Mommie Dearest?

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Pink Panther

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ICA stayed were she was able to ensure the her child was taken care off.

Sorry, I've known folks to leave a 'nice' situation, just to prove a point. And the kids were the ones who paid the price.

Do remember, CA allowed the situation. Most likely she got alot of ride out of talking about her daughter and her grand daughter.
I beg to differ. I think that KC stayed where she was able to ensure that SHE was taken care of. And for two and a half years, her daughter was probably her "get in free" card. Time was up. Momma bear was getting a tad pizzd at the situation and was finally asking for some responsibility. Caylee was finally starting to talk and all hell broke loose.

moo
 

Spangle

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I don't believe it for a second. And I also don't believe that abuse is necessarily pummeling your child with a fist. This child probably spent hours and hours alone at home playing by herself, largely unsupervised while her mother texted, phoned, facebooked and myspaced. Geez. I wish the SA would lay the facts down a bit now...KC spent hours and hours and hours of each and every day doing these things, while Caylee was still alive! She made a full-time job of it!

moo

Sad to say, but the new norm, is raising the children in front of the TV. Educational TV. As pointed out, Caylee could count to 30 in Spanish.

Back in the day, children were put in play pens or tied to the clothes line, while mothers scrubbed clothes, scubbed floors, etc.

Mothers no longer have to scrub clothes or hang them out on the clothes lines, etc. Work in the fields, etc. Like wise, children can now have educational toys and watch educational TV.

As I said before, finger point child abuse isn't always a 'win' situation. Just because she wasn't down on her knees, giving the child her full attention, all the time, doesn't mean she wasn't supervised.
 

capricorn

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From all I've observed, Caylee was a very well behaved little girl. Not needing much disciplining.

I can state from having raised a son that he definitely went through the terrible twos, and was unpleasant to be around to my childless friends.

Casey was very lucky to have such a happy little girl. Maybe that was because she had so much attention from adults all her life, including Casey's friends who would dote on such a cute child.

Most kids resist bedtime, but especially when they're in a foreign environment. It sounds like that was the only time Caylee really annoyed Casey.
 

ColdDayIn

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I beg to differ. I think that KC stayed where she was able to ensure that SHE was taken care of. And for two and a half years, her daughter was probably her "get in free" card. Time was up. Momma bear was getting a tad pizzd at the situation and was finally asking for some responsibility. Caylee was finally starting to talk and all hell broke loose.

moo

This is exactly along the lines I have been thinking. As I stated before, I would not be surprised if there was some awful mental abuse going on. I still lean more towards thinking that there had to be some abuse on ICA's part prior to the murder, but after reading Spangles post, I could also see how a person could snap and had never abused their child before. I still think though, with everything I have read about ICA, and I have followed this from the beginning (partly because I was about the same age as ICA and my oldest child the same age as Caylee when it happened), I believe that something was definitely going on before the murder.
 

ColdDayIn

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Sad to say, but the new norm, is raising the children in front of the TV. Educational TV. As pointed out, Caylee could count to 30 in Spanish.

Back in the day, children were put in play pens or tied to the clothes line, while mothers scrubbed clothes, scubbed floors, etc.

Mothers no longer have to scrub clothes or hang them out on the clothes lines, etc. Work in the fields, etc. Like wise, children can now have educational toys and watch educational TV.

As I said before, finger point child abuse isn't always a 'win' situation. Just because she wasn't down on her knees, giving the child her full attention, all the time, doesn't mean she wasn't supervised.

I wouldn't term it the new "norm". Yeah, some parents love to use cable tv as a babysitter, but I definitely do not think the majority of parents do. And Caylee was still at such a young age, that she would require full attention. Especially considering how bright everyone has said she was. Smarter children are harder to keep occupied and are more inquisitive and more likely to get into things.
 

BlOnDe_GuRrL

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I know, right..
Nobody is going to be abusive and neglectful in front of other people.. Especially people she's trying to convince that she lives the bella vita.

