More People to be Charged?

[Turbododger]

CBC Report - Stephanie Matteis - More people to be Charged?
This video discusses more people being charged in this case.

On other charges being laid:

(This is verbatim from the interviewer, CBC's Stephaine Matteis and LE)

Stephanie: "Normally this would be considered a huge break in a 1st degree murder investigation, but even identifying the remains of the missing 8 year old girl, hasn't satsified police. This case is not over, they say."

Stephanie asks unidentified LE: "Is anyone else under investigation, or will there be any other charges laid?"

LE: "I am not going to speak to that at all, I am not going to rule ANY possibility out."

Comment by Me: Okay, this is a total switch from their stance that they have the right 2 people and don't anticipate anybody else being charged. WTH?

I know Rodney had said in his presser at Victoria Park a comment regarding other people.

Well, Stephanie Matteis catches him in this video saying "ANYBODY that is responsible for what has happened, make sure they get their dues".

Stephanie Matteis also quotes a source as saying the "Rafferty and his former lawyer didn't get along."

Here is the link for the video, it is the one from CBC titled "Victoria Stafford's remains identified".

[ame="http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/5582100/14654294"]Victoria Stafford's remains identified on Yahoo! Video[/ame]​

__________________

 

[nurse_sleuth]

CBC Report - Stephanie Matteis - More people to be Charged?
This video discusses more people being charged in this case.

On other charges being laid:

(This is verbatim from the interviewer, CBC's Stephaine Matteis and LE)

Stephanie: "Normally this would be considered a huge break in a 1st degree murder investigation, but even identifying the remains of the missing 8 year old girl, hasn't satsified police. This case is not over, they say."

Stephanie asks unidentified LE: "Is anyone else under investigation, or will there be any other charges laid?"

LE: "I am not going to speak to that at all, I am not going to rule ANY possibility out."

Comment by Me: Okay, this is a total switch from their stance that they have the right 2 people and don't anticipate anybody else being charged. WTH?

I know Rodney had said in his presser at Victoria Park a comment regarding other people.

Well, Stephanie Matteis catches him in this video saying "ANYBODY that is responsible for what has happened, make sure they get their dues".

Stephanie Matteis also quotes a source as saying the "Rafferty and his former lawyer didn't get along."

Here is the link for the video, it is the one from CBC titled "Victoria Stafford's remains identified".

Victoria Stafford\'s remains identified on Yahoo! Video[/COLO"]Victoria Stafford's remains identified on Yahoo! Video

Victoria Stafford's remains identified on Yahoo! Video​

__________________

Although I believe in the guilt of those arrested, I dont however believe that this situation is so cut and dry. There are far too many details and behaviours by certain people closely linked to this case that can not be ignored. I try not to judge TM for her reactions to this case, realizing that drug use can often blunt emotions, which is often the desired effect for most addicts... however, coming from a nursing background, I also know that shock and severe emotional trauma that is an isolated event like the murder of a child, would cause certain emotional reactions despite drug use in that person.
I have to admit, when I attended the prayer vigil in Victoria Park I was taken back by the mood of TM. She was very social, chatting with people, laughing and joking around, and was even allowing people who she didnt know, to come up and take thier pictures with her like she was a celebrity or something. It was so odd, and certainly not the reactions or actions of a woman whose daughter is missing. On the flip side of that was RS, who I felt had very appropriate reactions that day. He arrived, went to TM and JG, gave TM a hug, and shook JG's hand ( I might add this was only days after thier public arguement and almost physical altercation). He was solemn, and was surrounded by a much different, and in my opinon more supportive group of people who shared his grief and concern for this situation.
Then came the memorial service... I dont know about anyone else, but I could not have gotten up on that stage, no matter how many people were in the room, and talked for a fair amount of time about the birth of my daughter (who is still missing, but remains werent found yet), about the first time I held her, and recount so many memories, without breaking down. I cant understand that at all. I truly feel that any mother, when speaking of the day she had this baby, who she just learned has been murdered, would have lost all composure. I personally find this very strange, and no matter how I look at it, it doesnt sit well with me. Again, RS, and DS had the normal reactions and speehes that would be expected in a situation like this. They were heartfelt, and focused on missing Tori.

