NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sep 2012 #2

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MilanaCapricorn

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Some misc. points in response:

1) First, the autopsy report does report a trace amount of alcohol in Faith’s system though no indication of whether that came from the apt. or from sipping some earlier at the Thrill.

2) One odd sidenote to all this is that the initial on-scene write-up for the crime included this odd (to me) sentence: “The apartment had lots of clutter scattered around, but no obvious signs of a struggle.” Rather bizarre, given both Faith’s condition and the fact that everything else I’ve ever read about the crime certainly implies, as one would expect, that there was a struggle. AND YET neighbors heard very little, implying that indeed there was no prolonged violent struggle.

3) I’ve always only been able to explain the above in my own mind by imagining that 2 perps went to the apt. for a ‘partytime’ & sex (perhaps even intending to find both women there) — I think it’s clear from the action and choice of weapon there was never any plan for murder. When Faith resisted I believe one perp manhandled her/ controlled her, stuffing something down her throat or clasping her mouth to keep her silent while the other attempted rape. Either Faith kicked, gouged, or scratched him violently, or alternatively bit his organ as he was forcing oral sex, and that sparked the rage/impulse to grab the nearest item (rum bottle) and hit her in the head. (There’s plenty of other things I can’t explain, but that’s just how I picture the crime going down.)

4) Finally, a lot of what you’re asking about, again the police no doubt already have answers to, and it is very aggravating how little has been shared with the public.

thank you so much for that, almost exactly my sentiments! ( with a little twist of course) ;)
 

MilanaCapricorn

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Some misc. points in response:

1) First, the autopsy report does report a trace amount of alcohol in Faith’s system though no indication of whether that came from the apt. or from sipping some earlier at the Thrill.

2) One odd sidenote to all this is that the initial on-scene write-up for the crime included this odd (to me) sentence: “The apartment had lots of clutter scattered around, but no obvious signs of a struggle.” Rather bizarre, given both Faith’s condition and the fact that everything else I’ve ever read about the crime certainly implies, as one would expect, that there was a struggle. AND YET neighbors heard very little, implying that indeed there was no prolonged violent struggle.

3) I’ve always only been able to explain the above in my own mind by imagining that 2 perps went to the apt. for a ‘partytime’ & sex (perhaps even intending to find both women there) — I think it’s clear from the action and choice of weapon there was never any plan for murder. When Faith resisted I believe one perp manhandled her/ controlled her, stuffing something down her throat or clasping her mouth to keep her silent while the other attempted rape. Either Faith kicked, gouged, or scratched him violently, or alternatively bit his organ as he was forcing oral sex, and that sparked the rage/impulse to grab the nearest item (rum bottle) and hit her in the head. (There’s plenty of other things I can’t explain, but that’s just how I picture the crime going down.)

4) Finally, a lot of what you’re asking about, again the police no doubt already have answers to, and it is very aggravating how little has been shared with the public.

thank you so much for that, almost exactly my sentiments! ( with a little twist of course) ;) The only thing I'm curious about is whether KR was involved in the attack ( cant get away from the voicemail though, if every piece and everything is important, then the voicemail has to be), or managed to survive or witness it and is scared to death of who she knows it is, in which case her actions would all be understandable... I'm pretty certain Faith was not alive when KR left at 4:30am, and though the times are a little varied here and there, if two men go back to the apartment with them around 2:30-3am, and the thuds are heard 3:00-3:30am, an hour seems sufficient in a panicked time, and believe me, whoever did this was panicked to try and clean, stage, figure out an alibi etc etc etc...if we only had a picture we would probably be able to deduce the TOD, or maybe an emt or officer made a statement about the body... but either way, premeditation IMO is nowhere plausible in this case, regardless who may have done it....
 