It's easy to put on a good front around your friends. I'm so glad Maria Kissh(??) or whatever her name is, told about Caylee opening the door, being on the balcony and trying to put her shoes on while mommy was playing "house" with Tony.
 

Spangle

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I beg to differ. I think that KC stayed where she was able to ensure that SHE was taken care of. And for two and a half years, her daughter was probably her "get in free" card. Time was up. Momma bear was getting a tad pizzd at the situation and was finally asking for some responsibility. Caylee was finally starting to talk and all hell broke loose.

moo

Of course she stayed because it was working out for her. Duh!

Young girls get with ole men, cause it works out for them. <wink>

If your going to give a person a free ride, why get made if they take them up on it.

Lots of men talk about their wives just getting a free ride.

What we don't know is... What was the original agreement?? WE have heard rumors that ICA didn't want to keep the baby. That CA talked her into it. What did CA promise ICA if she kept the baby???

None of this excuses or changes anything. It doesn't make ICA innocent and someone else guilty.
 

Chablis

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This is what seals it for me. There is no way three years go by and a good mother doesn't bond with her child at all. Cindy was so concerned about this, she wanted Casey and Caylee to go off together and bond. That is not a good mother. That is a spoiled child who made a mistake, was never made to be responsible for it, and who acted more like an annoyed babysitter or older sister stuck with looking after a younger sister, not a mother.

I don't think there was a whole lot of physical abuse because Cindy wouldn't stand for that. She's a nurse, and she would know how injuries came to be. She would get instant custody of Caylee if Casey was really physically abusing her. I do think there was a lot of mental abuse and neglect, though. Let me tell you, mental abuse and neglect can't be physically seen, but can be just as bad or worse than physical abuse. Just because Caylee looked healthy and was dressed and fed doesn't mean Casey wasn't playing serious mental games with her and then ignoring her when she got annoyed and had enough of Caylee. I don't think Casey was emotionally there for Caylee, and that is not a good mother.

Bottom line, Casey was NOT a good mother. Not in any sense of the word, and I don't even think she ever loved Caylee. She is a sociopath and the only person she can possibly love is herself. Repeating what I started with, good mothers don't need to go bond with their kids at age THREE. They should be doing that from the time the child is BORN! Or at least, bonding shouldn't have been a concern three years AFTER Caylee was born. Casey should have already bonded with Caylee if she truly was a good mother.

Caylee was just a tool to get Casey what she wanted, attention on herself. And when more attention was put on Caylee than her, Caylee had to go. Casey couldn't stand someone else getting more attention than her, especially more attention from GA and CA. Casey was the only princess, and she made sure it stayed that way, at least until Baez's opening statements. I wonder if she thought her parents would look past it and still worship her. How wrong she was!

Caseys role as a mother was not as defined as it would be if she truly raised this child alone, and that probably had to be very frustrating.
 

BigFatMommyDog

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I never even considered that but you are 100% right. I know my mother AND grandmother both would DIE if I had ever done anything like that with my children...it's so taboo for their generation. Also, the women from that generation, will not necessarily think GA 'hitting' ICA is abuse because like some previous posters have pointed out on various threads...it was not uncommon for their generation to be hit/spanked with spoons, etc.

I beg to differ. I think that KC stayed where she was able to ensure that SHE was taken care of. And for two and a half years, her daughter was probably her "get in free" card. Time was up. Momma bear was getting a tad pizzd at the situation and was finally asking for some responsibility. Caylee was finally starting to talk and all hell broke loose.

moo

I think what happened was a kind of perfect storm She had been allowed a certain latitude in activities by her parents so as not to deprive her of her youth. I think ICA figured out purdy dam quick that she could work that to her advantage, and when her parents finally caught wind of her shenanigans, they roped her in HARD - she should have been mature enough to make sense of it, but being as she was both cosseted by her parents initially and as "delayed" as she was maturity wise, and, to quote your post above and my previous point about "group think" among her friends, she had gone "all in" and was living in a perpetual state where no one ever changed, matured, achieved, or got older. I don't think she got that.

