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My guess on who they are and why no one is looking for them

Discussion in 'Mystery couple murdered South Carolina 1976' started by UncoolNegated, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. UncoolNegated

    UncoolNegated Member

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    I've read about the mystery couple from Sumter County and like a lot of people it tickles my brain and frustrates me.

    I share the surprise that many people have regarding why the mystery couple's loved ones have not found them.

    Recently a possibility regarding that matter jumped into my mind: their friends and relatives did not look for them because those friends and relatives already believe they know what happened to them.

    Many people believe that the mystery couple were not American nationals and many think they were from Canada, partly because the name "Jock" or "Jacques" is French and Canada has a large French contingent. However that avenue has yielded no results.

    What if the mystery couple were foreigners to the USA but from South America? That could explain why their family never looked for them.

    South America during the 1970s was a continent where the public suffered a lot of government repression. There are thousands of people who simply disappeared without a trace, most of which were believed to be murdered by South American governments.

    In fact I think that if two of your loved ones disappeared at that time you might actually assume that the government abducted them and killed them. If you did assume that and were confident in your assumption, you might not explore other possibilities.

    That might not sound right to a lot of people but since government forced disappearances were so common in South America in the 70s you might assume that your missing loved ones met a violent fate at the hands of Pinochet or someone like that as opposed to what really happened to the mystery couple.

    To be clear, I wonder if the mystery couple, who are believed to be non-Americans are from South America. I wonder if their relatives didn't look for them because for some reason those relatives lumped the mystery couple in with the countless thousands who went missing during the 70s during the political repression.

    I know that people will say this: "but they disappeared in South Carolina, not South America." However I don't think that matters.

    I think the mystery couple were from South America, their family wasn't entirely aware of their itinerary to travel to the USA in the days well before social networking, and their family, unaware they were in the USA, assumed that their disappearances were simply part of the disappearances that were common in those days in Latin America.

    Maybe their pics can be found on the walls of the disappeared.
     
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  3. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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  4. momtolil

    momtolil New Member

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    I always thought that they looked like they could be from Argentina. They are very beautiful with distinct features and coloring there, just like the mystery couple.
     
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  5. redmeli

    redmeli New Member

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    Thank you for your comment. I think this is exactly why their families did not look for them. Please see my reasons at http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-South-Carolina-1976-6&p=6093793#post6093793 I would be interested to know what you think.

    I also believe in my gut that Sumpter LE know or have reason to believe they were assassinated, which might explain why LE didn't look too hard for the killer/s. The ballistics could also be faulty, or a red herring, or the gun could have been used by someone else, then returned to the owner.

    Despite who killed them or why, I believe they are indeed Maria and Cesar, kidnapped and detained in Argentina. JMO. Also, I don't believe that trying to figure out the jewelry or clothing helps in their identification. They likely purchased most of these items in thrift shops in the US. To me the tell-tale signs that they are not American or Canadian are her body hair and the man's dental profile, indicative of elaborate procedures that were likely not done in the US. I don't believe they were aimless hitchhikers from poor backgrounds, just refugees running low on funds and trying to conceal their identities for good reason.
     
  6. dogperson

    dogperson Member

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    The photos look identical to the post-mortems, to me at least. Especially her.
     
  7. 8truthseeker8

    8truthseeker8 New Member

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    Redmeli,

    Wow, I mean...... WOW!

    I have following this case for awhile, scouring through tons of pictures of missing persons and I have to say, I think that you got it! I mean I really think that you do!!! I pulled up the pics you posted on the other link and the postmortum pics and put them side by side and it just totally blew my mind.

    So where do you go from here??? Is there anyway to find out 100% ????? I will continue to lurk because again, I really think that you are onto something.
     
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  8. 8truthseeker8

    8truthseeker8 New Member

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    I totally agree. If it is not her then it is her twin.........
     
  9. dogperson

    dogperson Member

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    I know I have seen some posts about knowing that Maria is dead and that she gave birth to a son before her death, but I really wonder about the accuracy of that. She looks just like the female victim, and if you picture Cesar with longer hair and no glasses, I think he looks very much like the male victim, especially the mouth. How they ended up in SC is a mystery, but it would explain a lot, such as why nobody ever identified them.
     
  10. redmeli

    redmeli New Member

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    I wish I had time to follow up on this, but it is just not possible right now. At one time Reannan was doing her own research, but she hasn't posted lately. I think Maria's family may have submitted DNA, but they are primarily interested in locating the child she supposedly had, as they believe Maria to have died in the detention center. I'm not convinced that it was her that was pregnant. There were many Maria's detained, and one with very similar surnames. Maria's mother may still be living. She was very active in the Mothers of the Plaza group that protested for so long to draw attention to the missing. Also, Cesar has a brother, Eugenio, who I believe now lives in Germany. I ran across his email at one time, but didn't have the nerve to email him. Eugenio actually testified at von Wernich's trial, to the nature of his previous friendship with von W. and his inquiries to von W. about Cesar's whereabouts. So, there is info still out there, if anyone wanted to do the research and find the links. It would be helpful to find someone to translate the documents, as Google translate doesn't do such a good job, probably due to the subtle differences in Spanish spoken in different countries. I would be glad to share my links with anyone interested, though some may no longer be good.
     
  11. UncoolNegated

    UncoolNegated Member

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    For me this is it. The photos match and there is a certain probability to it that I find very convincing.

    Maria and Cesar went missing in 1976 in May.
    The mystery couple were found in early August of 1976.
    The photos match up reasonably well.

    Now what are the chances that TWO missing people who associated with one another would match two corpses found side by side a couple months after their disappearance?