MilanaCapricorn

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I guess I should have been more specific. Whomever committed this crime would have had a very short window, but yet he/she took the time to clean themself up; maybe even a shower. Also sat down and wrote a very bizarre note, and didn't make any noise, or leave a trace of evidence going down the stairs or into the parking lot. TY just dosen't really fit the bill.
I agree if there wasnt any noise, but there was. I live in an apartment building in NYC. Born and raised in manhattan and from the projects to the co-ops noise is all you hear. We have a saying; "if you dont hear noise. Call the cops because your neighbor probably isn't breathing " in other words we can differentiate sound on many levels. From a laugh. To a cry, to a scream, furniture, fights Babies. Running water, rain, gunshots, and jack hammers...And I wouldn't discount the neighbors statement or the time...all of these pieces make sense when we put them together . So neighbor hears "thud" that sounds like a heavy drop. Or an end table flipped. Stop and imagine that at 3:30am...with the TV on cause you cant sleep ( that's called being a new yorker) those sounds require weight and force and well let me see. Maybe someone was moving in ? ...that's a heavy sound and here's where I agree...it would take atleast 2 people to silence aaudible pleas for help or screaming and cause yet such severe violence simultaneously...someone would have heard something...and they did...and yet we question the timeline? By we. I mean some lol. Anyway I agree regardless when the note was written the killer was clearly comfortable in the surroundings they caught themselves in enough to THINK and CLEAN/STAGE..." we" often suggest on these threads that it's possible someone was watching and waited for KR to leave...I think the more important question is who is the most positive that she wouldn't be back?
 

MilanaCapricorn

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I have a theory and I'd like to know your opinions on it.

My theory:

1. The red herring is EVERYBODY we suspect and have public information about. No doubt in my mind karina was there but also no doubt in my mind that this was NOT some coordinated ridiculous mastermind plot to kill faith, there is no evidence of that and honestly these players are not that smart. In fact everything suggest they were very close friends. Karina no doubt is lying, but I will explain below her motives for lying.

2. The bag/note : We know that the bag was from a restaurant that would have been the only one open around the time they left the thrill. Because the suspects DNA is on it, and the pen, I think there are several ways those words that seem so odd and off put could have a simple explanation. One would be it could be the perp is communicating with someone without wanting to speak prior to the offense. To whom and when, could be a million things and a million motives. I think regardless of when it was written I have a strong suspicion that the bag was left by the body for one of two reasons. 1 to cast blame on Karina or 2 a way of Karina trying to leave a trail of evidence for the police knowing that the perp had handled the bag or written it at some point.
3. I do believe that there were 2 men and Karina and Faith in that apartment when she passed away. I think it was either two men they met at the club and then were invited to Karinas apartment, or at the restaurant, or possibly even people they knew in passing but weren't close to the girls, it could have been as simple as people they flirted with occasionally in passing and just happened to run into that night at some point and there were plans made verbally to meet after the club at Karinas apartment. Could've been for romantic motives could have been to have a drink, smoke a blunt, either way why they went is irrelevant.
4. I think once inside the apartment sex was wanted or promised or assumed and something went wrong because these men were not someone the girls really knew, I think Faith was on her period and Karina felt powerless. Here is where the voicemail comes in...I listened to it again several times...though "rosie" seems to be the aggressor there could be several reasons for this. Fear for her own safety could be one, also she could be speaking to the men, but what I think is most clear is that sex was wanted or promised and denied by faith and this is when things went very very wrong. If KR was fearful, and especially if she witnessed the murder if her friend, I suppose survival would be a high and natural priority and personally I would say or do anything to stay alive.
5. The tampon. I think her tampon was taken out once the perp realized she had her period after taking off her underwear, either he prematurely ejaculated or KR was raped beside faith and the perp ejaculated on the bed beside her.
6. The t shirt over her head I think was done by KR at some point because her friend was already dead at the point they were still in the apartment and possibly threatening or sexually assaulting KR and she couldn't look at her. I think this would be a natural action of someone terrified of what just happened.
7. I think the woman that heard the noise in the apartment was the time of her death, some time later the perps leave and KR is in a panic. She is texting her ex from Faith's phone and calling him on hers because I think she was fearful to leave her apartment by herself I think she wanted a man to come and make her feel safe. I think a million things must have been going through her mind and by that time she just needed to get the hell out of there.
7. 911 call: I think the use of the word unconcious is really important, I think KR absolutely was hoping that she was, or maybe when she left prior thought she was. I'm not sure she knows shes dead necessarily. Her refusal to touch the body etc etc etc. She knows she needs to call but is still fearful and at the same time processing that her friend is dead. I think shes in shock.