At first I think she believed she could parlay her "personality" and later her sexuality (from which I think she found great attention and power after the effects of her personality waned) into a lifestyle. I don't think she ever reckoned that folks would eventually grow up, move on with their lives and "leave her." But it was starting to become ineffective - fewer and fewer people believed her.

She had no venue in which to perform (she never went to college, pulled an all nighter for a final - or worked a job for that matter - look at the parade of folks today - all familiar from different times in her life). Suddenly all the fantasy she had fabricated - that had worked on the "noobs" (newbies - when she was new to them) wasn't working anymore and they weren't going away, but they were moving on. She was being found out - so she was jettisoning everything she could (and everything she had power to make "go away") to try to fit into the next phase - but she had no real clue how to do that - just what she'd seen on TV, MySpace, and whatever little fantasies she'd built during those long hours "pretending."

She'd have flown the coop of Orlando, but dang, she didn't have the tools - and no idea how to acquire them. Oh yeah - and was waiting on the next Knight, the next noob to believe her and take her away.
 

Spangle

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I wouldn't term it the new "norm". Yeah, some parents love to use cable tv as a babysitter, but I definitely do not think the majority of parents do. And Caylee was still at such a young age, that she would require full attention. Especially considering how bright everyone has said she was. Smarter children are harder to keep occupied and are more inquisitive and more likely to get into things.

I would call it that. It's being used more and more in educational situations. Mostly because they are making cartoons focusing on babys and tots that teach. But the kids don't realize they are learning. Like teaching kids to count things, by playing with them.

I"ve seen it used in day cares and I've seen it in schools. For older kids, it's documentary, etc.

I've seen kids so young, they set in punkin sets, watching a kiddy show.

And there seems to be a misconception that if a person is texting, they wouldn't be aware of what is going on around them. No one is saying that ICA was in some other room texting. LOL! I can't tell you how many times today I seen folks texting, when they should have been doing something else.
 

gitana1

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I think KC was "on" when she was with her friends, she was certainly not the character Caylee got when they were alone-- KC is a huge faker almost all the time. Incredible.

eta: I was going to post the "wire hangar" scene from Mommy Dearest, but toooooo spooky!

I kind of agree. I don't think that casey physically abused Caylee or yelled too much but I think she exhibited a ghastly indifference towards a precious little girl who just wanted love from mommy.

I think casey saw Caylee as an object to serve her needs - her need to be seen as a good mom or her need to be seen as a caretaker, or her reason for needing money, or a doll to dress up, etc.

But casey didn't really love Caylee. And unless people were wacthing her "perform" her role of a good mama, I think Caylee's basic needs were met and that was about it.

The eerie videos of Caylee where she is trying so hard and so pathetically to get a response from her mommy, to get some kind of interaction, some kind of expression, anything from her mom, but saw nothing but a cold, expressionless person staring at her steadfastly with a camera in her hand, those videos say it all. They are haunting.

To watch Caylee's face as she tries in vain to communicate with her mother, turn to confusion and then concern and then to watch that little face screw up in anguish, it breaks my heart. Yes, she was a Mommie Dearest.

I remember watching a program about how infants begin to understand facial expressions and what they mean. They showed this mom with her seven month old infant who was sitting in a high chair. The mom was instructed to simply stare at her baby and to make no facial expressions of any kind.

At first, the baby smiled and babbled and reached her little arms up to her mom. She kept trying to flirt to charm her mom in order to get a response, but none came. The baby began to look away and to make little sounds of discontent. She kept stealing looks at her mommy to see if there was a change in expression. None ever came.

Finally, the child began to show visible signs of distress and eventually began to cry and then to howl.

