My Appeal to IDI

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by SuperDave, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what would had to have happened in order for your theory to be the correct one? The killer would have to hold her down WHILE he was making the garrote on her body, THEN he'd have to strangle her with one hand while using his other two hands (yes, you read that right!) to manually separate her labia enough to jab the end of the paintbrush in while he was doing it. AND, he'd have to achieve the monumental feat of bisecting her body so that her lower body was facing up (consistent with the penetration angle) while her UPPER body was facing down! I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me.
     
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  3. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    Come again?... :eek:hwow:
     
  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    That's right. Majority IDI opinion holds that JB was alive and conscious while she was molested and strangled. But the "intruder" would need three hands to hold her down while he tied the garrote onto her neck, because we know (thanks to her hair in the knots) it was not made beforehand.

    THEN, he'd have to twist her body so that her lower body was facing upward while her lower body was facing downward, since the garrote would have to be applied from behind, while her vaginal injury (from THAT night anyway) was inflicted at a penetration angle from above.

    THEN, he'd have to manually open her labia to insert whatever it was he used, which would require both hands.

    This guy would need more arms than a Hindu god!
     
  5. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    I'm not sure how you arrived at these conclusions, care to elaborate? Is your interpretation of the injuries supported by the AR &/or expert opinions? If so, how?
     
  6. TroyinTX

    TroyinTX Member

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    There is a very easy answer to this:


    There was no intruder.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    You bet I do!

    1) The garrote. Since JB's hair was found tied into the knot at the back of JB's neck, that means that it was tied onto her, not made prior to her being there. Just how likely does it seem that she would complacently allow him to do this? THEN, he'd have to strangle her from behind, since the knot was behind her.

    2) The molestation. JB's outer labia were not scratched or damaged, so whatever object was inserted was not merely shoved into her. With girls of that age, the labia stay closed unless manually separated. That means that one of the intruder's hands had to hold her labia open while his other hand inserted the object (whatever you think that was.) Again, would a live, conscious JB allow a stranger to do any of that?

    3) And this is most pressing of all. The Intruder Theory (or, perhaps more accurately, the Lou Smit theory) holds that the intruder was strangling her from behind while molesting her at the same time in some kind of horrible "game." But, as I've shown, she would have to be lying on her stomach for him to strangle her AND lying on her back for him to have molested her and her vaginal injury to match the penetration angle. To do that, he would have needed to "twist" her body so that her head was facing down while her legs were facing up.

    So, let's count how many arms this guy would need to do all of this:

    At least 1 to hold her down.

    2 to tie the garrote around her neck.

    2 to hold her vagina open and molest her.

    That's FIVE arms. Even if I were to allow (and I DON'T) that he used a knee to hold her down, he'd still need at least THREE. Hey, were their any Greek mythological monsters or nefarious Hindu gods bopping around Boulder at Christmas of '96?

    You'd better believe it, Mama2JML!

    The autopsy report itself shows that JB's hair was tied into the knots. The AR and photos also show the knot and handle at the back of her neck. That's one.

    The AR described the injured area of JB's vagina as being at the "7:00 position." If you look at a clock-face head-on, you'll see that 7:00 is down and slightly to the left. As Cyril Wecht pointed out in his book, that's consistent with a right-handed person either inserting their finger or the paintbrush handle with JB on her back. Add to that: what I said a few paragraphs above about needing to separate the labia of a female that young is taken from John McCann, a top child abuse expert who also worked on the case. That's two.

    Anything you want to know, just ask me. That's what I'm here for.
     
  8. Chelly

    Chelly Well-Known Member

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    SuperDave:

    I am 100% a RDI and a fan of Super Dave, but what if someone who is an IDI suggested there were two intruders?
     
  9. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    (respectively snipped)
    Hi, SD. It's good to see you back, and hopefully finishing up on getting your much anticipated book published.

    I agree with most of what you've said in the above post. But I have to disagree with the above snipped portion -- even if it came from a doctor/expert. From the AR, it says:
    On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch.
    That indicates to me that there might be either a bruise or an abrasion on the outer labia. In fact, not knowing the orientation of the 1" x 3/8", we might be able to infer that the 3/8" is from the width of the paintbrush. I would point out also that this injury on the right labia majora would coincide with the 7:00 position that (from AR) "appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen."
     
  10. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    IDI has trouble enough explaining how ONE intruder could do all the things they are supposed to do without leaving an evidence trail a blind man could follow. The idea that TWO or more guys tromped through the house without a trace not only defies common sense, it defies belief.
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Those buggers at the publishing company want it perfect. After five years, I don't care if it's perfect!

    Good catch, otg. I goofed in my wording. The expert did not say that there was no marking on the outer labia; that was my mistake. It doesn't really change anything he said, though, does it? They'd still have to separate her labia to get inside.