Conclusion: we are giving a bunch of people especially KR and ETJ way too much credit. KR is lying I believe and continues to do so because she fears for her safety, these people are her acquaintances at the least and at the time knew where she lived, they just murdered her best friend in front of her. They could possibly know much more about KR then we know, they could have taken something from the apartment, threatened her family or her friends, they might be very very bad guys...but I dont think she's lying to save herself, or protect someone she knows. I think it's to protect herself. She wasnt sick at the club, they left because they had plans and something with people she didnt know went extremely south and it was impulsive and sloppy and unplanned and careless. I think LE knows this and that's why they have an open communication with KR. I think they are protecting her as well while looking for a way to obtain more information and or DNA. I kind of think Karina already let LE know...and they are trying to obtain the DNA and or find the perps. At 20 years old I'm not sure I would have been strong smart enough, or brave enough having witnessed my best friends murder and knowing the people knew where I lived to immediately call 911 and explain what happened. And once you start lying you have to contiue...
Welp that's my theory, and the only way all of the pieces fit in my mind and make logical sense...
Would love feedback!
 

scadagirl28

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I have a theory and I'd like to know your opinions on it.

My theory:

1. The red herring is EVERYBODY we suspect and have public information about. No doubt in my mind karina was there but also no doubt in my mind that this was NOT some coordinated ridiculous mastermind plot to kill faith, there is no evidence of that and honestly these players are not that smart. In fact everything suggest they were very close friends. Karina no doubt is lying, but I will explain below her motives for lying.

2. The bag/note : We know that the bag was from a restaurant that would have been the only one open around the time they left the thrill. Because the suspects DNA is on it, and the pen, I think there are several ways those words that seem so odd and off put could have a simple explanation. One would be it could be the perp is communicating with someone without wanting to speak prior to the offense. To whom and when, could be a million things and a million motives. I think regardless of when it was written I have a strong suspicion that the bag was left by the body for one of two reasons. 1 to cast blame on Karina or 2 a way of Karina trying to leave a trail of evidence for the police knowing that the perp had handled the bag or written it at some point.
3. I do believe that there were 2 men and Karina and Faith in that apartment when she passed away. I think it was either two men they met at the club and then were invited to Karinas apartment, or at the restaurant, or possibly even people they knew in passing but weren't close to the girls, it could have been as simple as people they flirted with occasionally in passing and just happened to run into that night at some point and there were plans made verbally to meet after the club at Karinas apartment. Could've been for romantic motives could have been to have a drink, smoke a blunt, either way why they went is irrelevant.
4. I think once inside the apartment sex was wanted or promised or assumed and something went wrong because these men were not someone the girls really knew, I think Faith was on her period and Karina felt powerless. Here is where the voicemail comes in...I listened to it again several times...though "rosie" seems to be the aggressor there could be several reasons for this. Fear for her own safety could be one, also she could be speaking to the men, but what I think is most clear is that sex was wanted or promised and denied by faith and this is when things went very very wrong. If KR was fearful, and especially if she witnessed the murder if her friend, I suppose survival would be a high and natural priority and personally I would say or do anything to stay alive.
5. The tampon. I think her tampon was taken out once the perp realized she had her period after taking off her underwear, either he prematurely ejaculated or KR was raped beside faith and the perp ejaculated on the bed beside her.
6. The t shirt over her head I think was done by KR at some point because her friend was already dead at the point they were still in the apartment and possibly threatening or sexually assaulting KR and she couldn't look at her. I think this would be a natural action of someone terrified of what just happened.
7. I think the woman that heard the noise in the apartment was the time of her death, some time later the perps leave and KR is in a panic. She is texting her ex from Faith's phone and calling him on hers because I think she was fearful to leave her apartment by herself I think she wanted a man to come and make her feel safe. I think a million things must have been going through her mind and by that time she just needed to get the hell out of there.
7. 911 call: I think the use of the word unconcious is really important, I think KR absolutely was hoping that she was, or maybe when she left prior thought she was. I'm not sure she knows shes dead necessarily. Her refusal to touch the body etc etc etc. She knows she needs to call but is still fearful and at the same time processing that her friend is dead. I think shes in shock.