In my opinion, and clearly in that of the police, there is something that does not make sense, and it would seem there is some level of at least knowledge on the part of JG and TM in this case. It is my understanding that TM failed a part of the lie detector test when asked if she had any prior knowledge that TS would be taken that day. Those tests are highly accurate, and the fact she stormed out of it, as opposed to staying and retaking it in order to proove her innocence makes me question this even further.

Of course now that they have gone and gotten engaged, and Ive even heard a rumour they are married with the intention of having a formal wedding in the fall, add that to seeing some of the posts on fb from her, where she is telling ppl to go to the market to get jams because the market is so wonderful, really adds to my suspicons, and definitely to my feelings that TMs reactions are far less than normal, and shouldnt be overlooked. Who can think about getting married if you just lost a child to murder?

So I guess to answer the question do I feel more people are to be charged, yes I do! With all these key players however, the question of who, is open for debate I suppose.

 

[Flowercb]

If Tori was not sexually assaulted, then more questions will be raised. Of course we are not privy to that info. What was the motive then?

 

[Sillybilly]

I know Rodney had said in his presser at Victoria Park a comment regarding other people.

LFP Mogulus July presser titled "Tori Stafford remains", starting at approx. seekpoint 10:45, in response to a reporter's question (which I cannot hear), RS says (transcribed to the best of my ability):

"...The investigation is still going; there is a possibility that other individuals could be involved, but we don't know that and I'm not going to speculate. We'll wait and see what comes up."

 

[scotslass]

this whole case is so bizarre that i really wouldn't rule out more arrests or charges, My real question is will they be brought forth as part of this case or separately. I think there is so much more to this LE did not spend so much time and effort looking into TM & JG for nothing (it has been 4 mnths) and we know from TM's family that they were still investigating/questioning people in regards to them long after the arrests.

I find most of what TM says and/ or does to be bizarre. However i have far more hairs on my neck stand up when JG is in the picture. I find his reactions strange. I also find his alibi of taking a shower on the day of the abduction to be out there.. i mean how long can one shower?? He was fairly present in the beginning then we didn't hear from him (although we know he was in court for other matters (snowblower) during this time). His previous rap sheet is concerning and the fact that Jm pinned JG as always being over at Carol's it did not sound like it was a recent thing as he has since claimed. I found the interview he gave where he took the opportunity to slam LE and how they handled thing odd as well I would at this time be more focused on my child. The fact they put out there to the media that LE tagged him as a pedo to Daryn etc was something else i found incredible why mention that just focus on Tori and finding out what has happened and where she is.

I'm going to put myself out here for a moment as it is something that has bothered me since the memorial. Yes TM was odd as per usual but I was really bothered and heartbroken during this memorial when poor Daryn spoke. I still cry when i recall it. It broke my heart that even this far into this he described how he let his sister down by not walking her home that day. The reason this bothered me was because I'm a mom and i know i would have read over my sons speech before the day and trust me long before this i would have been talking to him day and night to forget that he could have walked Tori home that day and that he was in no way responsible as I as the mother and responsible adult should have been the one to walk her home. That no blame or regrets should ever weigh on his shoulders, heart or mind regarding this, sometimes bad things just happen.

I know it is probably just me, but i just wanted to cuddle that kid so hard and tell him to never say those things, he never let her down ever and it was his job to be her brother not her protector. I just felt when TM took over for him it was almost see i told you he was supposed to bring her home but didn't. I know a lot of my response is emotional but i just can't shake those thoughts.

 

[tambini]

this whole case is so bizarre that i really wouldn't rule out more arrests or charges, My real question is will they be brought forth as part of this case or separately. I think there is so much more to this LE did not spend so much time and effort looking into TM & JG for nothing (it has been 4 mnths) and we know from TM's family that they were still investigating/questioning people in regards to them long after the arrests.

I find most of what TM says and/ or does to be bizarre. However i have far more hairs on my neck stand up when JG is in the picture. I find his reactions strange. I also find his alibi of taking a shower on the day of the abduction to be out there.. i mean how long can one shower?? He was fairly present in the beginning then we didn't hear from him (although we know he was in court for other matters (snowblower) during this time). His previous rap sheet is concerning and the fact that Jm pinned JG as always being over at Carol's it did not sound like it was a recent thing as he has since claimed. I found the interview he gave where he took the opportunity to slam LE and how they handled thing odd as well I would at this time be more focused on my child. The fact they put out there to the media that LE tagged him as a pedo to Daryn etc was something else i found incredible why mention that just focus on Tori and finding out what has happened and where she is.