    I don't know if this will be solved or what the politics involved are but something seems fishy to me.

     
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  12. UncoolNegated

    UncoolNegated Member

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    Okay I read over Redmeli's post and think this might be a good theory:

    - The mystery couple are Maria Marta Vasquez and Cesar Lugones two people who resemble the sketches/corpses and people who were last seen in May 1976
    - Maria and Cesar were abducted by the Argentine government and in this theory they were released into exile based on Cesar having a connection that could help get him and his wife out of incarceration
    - The couple were exiled out of the country and ended up in South Carolina for reasons that are not clear
    - They were then killed by a civilian murderer or perhaps killed for political reasons on August 9th, 1976

    This is not my own theory but a viewpoint I share and have come to based on reading over a lot of posts.

    I think this theory has strength for several reasons:

    - It explains why the corpses have never been identified as Maria and Cesar are assumed to be dead at the hands of the Argentine government and presumably their families aren't looking for them in South Carolina
    - The chances of two missing people who vanished simultaneously matching in appearance to two corpses found side by side a short time later and for those corpses to be other people seems inherently improbable to me
    - This is especially the case since the dates match up - the corpses were found about 11 weeks after the disappearance

    Weakness of the theory:

    - Maria was pregnant and there is no mention of the Jane Doe being pregnant

    However lots could happen in 11 weeks including a miscarriage. I'm not a doctor but I don't think being imprisoned, being mistreated, and traveling great distances is good for a pregnant woman. I think it might increase the chances of a miscarriage.

    Another weakness:

    - Maria was reported to have given birth to a son in January 1975

    For this theory to hold water, that report would have to be false of course.

    Missing people can certainly resemble unidentified remains and for it to be just a coincidence. However two missing companions both resembling side by side corpses found a short time after the disappearance seems soooooo improbable to me.
     
  13. UncoolNegated

    UncoolNegated Member

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    I have the nerve to email him....I'll be tactful, sensitive, reasonable, and clear.

     
  14. KarlK

    KarlK New Member

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    I never bought the French Canadian connection either, there are just too many aspects of the case that tend to disprove it. Although I don't have French Canadian ancestry myself half of New England does. In school I knew many people with French Canadian surnames, and many of them still have ties to Quebec and New Brunswick. Also nowadays my work takes me there several times a year and I have numerous friends and acquaintances up there.

    First of all the two victims don't look like French Canadians because French Canadians, due to their unique ancestry (Breton, Norman, Irish, Scottish, German and a bit dash of Native American) do not look different than the typical "Caucasian". They are also not prone to wear Indian jewelry, certainly not as much as Hispanic people from Latin America are, and women shave their legs and and underarms scrupulously.

    But the biggest clue is that the victims were not reported missing. If they had been reported missing the Mounties, who have access to all police reports in Canada, would have had it on file, and yet they did not. In my personal experience missing persons in Canada are sought after even more vigorously than they are here, with more police and community resources being allocated for this purpose.
     
  15. KivaSupporter

    KivaSupporter Inactive

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    http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/trial-to-begin-in-684577.html

    Perhaps this is Eugenio? He is living in Baden, Germany.

    Mr. Eugenio Lugones, president of the Argentine Circle of Baden-Wuerttemberg eV welcomed those present.

    You could use Kontakt on the left and ask how to contact him.
    Just a suggestion.
     
  16. q64ceo

    q64ceo Member

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    I talked to a friend who I know from another internet community. He lives in Argentina. I asked him to take a look and this was his reply to me

    Edit: I have decided not to take any sides in Argentina v Canada. I have my opinions, but I do trust my friend. So I will just recuse myself from further involvement in this argument
     
  17. kpdx

    kpdx Jane Doe was discovered Aug. 14, 1977 outside of E

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    i am so glad to see someone is staying the course on the south america connection! i brought this up in 2009 (thread #4) and was completely ignored. i think the photos of jacq and jane, both from ME and at the scene show a lot of similarities to pictures from the Desaparecidos walls.

    looking at the crime scene photos, IMO, its a pro hit....they were executed.

    has anyone talked directly to LE about possible connections to S. America? or, alternatively, thought about contacting some of the webmasters for desaprarecidos websites and asked to put up pictures of jacq and jane?
     
  18. kpdx

    kpdx Jane Doe was discovered Aug. 14, 1977 outside of E

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  19. kline

    kline New Member

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  20. Robin Hood

    Robin Hood New Member

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    It's probably been mentioned but wouldn't DNA give the country and region of birth. I know testing on Roman remains over here can sometimes pinpoint a resonable area to go on.
     
  21. Reannan

    Reannan Seek Brotherhood, Cherish Solitude

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    Last Summer, I sent a lenghty letter to the current Sumter County Coroner, along with pictures and the text from the WS post from Redmeli that IMHO explains how Maria and Cesar made it to the United States from Argentina. I never heard anything back - not even a "thank you for your interest" letter. The lack of a response is really annoying, as a tax paying South Carolina citizen. I am not giving up.... sometime in June of this year, I hope to make a trip up to the area, speak to the coroner face to face, and visit the grave site, and the site where they were killed. I will share pictures with all of you here on WS's. I also made contact with a representative of the Desprarecidos group from New York. They also were less than helpful.....but, it was a volunteer, so take that for what it is worth. We have a new poster here on WS's who speaks Spanish, and is attempting contact with the Argentina group. I am so convinced that Jock and Jane Doe are Cesar and Maria that I need to see resolution, or I need to see them ruled out so that I can move on to another angle. This case can.... and WILL be solved. It haunts me.
     

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