Conclusion: we are giving a bunch of people especially KR and ETJ way too much credit. KR is lying I believe and continues to do so because she fears for her safety, these people are her acquaintances at the least and at the time knew where she lived, they just murdered her best friend in front of her. They could possibly know much more about KR then we know, they could have taken something from the apartment, threatened her family or her friends, they might be very very bad guys...but I dont think she's lying to save herself, or protect someone she knows. I think it's to protect herself. She wasnt sick at the club, they left because they had plans and something with people she didnt know went extremely south and it was impulsive and sloppy and unplanned and careless. I think LE knows this and that's why they have an open communication with KR. I think they are protecting her as well while looking for a way to obtain more information and or DNA. I kind of think Karina already let LE know...and they are trying to obtain the DNA and or find the perps. At 20 years old I'm not sure I would have been strong smart enough, or brave enough having witnessed my best friends murder and knowing the people knew where I lived to immediately call 911 and explain what happened. And once you start lying you have to contiue...
Welp that's my theory, and the only way all of the pieces fit in my mind and make logical sense...
Would love feedback!
IDK if everyone mentioned is a red herring. I do agree some names don't get mentioned as much . I would love to know what came of the forensic testing on the car registered to RE.
I think the note was a diversion .
During a altercation and rape , why would you text and access Facebook ?
Totally Moo.
Welcome MC !!
 

Webthrush

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I have a theory and I'd like to know your opinions on it.

My theory:

1. The red herring is EVERYBODY we suspect and have public information about. No doubt in my mind karina was there but also no doubt in my mind that this was NOT some coordinated ridiculous mastermind plot to kill faith, there is no evidence of that and honestly these players are not that smart. In fact everything suggest they were very close friends. Karina no doubt is lying, but I will explain below her motives for lying.

2. The bag/note : We know that the bag was from a restaurant that would have been the only one open around the time they left the thrill. Because the suspects DNA is on it, and the pen, I think there are several ways those words that seem so odd and off put could have a simple explanation. One would be it could be the perp is communicating with someone without wanting to speak prior to the offense. To whom and when, could be a million things and a million motives. I think regardless of when it was written I have a strong suspicion that the bag was left by the body for one of two reasons. 1 to cast blame on Karina or 2 a way of Karina trying to leave a trail of evidence for the police knowing that the perp had handled the bag or written it at some point.
3. I do believe that there were 2 men and Karina and Faith in that apartment when she passed away. I think it was either two men they met at the club and then were invited to Karinas apartment, or at the restaurant, or possibly even people they knew in passing but weren't close to the girls, it could have been as simple as people they flirted with occasionally in passing and just happened to run into that night at some point and there were plans made verbally to meet after the club at Karinas apartment. Could've been for romantic motives could have been to have a drink, smoke a blunt, either way why they went is irrelevant.
4. I think once inside the apartment sex was wanted or promised or assumed and something went wrong because these men were not someone the girls really knew, I think Faith was on her period and Karina felt powerless. Here is where the voicemail comes in...I listened to it again several times...though "rosie" seems to be the aggressor there could be several reasons for this. Fear for her own safety could be one, also she could be speaking to the men, but what I think is most clear is that sex was wanted or promised and denied by faith and this is when things went very very wrong. If KR was fearful, and especially if she witnessed the murder if her friend, I suppose survival would be a high and natural priority and personally I would say or do anything to stay alive.
5. The tampon. I think her tampon was taken out once the perp realized she had her period after taking off her underwear, either he prematurely ejaculated or KR was raped beside faith and the perp ejaculated on the bed beside her.
6. The t shirt over her head I think was done by KR at some point because her friend was already dead at the point they were still in the apartment and possibly threatening or sexually assaulting KR and she couldn't look at her. I think this would be a natural action of someone terrified of what just happened.
7. I think the woman that heard the noise in the apartment was the time of her death, some time later the perps leave and KR is in a panic. She is texting her ex from Faith's phone and calling him on hers because I think she was fearful to leave her apartment by herself I think she wanted a man to come and make her feel safe. I think a million things must have been going through her mind and by that time she just needed to get the hell out of there.
7. 911 call: I think the use of the word unconcious is really important, I think KR absolutely was hoping that she was, or maybe when she left prior thought she was. I'm not sure she knows shes dead necessarily. Her refusal to touch the body etc etc etc. She knows she needs to call but is still fearful and at the same time processing that her friend is dead. I think shes in shock.

