Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
I hope to compile something to post on my fb page about this today, asking everyone to please share it.

I truly believe there is no reason why this young couple couldn't be identified, especially in this day and age with the internet and social media. Surely, there is someone out there, maybe not in the US, but somewhere who will remember them.

Let's flood social media today for them!
 
I’ve spent the better part of the day falling into all kinds of rabbit holes as a result of this case. One search led to another and so on. After seeing a few things, here is a really wild and crazy idea...

What if Jock Doe was an illegitimate child of someone of extreme wealth and in a leadership role? Someone who didn’t want to tarnish his reputation. Someone who didn’t want his son to know about “Jock”.

Do you think that someone with enough wealth and prestige could keep his DNA private?

I don’t buy the theory that Jock and Jane were from well off families. At his age, why would he have needed so much dental work? It’s just my opinion that if he had been raised in a well off family, he would’ve had pristine teeth. I think his parents would have made sure that as a child he had been taken care of.

My reason for my wild and crazy idea is that I ran across someone who I believe has enough features that he looks like he could be the father.
 
Canaille: I highly doubt it, but in the absence of evidence, I won't entirely rule anything out. I do agree with you on one point, which is that we shouldn't necessarily assume they were from an affluent background.

Not being from a wealthy background would explain certain things, like why no one seems to have ever recognized them. If Jock was in fact the son of a Canadian doctor (as claimed by the KOA witness), I would think that someone in the last 44 years would have noticed that Dr. So-and-So's son vanished in the 1970s and was never seen or heard from again. [In this regard, I find the idea of them being South American refugees from Chile or Argentina somewhat compelling. The hole in that theory is that most South Americans at the time did not learn English in schools]. Regardless of their nationality, if they were from modest backgrounds with unstable/dysfunctional families, it seems more plausible to me that they could have left home without really being missed and perhaps fell in the wrong crowed.

A few other thoughts:

1) I think DNA is probably the best chance to crack this case. Even if there's not a very precise match, knowing where their ancestry will help to narrow down the parameters of the search.

2) Does anyone know how well the cases were reported in French-speaking Canadian media? It seems possible to me that perhaps the case wasn't sufficiently publicized there because of language barriers. (I can't find any statistics for the 1970s, but in the 2010s, only about 40% of Quebec residents have English proficiency).
 
retrometro said:
Canaille: I highly doubt it, but in the absence of evidence, I won't entirely rule anything out. I do agree with you on one point, which is that we shouldn't necessarily assume they were from an affluent background.

Not being from a wealthy background would explain certain things, like why no one seems to have ever recognized them. If Jock was in fact the son of a Canadian doctor (as claimed by the KOA witness), I would think that someone in the last 44 years would have noticed that Dr. So-and-So's son vanished in the 1970s and was
Click to expand...
retrometro said:
Canaille: I highly doubt it, but in the absence of evidence, I won't entirely rule anything out. I do agree with you on one point, which is that we shouldn't necessarily assume they were from an affluent background.

Not being from a wealthy background would explain certain things, like why no one seems to have ever recognized them. If Jock was in fact the son of a Canadian doctor (as claimed by the KOA witness), I would think that someone in the last 44 years would have noticed that Dr. So-and-So's son vanished in the 1970s and was never seen or heard from again. [In this regard, I find the idea of them being South American refugees from Chile or Argentina somewhat compelling. The hole in that theory is that most South Americans at the time did not learn English in schools]. Regardless of their nationality, if they were from modest backgrounds with unstable/dysfunctional families, it seems more plausible to me that they could have left home without really being missed and perhaps fell in the wrong crowed.

A few other thoughts:

1) I think DNA is probably the best chance to crack this case. Even if there's not a very precise match, knowing where their ancestry will help to narrow down the parameters of the search.

2) Does anyone know how well the cases were reported in French-speaking Canadian media? It seems possible to me that perhaps the case wasn't sufficiently publicized there because of language barriers. (I can't find any statistics for the 1970s, but in the 2010s, only about 40% of Quebec residents have English proficiency).
Click to expand...