I'm going to put myself out here for a moment as it is something that has bothered me since the memorial. Yes TM was odd as per usual but I was really bothered and heartbroken during this memorial when poor Daryn spoke. I still cry when i recall it. It broke my heart that even this far into this he described how he let his sister down by not walking her home that day. The reason this bothered me was because I'm a mom and i know i would have read over my sons speech before the day and trust me long before this i would have been talking to him day and night to forget that he could have walked Tori home that day and that he was in no way responsible as I as the mother and responsible adult should have been the one to walk her home. That no blame or regrets should ever weigh on his shoulders, heart or mind regarding this, sometimes bad things just happen.

I know it is probably just me, but i just wanted to cuddle that kid so hard and tell him to never say those things, he never let her down ever and it was his job to be her brother not her protector. I just felt when TM took over for him it was almost see i told you he was supposed to bring her home but didn't. I know a lot of my response is emotional but i just can't shake those thoughts.

Oh scotslass....I totally understand how your feeling here. You just put into words how I too felt. Let's just hope with the proper counseling that D get beyond feeling any way responsible. Makes me sad to even think about what he may be feeling.

 

[Dee10]

If Tori was not sexually assaulted, then more questions will be raised. Of course we are not privy to that info. What was the motive then?

Triple thanks, I believe this case is blown wide open if there is NO sexual assault as this is what the LE originally gave as the reason! It also wipes out g/f's suggestions of perversion and perhaps even if TLM may have told this. I know police go by evidence, but juries like motive to make sense of things, especially if there is circumstantial evidence. And cops & judges do too, what does Judge Judy say, "if it doesn't make sense, it's a lie". If there is no sexual assault, it opens the door to numerous people & scenarios. Of course, sexual assault can open the door still to others still being involve, but I feel...not so much.

 

[maxfactor]

I really wonder if they would even be able to prove sexual assault because it was so long before they found her. Anyone know anything about this kind of thing?

 

[Sillybilly]

Triple thanks, I believe this case is blown wide open if there is NO sexual assault as this is what the LE originally gave as the reason!

<snip>

I'm going to be a tch picky here ... LE did not give "sexual assault" as the reason. It has been reported that LE has said either for "sexual purposes" or "nefarious purposes". If VS was taken to be handed over to a 3rd party (i.e. child trafficking), then it is possible that no sexual assault occurred and her death was not intended as a part of the abduction. (There is however that statement out there to the effect that TLM walked away from the car when the assault occurred, but I don't believe it was specified "sexual" assault.)

If VS was not taken for sexual/nefarious purposes, then of course we are left to wonder why she was taken, was her death intended, and who wanted VS killed or would benefit from her death.

 

[Dee10]

<snip>

I'm going to be a tch picky here ... LE did not give "sexual assault" as the reason. It has been reported that LE has said either for "sexual purposes" or "nefarious purposes". If VS was taken to be handed over to a 3rd party (i.e. child trafficking), then it is possible that no sexual assault occurred and her death was not intended as a part of the abduction. (There is however that statement out there to the effect that TLM walked away from the car when the assault occurred, but I don't believe it was specified "sexual" assault.)

If VS was not taken for sexual/nefarious purposes, then of course we are left to wonder why she was taken, was her death intended, and who wanted VS killed or would benefit from her death.

Thanks Sillbilly you're right and of course they couldn't give sexual assault as a reason without proof, so they used something that could be ambigous like "nefarious". Of course ruling out direct sexual assault, but they were leading to some kind of sexual nature IMO, would be internet pictures...but how or why did she die? Was it for a snuff movie type thing? I can't forget he posted "good things are coming my way" that very day, which I took as having a financial motive vs. sexual. Interesting & you're right with their wording.

 

[gardenia]

(nurse sleuth's quote snipped by me)In my opinion, and clearly in that of the police, there is something that does not make sense, and it would seem there is some level of at least knowledge on the part of JG and TM in this case. It is my understanding that TM failed a part of the lie detector test when asked if she had any prior knowledge that TS would be taken that day. Those tests are highly accurate, and the fact she stormed out of it, as opposed to staying and retaking it in order to proove her innocence makes me question this even further.