Conclusion: we are giving a bunch of people especially KR and ETJ way too much credit. KR is lying I believe and continues to do so because she fears for her safety, these people are her acquaintances at the least and at the time knew where she lived, they just murdered her best friend in front of her. They could possibly know much more about KR then we know, they could have taken something from the apartment, threatened her family or her friends, they might be very very bad guys...but I dont think she's lying to save herself, or protect someone she knows. I think it's to protect herself. She wasnt sick at the club, they left because they had plans and something with people she didnt know went extremely south and it was impulsive and sloppy and unplanned and careless. I think LE knows this and that's why they have an open communication with KR. I think they are protecting her as well while looking for a way to obtain more information and or DNA. I kind of think Karina already let LE know...and they are trying to obtain the DNA and or find the perps. At 20 years old I'm not sure I would have been strong smart enough, or brave enough having witnessed my best friends murder and knowing the people knew where I lived to immediately call 911 and explain what happened. And once you start lying you have to contiue...
Welp that's my theory, and the only way all of the pieces fit in my mind and make logical sense...
Would love feedback!

Well, I agree with the first sentence: “The red herring is EVERYBODY we suspect and have public information about.” …but not so much after that ;)

I still think it is possible that associates of Takoy Jones are involved, but other than that I don’t think any of the names we know (including KR) are involved in the crime — indeed it’s hard for me to imagine that any of them are involved and that police, in 7 yrs., haven’t been able to pin them down. Police may have some other interesting names, but none that we know anything about.

And I still believe the lynchpin to the case is the DNA, plain-and-simple (some sleuthers want to think THAT is a red herring) — none of the folks we know of have matched that DNA, but find a match and you’ll find the perp.

one sidenote: my recollection (don’t have time to search for it though) is that police determined the Time-Out bag actually came from a visit there the day before the crime, not the morning (nor early prior evening) of the crime.
 

MilanaCapricorn

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Yes I agree...the bag could've already been in the apartment, but I just dont see these people who we know about planting any DNA on the bag, pen, bottle, and semen...it seems too implausible to me and I dont think these kids are that smart because the lies KR tells are so lacking in intelligence...and KR was already dating many other men, I find it hard to believe ETJ would take that out on faith and why then? If they had evidence on any of them to suggest it was planned together they would have cracked I think....but who knows I think one thing everyone agrees on whether you believe in malice or not is KR knows. Period IMO
 

MilanaCapricorn

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Question
... did they ever try to use the dna or semen (I know it gross but ) with a scent dog? To see a possible path the perp went when he left the apartment? I dont even know if its possible but?
 

GottaHaveFaith

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Well, I agree with the first sentence: “The red herring is EVERYBODY we suspect and have public information about.” …but not so much after that ;)

I still think it is possible that associates of Takoy Jones are involved, but other than that I don’t think any of the names we know (including KR) are involved in the crime — indeed it’s hard for me to imagine that any of them are involved and that police, in 7 yrs., haven’t been able to pin them down. Police may have some other interesting names, but none that we know anything about.

And I still believe the lynchpin to the case is the DNA, plain-and-simple (some sleuthers want to think THAT is a red herring) — none of the folks we know of have matched that DNA, but find a match and you’ll find the perp.

one sidenote: my recollection (don’t have time to search for it though) is that police determined the Time-Out bag actually came from a visit there the day before the crime, not the morning (nor early prior evening) of the crime.

When you say “associates of Takoy Jones,” who exactly are you referring to? That sounds like a mediocre law firm that went under during a recession lol. Please be more specific when you make claims about people possibly being involved. Or don’t make those claims at all, if you don’t have information to support them. Not trying to be rude, but just prefer specifics over generalities.
 

raiders444

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"She wasnt sick at the club, they left because they had plans and something with people she didnt know went extremely south and it was impulsive and sloppy and unplanned and careless."