I would agree that they weren’t necessarily affluent. That would explain a lack of family resources for a search, and a lack of publicity. If they are from outside the US, that could explain the enormous difficulties a family of modest means could face - a possible language barrier, lack of funds for travel, problems finding the right public officials, among many other issues.

I also tend to think they were from a South American country undergoing a wave of repression, either fleeing the political situation or seeking their fortunes in a new country. I have met both Argentinians and Chileans of their generation and before who did speak excellent English. I have a distant relative who was killed in the Dirty War in Argentina. The surviving family members speak English fairly well. It may be that some families or individuals were more motivated to learn English than others, or that English was readily available in some schools.

According to the DNA Doe Project, their DNA is now being sequenced, so let us hope that will lead to some answers.
 
I woke up this morning even more disturbed by this case when I thought about this that I read in the media links last night...

BBM

"Both Lt. Gamble and Mr. Batson have since died and the KOA has closed. Ms. Moore, however, tracked down the former KOA owners. They told her they kept detailed records on campers - including names, addresses and even photographs. Those records, however, had been destroyed when their home burned."
 
Canaille said:
I woke up this morning even more disturbed by this case when I thought about this that I read in the media links last night...

BBM

"Both Lt. Gamble and Mr. Batson have since died and the KOA has closed. Ms. Moore, however, tracked down the former KOA owners. They told her they kept detailed records on campers - including names, addresses and even photographs. Those records, however, had been destroyed when their home burned."
Click to expand...

It always seemed as if local LE did not investigate the case properly. I think the KOA owners were questioned at the time, though. The lack of pursuit of the suspect with the murder weapon was also inexplicable. Even then, possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number - I think it was a big .357 revolver with its serial number removed - is a Federal crime. I think someone was protecting the perpetrator, and critical information was concealed.
 
Warwick1991 said:
It always seemed as if local LE did not investigate the case properly. I think the KOA owners were questioned at the time, though. The lack of pursuit of the suspect with the murder weapon was also inexplicable. Even then, possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number - I think it was a big .357 revolver with its serial number removed - is a Federal crime. I think someone was protecting the perpetrator, and critical information was concealed.
Click to expand...

and that altered firearm was held by a convicted felon, barred from holding any firearm in the State of South Carolina. A convicted felon who couldn't exactly recall how the illegally held firearm came into his possession.

A big supporter of LE here, but I'll use Ricky Ricardo to ask them again:
upload_2020-8-10_13-56-11.jpeg

JMHO YMMV LRR
 
I haven't been able to sit down and read all the threads on this case and not so sure that I will be able to... so, basically I'm thinking out loud here...

I did see that one person posted that one drawing of Jane reminded them of Susan Lucci. To me, there is something about her that looks more like Sophia Loren (who I believe is Italian).

I've seen in the descriptions of their clothing that listed the type of shoes she was wearing, but what about him? I haven't seen anything about his shoes.

There is a photo online that appears to be the crime scene. Does anyone know if that's a real photo or a staged picture? Not the close up pic, but the one with both bodies in it.

Did the KOA campgrounds at that time have cabins?

Wouldn't LE have asked to see the list of guests that week at the KOA?

To me, this seems more than a robbery or carjacking. Though, I do suspect Jock would've had a bit of cash on him. They had to have paid for the KOA and their food on their travels. Surely, one or both would've had a driver's license on them if they were driving. If this had been a robbery, I think the watch and jewelry would've been taken. The fact that they were both shot identically is not just a robbery in my opinion. And if they had a vehicle, what happened to it? Scrapped?

What about the FOIA? What, if anything, would LE release if info was requested?

I think someone wanted them dead and not identified, but why?
 
If they didn't want them identified, my thoughts are, they would not have shot them 3 times in locations excluding the head and face, which could distort identifying. Maybe they were sending someone a message....
Their faces are untouched...
 
