and this wouldn't have been murder. It would have been (probably) aggravated manslaughter. Maybe not even that. After all, she could always have played the cancer card- the treatments made her mentally unstable, her medications affected her, etc. It would have been a horrible tragedy, but they'd have gotten past it.
What do I think may have stopped them? I think they may have thought that she was still alive after the head bash. But they knew brain damage was a certainty. I think they really did not know that the head bash would kill her eventually.
So, what they could NOT deal with wasn't just the horrible publicity, the effect on their son, loss of standing in the community. It was the thought of a brain-damaged JBR, their little future Miss America, and all the dreams PR had for her daughter now ruined. Maybe she'd be hooked up to a ventilator for many years. Maybe she'd end up in a wheelchair, silently staring with vacant green eyes no longer subject to her mother's insistance on blue contact lenses. No more dance lessons. No more sequinned costumes. The thought of THAT JBR was so much more horrible than a DEAD JBR. They just couldn't deal with that. So...They covered up the dreadful accident with an even more dreadful thing- a fake murder. And they didn't care who they hurt. Their friends, the people of the city of Boulder, the rest of the country, and the sad people who have been searching for an "intruder" these 10 years.

And maybe she might have not been able to speak, but she could lift a finger and point out her mother as the person that did this to her.
 
DeeDee, if there was a motive, I see it pretty much as you've said.

I don't know the Ramseys personally but Patsy came across in their interviews as being "all about me." Those videos focus on how the media and LE framed the Ramseys, how they've been crucified, how they are such good Christians, and on and on. Rarely is JonBenet mentioned and I saw nothing they offered that would help catch the killer if the killer was an Intruder. The videos came across as CYA and publicity stunts.

If I am correct, and Bi Polar was a factor and when you read all about Patsy its like reading a case study of that and a couple other DX codes, I an all but positive that Lost it is an understatement. Youd have to live it to know the explosive nature.
 
If I am correct, and Bi Polar was a factor and when you read all about Patsy its like reading a case study of that and a couple other DX codes, I an all but positive that Lost it is an understatement. Youd have to live it to know the explosive nature.

I agree Colorado. The actual crime is far worse than is ever described. I realize there was no blood - but the whole scenario had to be just horrific for JonBenet; she must have been terrified - because Patsy was basically insane at that time. In order for Patsy to inflict that kind of damage to JB's skull she had to be using all of her force and just throwing her. How could John not have heard it.
 
If I am correct, and Bi Polar was a factor and when you read all about Patsy its like reading a case study of that and a couple other DX codes, I an all but positive that Lost it is an understatement. Youd have to live it to know the explosive nature.

I totally agree,and I really felt for Thomas and the other detectives trying to do the right thing,and yet running into brick walls by not only manipulative Patsy,but also with TR backing her up.When Thomas talked about Patsy getting right in his face to answer the questions (which,btw,he wasn't the only one she did that to),I know how that feels,and the manipulativeness of it (of all of it),it is HELL.And that is putting it lightly !!!!
You have not seen manipulative until you have gone through it with a mentally unstable person.It is UNREAL.And I think JR is lucky that Patsy didn't turn on him and try to blame him...maybe he had a feeling she might,and thus the separate lawyers.If not for her needing his money to keep her free from prison,she might have very well turned on him.NOT that it would have worked,but unstable ppl don't think clearly and will try anything to get their way and what they want.Thomas and the other detectives certainly have my sympathy on having had to deal with her.
 
You folks haven't lost a step since I've been away.

Yeah, if John were innocent totally, why help Patsy? I get asked that a lot. Well, think about it: he'd lost Beth, he'd just lost JB. It's customary to blame yourself. Maybe if I hadn't been so busy, I would have seen in before it's too late. So he could have prevented it but didn't, and if he turned Patsy in, she'd most likely die in prison, so, in a sense, he would have killed her too, and robbed his son of his mother. He claims to be a religious man. Maybe sticking by her was his penance. Just spitballing.
 