    (I apologize to all if I seem to be breezy in my description of these horrid acts, but if I'm not blunt, I'll never get across what I'm saying.)

    Also, your find brings up something that I've often mentioned, just not here, since it's not germane to the issue (not yet, anyway): that the person who inflicted the genital wound seemed to be fumbling.
     
  12. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    Could the faint violet coloration be from the previous injury? I've always thought a child jabbing her forcefully with an object would have no judgement and would have inflicted more damage. The previous injury maybe, but not that night.
     
  13. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    Bruising goes through "stages", as most of us have seen on our own bodies. healing bruises are "yellowish/brown/purple" The fresher ones are violet. The coroner would be able to tell whether the bruises were acute (happened at or near the time of death) or chronic (happened previously). And dead bodies do not bruise, so she was alive when it was inflicted.
     
  14. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    Im amazed that while there are now 39489239834 theories for RDI there can only be one IDI theory.

    I don't believe it happened like that at all. I believe that it is IDI but I do not believe at all that it happened in that manner.
     
  15. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    I'm not sure where to begin... :no:
    Whatever, I'll roll with it.

    She didn't have a choice anyway you dice it. Regardless, I concur with OTG & his analysis of the AR. McCann also spoke of bruising on JonBenet's inner thigh, consistent with a forceful separation of the legs. (The Bonita Papers, was that your source for McCann's statement?)

    Hmmm, this doesn't sound familiar. Nope, doesn't ring a bell. It's not EXACTLY (or even kinda, sorta, remotely) the IDI majority's POV. You haven't described Smit's train of thought well, either.

    I guess those extra arms account for some of Kolar's "unique", unsourced DNA profiles. :drumroll:

    I'm really having difficulty understanding your portrayal of "the IDI majority". Your arguments do not accurately describe the majority, or even the minority, of IDIs with whom I engage in case discussion.
     
  16. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    To be fair Mama, Dave has spoken to a lot more IDI here than you and he even used to BE IDI.

    And there have been a lot of IDI through here over the years.
     
  17. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

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    A small rant here: When Watergate happened, when WMD justified entry into a war, when one learns that DA AH buried the GJ True Bill and placed it in a safe, don’tcha feel lied to by those whose ambitions/fears exceeded their integrity? For so many years it seemed since there was no indictment, and they found foreign DNA (then not specified that it was tdna), plus a blanket exoneration occured (not really an exoneration, since no one was charged!), most would feel it was certainly an intruder. I thought that previous to the January announcement of the GJ results. Then, to pursue what those who’ve been involved with the case have said, I read and studied as much as possible. Now firmly in the RDI camp. But it’s so much easier to believe we are never misled by politicians. Until one day what is true rears its head. Likely we’ll never know the full truth, yet I appreciate what Alan Prendergast said in a Westword column: “But every once in a while, a flash of something dark and brutal and inexplicable, like all child murders, can be glimpsed through the rubble.” All moo
     
  18. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    Right. So now not only is open ridicule de rigueur, but those IDI who hold a different opinion to some amorphous, unidentified 'majority' don't really count.

    Makes for brilliant, incisive discussion, eh.
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SuperDave,
    You have such a vivid imagination. IDI can spin the sequence of events to suit the IDI theory. Not so difficult to do.

    e.g. Intruder assaults JonBenet, she starts to struggle and scream, intruder whacks her on the head, then proceeds to ligature strangulation and accompanying cleanup and forensic staging.

    In the AR, section Vaginal Mucosa all but spells out that JonBenet had been assaulted with the paintbrush handle. Anyone care to comment on the Coroner's ending sentence: Acute inflammatory infiltrate was not seen?

    For cross reference in the AR this is also listed in section Final Diagnosis: VI. Abrasion and vascular congestion of vaginal mucosa

    Note that term Abrasion.


    Without hearing Coroner Meyers explicit interpretation of his Cause Of Death, it is possible that what he thinks killed JonBenet and what many RDI and IDI think killed JonBenet might be two different things?

    What do you think happened first the paintbrush injury or JonBenet being dressed in the size-12's?

    .
     
  20. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    Not sure I said that, I was merely pointing out that Dave is well-versed in the standard IDI arguments.

    Everyone is more than welcome to put forward their points of view here.
    The crime hasn't been solved, nobody is right.

    Also keep in mind, there are plenty of RDI theories that fit into your "amorphous majority", so don't get too upset.
     
  21. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me, Scarlett. I was hoping to see someone defend the Lou Smit theory, since he's the fountainhead for a lot of IDI "evidence."

    Enlighten me, Scarlett. That's why I'm here. To paraphrase Michael Jackson, show me how funky strong is your fight.
     

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