Warwick1991 said:
I also tend to think they were from a South American country undergoing a wave of repression, either fleeing the political situation or seeking their fortunes in a new country. I have met both Argentinians and Chileans of their generation and before who did speak excellent English. I have a distant relative who was killed in the Dirty War in Argentina. The surviving family members speak English fairly well. It may be that some families or individuals were more motivated to learn English than others, or that English was readily available in some schools.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information, Warwick! I stand corrected.

Canaille said:
To me, this seems more than a robbery or carjacking. Though, I do suspect Jock would've had a bit of cash on him. They had to have paid for the KOA and their food on their travels. Surely, one or both would've had a driver's license on them if they were driving. If this had been a robbery, I think the watch and jewelry would've been taken. The fact that they were both shot identically is not just a robbery in my opinion. And if they had a vehicle, what happened to it? Scrapped?
Click to expand...

Agreed. I've always had the sense that the murders were somehow gang/organized crime related. A simple robbery or carjacking doesn't make sense.
 
Canaille said:
I did see that one person posted that one drawing of Jane reminded them of Susan Lucci. To me, there is something about her that looks more like Sophia Loren (who I believe is Italian).
Click to expand...

The Carl K drawings have some Susan Lucci in them but I agree the earlier versions are more like Sophia Loren. Ever since I first saw this couple the Italian ancestry has stood out to me as more likely than is ever noted. I think that's because I cruised the Atlantic for 10 days as a young teenager on a fancy Italian liner called the Raffaelo. It was just before that ship went out of service, and not too long before these Does were found. There were people all over that ship who shared the general appearance of this couple. And I don't have to guess at that because I retain plenty of pictures...somewhere. I stumble upon them every few years.

European has seemed more likely than South American to me. I remember European soccer players and tennis players from the '70s who looked like Jacques. But there must be some reason they focused elsewhere.

Also, while looking at this case recently I saw a paragraph that helped me piece this together: 198UMSC

"On August 9, 1976, a man living in the sticks between Sumter and Florence heard a car scuttling down a narrow frontage road connecting Interstate 95 to S.C. 341. Someone climbed out. Gunshots echoed in the early morning, then the car raced back onto the highway."

I had long assumed the killer turned off onto Locklair Road from the north end and took care of the couple before turning around toward I-95. However, if the hermit heard distinct "scuttling" along the frontage road that means the car came from the south end. Locklair Road is noisy as heck. I can attest to that. It was so bumpy and unkept I was going 10-15 mph throughout, primarily to protect my car. Anyone going normal speed on that road is going to jostle all over the place and make a racket. Now I can understand why the hermit was alerted to something strange going on.

The road is 1.2 miles, if I remember correctly. Upon seeing that paragraph I now think the hermit "living in the sticks" must have been somewhere near the center of Locklair, not far from where it is close to I-95. I have posted those photos and a video previously in this thread, regarding where the road shifts very close to the freeway. There is quite a bit of tree cover in that area. A hermit could sleep in that segment and be confident that probably less than 1 night in 100 would a car pass on Locklair Road late at night.

I think the killer kept driving on Locklair toward the north to get further away from I-95 and any potential view from the freeway. Once he was close enough to the end of Locklair he got out and took care of them. Then he could turn left and dash away toward I-95. There are entrance and exit ramps on that side, as opposed to nothing on the south side.

The hermit would have been able to glance down the dirt road at the lights of the car, then see it stop. After hearing the gunshots he could watch the car resume and lights turn left toward the freeway. There is another home not far away from that intersection, perhaps a few hundred yards in the same direction the car headed after the murders. That is likely the home where likewise the shots were heard. But they would not be able to identify where they came from.

If the killer drove Locklair in that direction then I think this was a very local crime and not back and forth on I-95 from somewhere else. There is not much of anything on the south end of Locklair. Maybe the couple were spending the night in their vehicle and the killer detected the vulnerability and an easy mark. It wouldn't take much of anything to pretend to be the property owner, etc., while telling them it was illegal to spend the night there. Then size up the situation and betray.
 