I liked a lot of what you wrote as a plausible theory, but I am highlighting this one part because what doesn't add up for me is how they would have arranged this hook up. If it was men they met at the club that night, LE has video of who came and left the club, and I am sure interviewed and collected DNA from all persons of interest there (at least I hope!). If it was someone else, I am sure LE looked through KR's and FH's text messages and phone call history. We live in a digital world now and I am sure if something was arranged it would have been through a text or call, or at least confirmed "hey we are leaving now, come over in an hour" or whatever. So LE would have a clear trail there to any perps that they were in contact with. This assumes if KR deleted texts that LE ws able to recover them through cell phone providers (unsure of the science behind that)

In a prior post of mine, I asked if it was possible to collect all cell phone #'s pinging from the location of their apartments between say 2 am and 6 am. This is a time most people are asleep and not moving around, so I thought if they could collect all these numbers from that area and work backwards from that, looking these people up, eliminating those that would not fit the phenotype or MO of a would be killer etc, we might have a small pool of possible men who were involved. But I was told that this sort of thing is very inaccurate, and back in 2012 would have been even more so. Maybe nowadays the technology is much better :(
 

nitram

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I have looked back through recent posts and did not see a mention of one of the note-related theories that I recently read on reddit. If this has been discussed then ignore but it seems to be the most plausible explanation for me.
The poster suggests that the note was written in two steps and was a communication between KR and FH. It is supposed that KR, in a jealous state, wrote to FH "I'm not stupid ," and that FH then responded on the same note "jealous." The poster has ideas about the cause of the friction.
 

tarheelslim

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I have looked back through recent posts and did not see a mention of one of the note-related theories that I recently read on reddit. If this has been discussed then ignore but it seems to be the most plausible explanation for me.
The poster suggests that the note was written in two steps and was a communication between KR and FH. It is supposed that KR, in a jealous state, wrote to FH "I'm not stupid *****," and that FH then responded on the same note "jealous." The poster has ideas about the cause of the friction.

I had considered this much earlier in these threads, but the fact is the pen had the same [male] DNA as the murderer on it. Also, I had assumed if it was written between the girls that it would have been light-hearted (doesn't sound unusual for drunk college friends to talk like that), I don't see any reason to assume that they were locked in conflict at the time.
 

MilanaCapricorn

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I liked a lot of what you wrote as a plausible theory, but I am highlighting this one part because what doesn't add up for me is how they would have arranged this hook up. If it was men they met at the club that night, LE has video of who came and left the club, and I am sure interviewed and collected DNA from all persons of interest there (at least I hope!). If it was someone else, I am sure LE looked through KR's and FH's text messages and phone call history. We live in a digital world now and I am sure if something was arranged it would have been through a text or call, or at least confirmed "hey we are leaving now, come over in an hour" or whatever. So LE would have a clear trail there to any perps that they were in contact with. This assumes if KR deleted texts that LE ws able to recover them through cell phone providers (unsure of the science behind that)

In a prior post of mine, I asked if it was possible to collect all cell phone #'s pinging from the location of their apartments between say 2 am and 6 am. This is a time most people are asleep and not moving around, so I thought if they could collect all these numbers from that area and work backwards from that, looking these people up, eliminating those that would not fit the phenotype or MO of a would be killer etc, we might have a small pool of possible men who were involved. But I was told that this sort of thing is very inaccurate, and back in 2012 would have been even more so. Maybe nowadays the technology is much better :(
I agree with you and appreciate this post. I'm just trying to remember how I was in college and I also lived in a college apartment complex, even though it was earlier , I knew people from the complex and in the neighborhood that I did not have text or call exchanges with but would hang out with from time to time. I really like the idea of checking the phones in the area that night though!
 