Of course now that they have gone and gotten engaged, and Ive even heard a rumour they are married with the intention of having a formal wedding in the fall, add that to seeing some of the posts on fb from her, where she is telling ppl to go to the market to get jams because the market is so wonderful, really adds to my suspicons, and definitely to my feelings that TMs reactions are far less than normal, and shouldnt be overlooked. Who can think about getting married if you just lost a child to murder?

So I guess to answer the question do I feel more people are to be charged, yes I do! With all these key players however, the question of who, is open for debate I suppose.[/QUOTE]


(snipped by me) ... nurse sleuth, i really think you have hit the nail on the head!! things don't add up here & something was way off from the beginning. i won't be surprised in the least if there are more people arrested in this case - i don't think this was simply revenge against TM by TLM, there has to be more to it. TLM may have been put up to this - maybe on the threat of something happening to TLM or her mother. so who could be behind it all? it MUST be drug related... gang related... biker related (cha - i think your theories should be re-explored!)

 

[puppyraiser]

I just can't see bikers taking and killing a child to teach someone a lesson. Bikers can be a lot of things, but intentionally murdering children isn't typically their style, generally adults are the focus of their revenge. At least that's my limited understanding. I did know Boxer (John M) and some of the people he hung around with but hadn't seen him in well over 10 yrs. If TLM, and others besides MR, were involved with taking Tori and wanted to keep her captive until such time as a point was made, then perhaps it's possible the others involved were bikers. Chax3 correct me if I'm wrong but I think your theory is that Tori was taken to keep M.H. from testifying (or along those lines) based on the timing of the date (April 8th) and the current court case going on in London?

The police did state that Tori was deceased within hours of being taken so either something went horribly wrong (if we go with the captive theory) or her demise was the intent all along. There are no other conclusions we can draw based on the information we've been privy to so far. What we need to look at is who would gain the most based on each theory.

Who would gain from her intentional death? Bikers- not likely. TLM- possibly for revenge. JG-maybe to quiet her. MR-who knows.
Who would gain by kidnapping her and keeping her captive for ransom or to prove a point? TLM-likely going back to the revenge motive. Bikers-M.H. would still be testifying. TM and/or JG-maybe for money.

A third possibility is the Karla/Paul Syndrome (my term for lack of anything better) where some sick fantasy was played out by two people who never would have dared if their paths had not crossed. Tori could have been slipped a date rape drug and, if she had survived, may not have remembered anything happening at all, other than going with TLM to see some dogs or whatever was used to lure Tori away. By saying this, I am not necessarily implying that MR was the other party involved just that TLM fits into this theory as well. I'm on the fence regarding MR's involvement.

TM's comments still have me baffled: drop Tori off in a remote field, someone is trying to make a point, why protect one child and not the other? (Not direct quotes but similar statements were made). Those seemingly innocent statements made weeks before any arrests or discovery of the remains do not appear so innocent now. IMO

TLM is definitely a main player in this case as she fits into all three theories, connecting the dots to everyone else is not quite so easy. Why rat out MR and no one else?

 

[jhulford]

I really wonder if they would even be able to prove sexual assault because it was so long before they found her. Anyone know anything about this kind of thing?

It's almost impossible to destroy seminal DNA, luckily. If any is present on underclothing and/ or that carseat if they ever find it, then that part can be laid to rest.

 

[maxfactor]

It's almost impossible to destroy seminal DNA, luckily. If any is present on underclothing and/ or that carseat if they ever find it, then that part can be laid to rest.

Thanks! I'm very glad to hear that, although the lack of seminal DNA wouldn't necessarily rule out sexual assault either i guess.

 

[tambini]

If indeed others are involved, or linked somehow to Tori's initial disappearance, how long do you figure LE would wait to lay charges? Would they "hold" onto evidence hoping to gather more, even though say, they had quite enough to substantiate charges?
Or would they lay the charges(whatever they may be) as things unfolded?

I only ask because as much as I believe others are involved, I begin to doubt my own beliefs. The more time that goes on, the more my doubt increases.

 

[Sillybilly]

If indeed others are involved, or linked somehow to Tori's initial disappearance, how long do you figure LE would wait to lay charges? Would they "hold" onto evidence hoping to gather more, even though say, they had quite enough to substantiate charges?
Or would they lay the charges(whatever they may be) as things unfolded?