It reminds me so much of Caylee in those eerie, silent video tapes. Except before Caylee gets upset or too upset, the tapes cuts off:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCYd9hKh4Dw&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDoeJm74dd4[/ame]

Now here is Lillian Glass' blog about one of those videos. I think Ms. Glass goes too far in much of what she says about body language in general - she takes too many liberties and I read her blog for entertainment only, but she does make some interesting points here and her still shots are worth looking at:

http://drlillianglassbodylanguagebl...ct-by-casey-as-casey-speaks-the-words-i-kill/

Poor Caylee:(
 

LCoastMom

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Thank you! :D Because of Caylee, I now know what a sociopath is and I can do my best to protect her. If it weren't for Caylee I don't know what would have happened, because I probably would have tried to get them together more often. Now we just wait until he rears his ugly head again and then deal with it. I don't talk badly about him in front of her. But I am sure that she will get it eventually on her own. I wish that someone had known about Casey in time to save Caylee.

Someone did...her parents. They were just too deep into maintaining appearances (or in the case of GA, the status quo) to do what needed to be done. I do not hold them responsible for Caylee's death but I do believe they were complacent in her neglect.

I'm sorry for what the sociopath (has and) is putting you and your daughter through - we could compare notes...my ex is a narcissist.


Jose said that ICA breast fed, I thought I had seen pictures of bottle feeding, I may be wrong. Anyone?

I would swear that ICA's friend who used to babysit Caylee, once said ICA breast fed but I was never able to find the clip to back this statement up.

Bill Sheaffer commented today that a few of the Jurors are women in their 50's and 60's and as he said they are from a completely different generational mindset when it comes to a young mother taking her child to late night parties, different beds, sharing beds with casual boyfriends, and he expects that will "not elevate ICA in their opinion of her mothering". They will not think she was the good mother that JB would have them think...

I'm at the lower end of the age group - when I was 18 my boyfriend lived in a house with 3 other guys. One afternoon we were there and a roommate showed up with his very pregnant (married) girlfriend and her toddler daughter. They disappeared into his room, an hour later they left - quite flushed. I was appalled then and would still be today. Wrong is wrong, no matter how young / old you are.

I did love that Jennifer Kissh got to say her piece - here a virtual stranger to the situation was able to see it for what it was - she described their relationship as “beneficial for Tony.” And was smart enough not to want to leave Caylee alone.
 

LCoastMom

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I kind of agree. I don't think that casey physically abused Caylee or yelled too much but I think she exhibited a ghastly indifference towards a precious little girl who just wanted love from mommy.

I think casey saw Caylee as an object to serve her needs - her need to be seen as a good mom or her need to be seen as a caretaker, or her reason for needing money, or a doll to dress up, etc.

But casey didn't really love Caylee. And unless people were wacthing her "perform" her role of a good mama, I think Caylee's basic needs were met and that was about it.

The eerie videos of Caylee where she is trying so hard and so pathetically to get a response from her mommy, to get some kind of interaction, some kind of expression, anything from her mom, but saw nothing but a cold, expressionless person staring at her steadfastly with a camera in her hand, those videos say it all. They are haunting.

To watch Caylee's face as she tries in vain to communicate with her mother, turn to confusion and then concern and then to watch that little face screw up in anguish, it breaks my heart. Yes, she was a Mommie Dearest.

I remember watching a program about how infants begin to understand facial expressions and what they mean. They showed this mom with her seven month old infant who was sitting in a high chair. The mom was instructed to simply stare at her baby and to make no facial expressions of any kind.

At first, the baby smiled and babbled and reached her little arms up to her mom. She kept trying to flirt to charm her mom in order to get a response, but none came. The baby began to look away and to make little sounds of discontent. She kept stealing looks at her mommy to see if there was a change in expression. None ever came.

Finally, the child began to show visible signs of distress and eventually began to cry and then to howl.