MilanaCapricorn

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I have looked back through recent posts and did not see a mention of one of the note-related theories that I recently read on reddit. If this has been discussed then ignore but it seems to be the most plausible explanation for me.
The poster suggests that the note was written in two steps and was a communication between KR and FH. It is supposed that KR, in a jealous state, wrote to FH "I'm not stupid *****," and that FH then responded on the same note "jealous." The poster has ideas about the cause of the friction.
Personally if the communication was between the girls I think they were communicating to eachother without speaking but not of eachother, but then how does the DNA get on the pen and the bag? That's always been my question
 

scadagirl28

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Personally if the communication was between the girls I think they were communicating to eachother without speaking but not of eachother, but then how does the DNA get on the pen and the bag? That's always been my question
. Premeditated and with directions to Faith and KR apartment. Possible ? Moo

one sidenote: my recollection (don’t have time to search for it though) is that police determined the Time-Out bag actually came from a visit there the day before the crime, not the morning (nor early prior evening) of the crime.[/QUOTE]
 

MilanaCapricorn

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. Premeditated and with directions to Faith and KR apartment. Possible ? Moo

one sidenote: my recollection (don’t have time to search for it though) is that police determined the Time-Out bag actually came from a visit there the day before the crime, not the morning (nor early prior evening) of the crime.
[/QUOTE]

This intrigues me quite a bit...My biggest issue would be how could they have determined the bag was from the day before? if so ( very possible) the perp could have written on it, grabbed it etc, but for someone unknown to the girls it seems utterly pointless, and a waste of time, when especially you would assume that person would want to get the heck out of dodge considering.... unless it was someone known to the victims, then as i had originally theorized, it could be a threat toward KR, or pointing the blame on her. If it was as I theorized she would not want to see the body, look at the body, go near it, or in her own words "I wont touch anything".., otherwise I don't see how the DNA got on the pen and the bag, I feel the timing of the bag is less important that direct evidence linking the DNA to the murder weapon and other objects. I really find it implausible that KR or anyone was that thrifty to get someones DNA all over everything and then be so reckless in every other thing... Is it possible LE got this information from KR? I don't see how else they could have obtained that information unless they cross refrenced some video from the Time-Out from the day before. And if they did get this info from KR...I would say at the best it's unreliable! Just IMO.

I don't think anything about this crime is premeditated. I think most evidence points to that, which is why I find it hard to believe that all this conspiracy about planting DNA evidence is kind of ridiculous. Could be someone they knew in passing, someone from the complex or neighborhood, could have been someone without a phone.

I wonder as a marijuana smoker myself, and someone who experimented heavily in college with drugs,(I also played division 1 basketball and these girls remind me so much of myself I think that's partly why it is so difficult for me to not take this case personal) anyway when I lived in the apartment complex of my college, me and my roommates would hang out with our marijuana dealer, he was from the neighborhood but did not go to our school. He never had a phone and was always easily accessible, if we walked around enough or drove around his neighborhood we could find him. Sometimes we would call another person to see if they were with him, and once he even ran from the police and hid in our apartment. I'm not saying this is the case, but I'm also not saying that it is out of the realm of possibility that it could have been someone they knew who didn't have a phone, or who they would have to meet and schedule things in passing. doesnt seem weird to me at all. If the person I am talking about decided to kill me, if they were going to base everything on the people I was in communication or contact with via phone etc...he would never be caught, and the only person at that time that knew him was my roommate. none of my teammates, none of my classmates, nothing... just a thought there. really want to know if everyone in the complex gave DNA samples...
 

Webthrush

Ohhh, and one more thing...
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Long ago I briefly mentioned the issue of “chimerism” on one of these threads (where a person contains multiple genetic DNA lines), but have never taken it too seriously for this case. But after this amount of time and this many males tested without a genetic match I do begin to wonder... The latest weekly “Futility Closet” podcast has a fascinating segment on chimeras and crime (or other issues), starting just past the 12-minute point here:
Podcast Episode 281: Grey Owl - Futility Closet
 

raiders444

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Unfortunately nothing new to report re: Faith's case, but while reading a news story about Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, I found this interesting quote from an FBI agent-

"Your biggest fear as an investigator is when the lead well dries up. So keeping it high profile, using the media to promote the investigation, talking to a lot of different jurisdictions – they’re doing anything and everything they can do to uncover more leads" (bolded by me)

Made me sad knowing that the CHPD has mostly given up with the media appeals and public pleas for info. I don't believe they did that this past September on the anniversary of her death. maybe they are out of leads and resources to devote to this case :(
 
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