I only ask because as much as I believe others are involved, I begin to doubt my own beliefs. The more time that goes on, the more my doubt increases.

There won't be any pre-determined timeframe tambini. LE will continue to investigate until such time as they are satisfied other are NOT involved, or until such time as they have enough evidence against any others who MAY be involved. If and when LE believes they have enough evidence, they will take the file to the Crown who will determine if there is or isn't enough evidence to proceed.

For example, even though TLM and MTR are currently the only ones charged with the actual murder, if another party or parties arranged it or contracted it, they would also be charged with the murder as if they had done the actual killing. As there is no statute of limitations on murder, that person or persons could be charged years down the road, if that is how long it took the evidence to unfold.

 

[antiquegirl]

I've always wondered about the fact that LE refused to apologize to TM and about this quote from Const. Maitland:

" ... everyone and everything is suspect until we determine or can rule it out otherwise."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/23/stafford-search.html (May 23)

While I realize that LE seldom does the apology thing, in the case of the mother of a murdered child - after arrests have been made - wouldn't you think they'd make an exception? If only for public relations in a sensitive situation? There's an off note here, to my ears.

MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

I've always wondered about the fact that LE refused to apologize to TM and about this quote from Const. Maitland:

" ... everyone and everything is suspect until we determine or can rule it out otherwise."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/23/stafford-search.html (May 23)

While I realize that LE seldom does the apology thing, in the case of the mother of a murdered child - after arrests have been made - wouldn't you think they'd make an exception? If only for public relations in a sensitive situation? There's an off note here, to my ears.

MOO

I think Cst Maitland's statement was VERY telling about LE's stance in this regard, and I don't think their PR will suffer one iota in this particular case. LE obviously formed an opinion early on when they were aware of the combination of JG's history, TM's polygraph indicating she was not totally forthcoming, her various inconsistencies/lies, her odd mannerisms, etc. I believe she was told "I've been doing this job longer than you've been alive, and I've never seen a mother act like you" (paraphrased from memory). I don't think anyone who considers the facts logically could blame LE for having zeroed in on TM when they had no other suspects to consider at that time and her behaviour was so out of the ordinary, and I don't believe an apology will ever be forthcoming.

 

[antiquegirl]

I think Cst Maitland's statement was VERY telling about LE's stance in this regard, and I don't think their PR will suffer one iota in this particular case. LE obviously formed an opinion early on when they were aware of the combination of JG's history, TM's polygraph indicating she was not totally forthcoming, her various inconsistencies/lies, her odd mannerisms, etc. I believe she was told "I've been doing this job longer than you've been alive, and I've never seen a mother act like you" (paraphrased from memory). I don't think anyone who considers the facts logically could blame LE for having zeroed in on TM when they had no other suspects to consider at that time and her behaviour was so out of the ordinary, and I don't believe an apology will ever be forthcoming.

ITA with everything you wrote. That was my point exactly.

 

[Kamille]

I think Cst Maitland's statement was VERY telling about LE's stance in this regard, and I don't think their PR will suffer one iota in this particular case. LE obviously formed an opinion early on when they were aware of the combination of JG's history, TM's polygraph indicating she was not totally forthcoming, her various inconsistencies/lies, her odd mannerisms, etc. I believe she was told "I've been doing this job longer than you've been alive, and I've never seen a mother act like you" (paraphrased from memory). I don't think anyone who considers the facts logically could blame LE for having zeroed in on TM when they had no other suspects to consider at that time and her behaviour was so out of the ordinary, and I don't believe an apology will ever be forthcoming.

Couldn't agree with you more here SillyBilly. IMO, TM is not LE's favourite person...by a long shot. She obstructed this case with her behaviour and wasted a lot of LE time, money and effort because of it. I still don't believe she's involved but I think she got her back up early and it impaired the relationship between them and made her a main suspect in their eyes. I'm sure they had a hard time getting past this and might have focused more resources on TLM earlier had it not been for TM and her unusual behaviour. They will not apologize for a situation that should never have occured in the first place I'm sure.

As for the biker theory, if this was some kind of kidnap to scare MH from testifying, it obviously didn't work. He did testify and to my knowledge, no other member of Tori's family has felt at risk in any way during the trial so I personally have to discount this theory altogether.