I can totally see JR covering for his wife. For all the reasons you mention. IF he had been molesting his daughter- that's the biggest reason of all- but even if he hadn't, I think he'd still cover up her death.
The vaginal trauma and the fact that the autopsy DID show evidence of blood wiped from her thighs, prove SOMETHING had caused injuries to her vagina. That night is definite (blood wiped from the thighs, blood on the forchette and other areas in the vagina). Previous times- the bruising and erosion of the hymen. Whether this was all or in part caused by douching, sexual abuse, or both is something we don't know. But SOMETHING was done to hurt JBR enough to bleed (and scream). And it wasn't done to a corpse in order to hide the abuse. It was done to her when she was ALIVE, though it isn't known if she was conscious or not. (I hope NOT).
 
You folks haven't lost a step since I've been away.

Yeah, if John were innocent totally, why help Patsy? I get asked that a lot. Well, think about it: he'd lost Beth, he'd just lost JB. It's customary to blame yourself. Maybe if I hadn't been so busy, I would have seen in before it's too late. So he could have prevented it but didn't, and if he turned Patsy in, she'd most likely die in prison, so, in a sense, he would have killed her too, and robbed his son of his mother. He claims to be a religious man. Maybe sticking by her was his penance. Just spitballing.

Hi SuperDave,

Nice to hear from you again.
 
I can't beleieve she even had a painting studio put in,in their Atlanta home.Looks like she would have been too upset to ever paint again.

Patsy created an art studio when she moved into her Atlanta home. She placed wallpaper with pineapple designs in the kitchen. Paintbrushes and pineapples are two key elements associated with the death of her daughter when a garrote made from a paintbrush strangled her daughter and her daughter's last meal was one of pineapple.

Patsy was a plagiarist, too. Remember this painting? July, 2006

20060718_023649_cd18carman1_GALLERY.jpg


"When the image of Ramsey's artwork appeared in The Post, a reader recognized it as strikingly similar to one called "Pals" from the collection of artist Betty Morris Hamilton of Guntersville, Ala.

Side by side, the resemblance is unmistakable. Ramsey's colors, though more intense, are much the same as those in Hamilton's original. The position of the arms, the streaks in the hair, the shades on the sand all look like Hamilton's work."

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4064157
 
Patsy created an art studio when she moved into her Atlanta home. She placed wallpaper with pineapple designs in the kitchen. Paintbrushes and pineapples are two key elements associated with the death of her daughter when a garrote made from a paintbrush strangled her daughter and her daughter's last meal was one of pineapple.

Patsy was a plagiarist, too. Remember this painting? July, 2006

20060718_023649_cd18carman1_GALLERY.jpg


"When the image of Ramsey's artwork appeared in The Post, a reader recognized it as strikingly similar to one called "Pals" from the collection of artist Betty Morris Hamilton of Guntersville, Ala.

Side by side, the resemblance is unmistakable. Ramsey's colors, though more intense, are much the same as those in Hamilton's original. The position of the arms, the streaks in the hair, the shades on the sand all look like Hamilton's work."

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4064157

Nice pull.

Makes you wonder what other artistic productions were the result of ripping off existing material. Say..maybe a three page ransom note?
 
Patsy created an art studio when she moved into her Atlanta home. She placed wallpaper with pineapple designs in the kitchen. Paintbrushes and pineapples are two key elements associated with the death of her daughter when a garrote made from a paintbrush strangled her daughter and her daughter's last meal was one of pineapple.

BBM and respectfully snipped---------

:eek: Of all the wallpaper prints available, she used one with pineapple designs????

I can understand that Patsy's artistic desire for painting might have been impossible for her to suppress and could have been pleasurable during her battle for cancer, yet, something seems so very off about this. She had no problem using paintbrushes again after knowing how a paintbrush played into her daughter's murder? As a victim of that type of crime, I'm not sure I could have EVER looked at an artist's paintbrush again, let alone put one in my hands.

Previously skeptical about Patsy's involvement, I have to backtrack and give more consideration to the possibility of grave personality disorder(s) within Patsy.
 
I can't imagine decorating my house with something that was a large part of the investigation into the death of my child. At least not if I were innocent.
 

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