It reminds me so much of Caylee in those eerie, silent video tapes. Except before Caylee gets upset or too upset, the tapes cuts off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCYd9hKh4Dw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDoeJm74dd4

Now here is Lillian Glass' blog about one of those videos. I think Ms. Glass goes too far in much of what she says about body language in general - she takes too many liberties and I read her blog for entertainment only, but she does make some interesting points here and her still shots are worth looking at:

http://drlillianglassbodylanguagebl...ct-by-casey-as-casey-speaks-the-words-i-kill/

Poor Caylee:(

Those videos made me think of a specimen under a microscope. ICA was studying Caylee through the camera the way a scientist would a germ or a bug. Poor Caylee. :(
 

hornswoggled

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Well. It has been established in a Court of Law by Casey's own attorney that she can put on an excellent and believable act and fool everybody around her.

She has done exactly that and I do wonder if he has managed to exclude himself from the list of people fooled.

Frankly, that scares the daylights out of me and it should give all her friends reason to pause..................
 

mikeysmommom

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Caylee loved her mother. There is not one indication whatsoever she was mean to Caylee in private. No one has said anything negative about her relationship with her daughter, thankfully.

No one has to! ICA killed Caylee in private that does not mean because it was not seen it did not happen.She allowed men she only knew weeks to share a bed with her daughter in it.TL said she was a good mom, but that young woman on the stand said Caylee answered the door to a stranger and also went out on a balcony while ICA and TL were in a bedroom.She left a child unattended to give him sex,he might think she is a good mom but I sure as h3ll don't.Even abused children love their abuser's when it is their mother.Maybe that is why she clung to her mom in front of friends,cause it might have been the only time her mom acted like a mom.

ETA Jennifer Kissh
 

shgrbkr

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Personally I haven't been all that surprised at the glowing reports. I imagine Caylee was an easy child to look after. I haven't come across anything that indicates she was anything but well-behaved, perceptive and smart, probably above average. Of course, she was nearly 3 years old and any 3 year old is going to have their moments, but in general I bet Caylee was the kind of kid anybody could look after and she wouldn't get into too much mischief. The one day when KC trotted back to TL bedroom and left Caylee out in the apartment and Caylee went onto the balcony does show us that Caylee certainly needed supervision at all times, but more importantly it shows us that when KC wanted something, then she took care of herself first and foremost with no regard for anyone else--including little Caylee.
 

mikeysmommom

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Caseys role as a mother was not as defined as it would be if she truly raised this child alone, and that probably had to be very frustrating.

If it was frustrating for ICA she should have used those years getting an education and a job.Heck she had a child she could have gotten a section 8 apartment and lived off the system.ICA is a sponge she used Caylee as tool to stay living and sponging so she could present a false image to her friends who where going places with their lives.She could have her degree and a great job and a beautiful daughter and be living the beautiful life,she literally threw it away like trash.
 

mikeysmommom

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Bill Sheaffer commented today that a few of the Jurors are women in their 50's and 60's and as he said they are from a completely different generational mindset when it comes to a young mother taking her child to late night parties, different beds, sharing beds with casual boyfriends, and he expects that will "not elevate ICA in their opinion of her mothering". They will not think she was the good mother that JB would have them think...

Is he implying that woman under 50 would feel this lifestyle is appropriate for a small child?:waitasec:
 

Beatrice

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I doubt that ICA was a wonderful mother to Caylee Marie when nobody else was around to observe what went on. These guys that JB is questioning were not in the presence of Caylee Marie often enough to make that judgement. The fact that Caylee Marie was well-fed and had clean clothing does not prove ICA was a good caring mother, since CA and GA provided all those necessities for Caylee Marie. I don't want to imagine what kind of unwitnessed treatment ICA provided to "the little snothead".

This was my experience growing up....As long as we all looked cute & well behaved all was well to the world....Behind closed doors was another story.

I find Casey's silent videos of Caylee unnerving. She seems to have had a huge resentment about the amount of attention precious Caylee received.
 
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