Awsi Dooger said:
The Carl K drawings have some Susan Lucci in them but I agree the earlier versions are more like Sophia Loren. Ever since I first saw this couple the Italian ancestry has stood out to me as more likely than is ever noted. I think that's because I cruised the Atlantic for 10 days as a young teenager on a fancy Italian liner called the Raffaelo. It was just before that ship went out of service, and not too long before these Does were found. There were people all over that ship who shared the general appearance of this couple. And I don't have to guess at that because I retain plenty of pictures...somewhere. I stumble upon them every few years.

European has seemed more likely than South American to me. I remember European soccer players and tennis players from the '70s who looked like Jacques. But there must be some reason they focused elsewhere.

Also, while looking at this case recently I saw a paragraph that helped me piece this together: 198UMSC

"On August 9, 1976, a man living in the sticks between Sumter and Florence heard a car scuttling down a narrow frontage road connecting Interstate 95 to S.C. 341. Someone climbed out. Gunshots echoed in the early morning, then the car raced back onto the highway."

I had long assumed the killer turned off onto Locklair Road from the north end and took care of the couple before turning around toward I-95. However, if the hermit heard distinct "scuttling" along the frontage road that means the car came from the south end. Locklair Road is noisy as heck. I can attest to that. It was so bumpy and unkept I was going 10-15 mph throughout, primarily to protect my car. Anyone going normal speed on that road is going to jostle all over the place and make a racket. Now I can understand why the hermit was alerted to something strange going on.

The road is 1.2 miles, if I remember correctly. Upon seeing that paragraph I now think the hermit "living in the sticks" must have been somewhere near the center of Locklair, not far from where it is close to I-95. I have posted those photos and a video previously in this thread, regarding where the road shifts very close to the freeway. There is quite a bit of tree cover in that area. A hermit could sleep in that segment and be confident that probably less than 1 night in 100 would a car pass on Locklair Road late at night.

I think the killer kept driving on Locklair toward the north to get further away from I-95 and any potential view from the freeway. Once he was close enough to the end of Locklair he got out and took care of them. Then he could turn left and dash away toward I-95. There are entrance and exit ramps on that side, as opposed to nothing on the south side.

The hermit would have been able to glance down the dirt road at the lights of the car, then see it stop. After hearing the gunshots he could watch the car resume and lights turn left toward the freeway. There is another home not far away from that intersection, perhaps a few hundred yards in the same direction the car headed after the murders. That is likely the home where likewise the shots were heard. But they would not be able to identify where they came from.

If the killer drove Locklair in that direction then I think this was a very local crime and not back and forth on I-95 from somewhere else. There is not much of anything on the south end of Locklair. Maybe the couple were spending the night in their vehicle and the killer detected the vulnerability and an easy mark. It wouldn't take much of anything to pretend to be the property owner, etc., while telling them it was illegal to spend the night there. Then size up the situation and betray.
Click to expand...

I also think the killers were local, with our unidentified couple in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, if they were of Italian descent, they could be from Argentina, as well as Italy itself. In the late 1800’s, many people immigrated to Argentina from Italy, along with other European countries. Argentina has a large population of people of Italian descent.

BTW, I was on the sister ship of the Raffaello, the Michelangeo, in the 1960’s. They were beautiful vessels, part of a bygone era of great liners.
 
Has anyone noticed the similarities between Jane Doe and Isabelle Bourgeot? Missing since 1985 from Canada (Quebec) when she was 32. She has similar birthmarks (5 instead of 2).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 200 more.
Total: 3,885 (members: 201, guests: 3,684)

Online statistics

Members online
201
Guests online
3,684
Total visitors
3,885
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,256
Messages
17,966,295
Members
228,734
Latest member
TexasCuriousMynd
Back
Top